Has a friend ever tried to convert you to Christianity?

This happened to me the other day. One of my good buddies goes on a rant about how I am "leading a lost, sad life" because I'm agnostic. I tried to brush it off, I said "Well you know, to each his own. I respect your views and would never put you down for simply being Christian." But my friend wouldn't let it go. He asks me why I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. I reply "What makes him the only son of God? Am I not one of God's children, and therefore the son of God as well?

He explains that Jesus worked miracles, turned water into wine, made the blind see. I reply saying that I believe Jesus was a great man who tried to stand up against an oppresive Roman government. I said that I'm sure that Jesus helped many of the poor and sick. He gave them something to believe in, he gave them hope and raised their spirits, therefore "healing" many people. I say that the whole miracle thing was probably an exaggeration by one of the 40+ writers of the Bible, which was written over the course of 1500 years, and translated and re-translated numerous times.

Then the motherfucker goes out on a damn hellfire and brimstone (or whatever it is) rant, telling me that if I don't accept Jesus before I die, that I will burn in hell for all eternity.

I stormed out of the apartment and went somewhere else. I just don't see why an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving God would send a good dude like me to hell. Although I don't believe in heaven or hell, it would be freakin sweet if Hitler is burning in hell as I type. I've had Christians tell me that anyone who is not baptized is going to hell. Why would their great God send a good person (as in one day I want a wife and kids, and I'll raise my kids to the best of my ability) like me to HELL. Give me a freakin break here!

It seems that Christianity has turned into the religion of judging-people-for-no-good-reason-assholes. What happened to "Only God can judge me"? Why the hell do some Christians feel the need to judge others for being different?


If you've had a experience like mine, please post. Also non-judgmental Christians are welcome to post, I've got nothing but love for you guys. I'm also intersted in this Christian idea that 'We are right and you are wrong, you must become like us or you'll burn in hell'. I mean, what parts of the Bible say stuff like that?

First of all, my cards on the table: I'm a universalist. I think there are many valid paths to one source. I'm perfectly cool with anyone who accepts Jesus as THEIR guide along the path, and think he makes a pretty decent one for SOME people. But I wholly reject the idea that one needs Jesus to have genuine and quality spirituality.

spaceyourbass said:

I just don't see why an all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving God would send a good dude like me to hell.

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This is really all you need to say. I've never heard a fundamentalist come up with a good answer to this.

I'm also intersted in this Christian idea that 'We are right and you are wrong, you must become like us or you'll burn in hell'. I mean, what parts of the Bible say stuff like that?

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Basically this is an amalgamation of two wholly unrelated ideas that made it into the present Christian Bible side by side:

1) The Hebrew Scriptures / Old Testament's prohibitions against idolatry and polytheism, delivered to the ancient Israelites -- 'You shalt have no God before me'

2) The Gospel of John, which is, by the way, THE ONLY Gospel to contain passages implying that Jesus is the only way to salvation. If any fundamentalist Christian throws scriptural passages at you which "prove" Jesus said he's the only way to salvation, look and see where the quote is from. Nine times out of ten it's from John.

Textual analysis of the oldest extant manuscripts of the Gospel of John, reveal that it's a veritable ransom note: these passages were almost certainly inserted later by a different author, who was likely trying to make it look like this book was saying something the original author didn't say. It's interesting to note that the GoJ was published in the form we know it at a time when the original Christian community was experiencing its first period of decline, approximately a century after Jesus was reported to have lived. My point is, it's a highly unreliable source, and could very well be a complete hoax. But it's the only leg fundamentalists have to stand on.

Note also that the Hebrew Bible was written millennia before the New Testament, in a different language, for a very different audience, and expresses a vastly different conception of the divine.

The bottom line is, being religious is all about reconnecting, including with other people. Some people fallaciously assume that a good way to connect with other people is to make everyone see things their way, because let's face it, it does feel incredibly sublime to meet someone who just fully clicks with your way of seeing the world. But this can't be forced, and those moments are so precious in part because they don't happen every day or with everyone you meet.

The best you can do is tell your friend that you value his friendship highly and find him a good person, but would appreciate if he'd leave the judgement up to God. I don't think bringing up the points I just went over, is likely to make much of an impact. (Though I could be wrong.)

Have I had friends try to convert me? Strangers, yes. Friends, no. Most devoutly Christian friends of mine who've heard me go on one of my spiritual talks don't dare to pull that with me, out of either respect, or fear, of what I'd have to say to them. I've been invited cordially to worship circles, I've typically politely but firmly declined, and that's been that.

As someone with not only many Christian friends, but who was pretty much raised by them: many times. Only Baptists and nondenominationals have given me any real trouble, though, and even most of them eventually take a live-and-let-live attitude with me once they see that I won't budge.

I was raised in the church, my Grandmother was a part of the Faith Assembly which got into troubleback in the 70's for their beliefs about medical care. A couple was indicted for murder when their child contracted an illness and they failed to take the child to the doctor believing that God would heal the child if he were a righteous person. So, although I was not personally involved in this church, my family was and that helped form my view of the church and Christianity as a whole.
I had a crisis of faith in my 20's and abandoned my Christian upbringing. I had joined the military and fought in two wars. I witnessed suffering, cruelty and death on a scale I never knew existed before. I could not reconsile a God who would allow suffering on the scale that humans do throughout the world. I thought God was supposed to be merciful and benevolent, and I found not a single shred of evidence that he even existed, let alone cared about our plight. I came home and began to ask uncomfortable questions, questions my chaplains and clergy were not easily able to answer. I would get answers like "God's will is not for us to question" or " God doesn't reveal his plan to us". These vague and evasive answers angered me and I said something like "Sounds to me like a piss poor exuse for a God that doesn't exist in the first place, from someone that really doesn't have a shred of a hope of a real answer to my question". I am now and remain an agnostic. My family thinks I am a lost soul, thats funny to me, I don't feel lost at all.
A few years ago, two missionaries showed up on my doorstep. People who do this predicate their mission work on the premise that you will humor them and put up with their witnessing and praying and whatever other ritualism their going to subject you to. So I told them, "I'll be happy to listen to you if you'll answer this. Have you had any one reject you today?" They both shook their heads indicating that they had. "Ok, I'll listen to you if you can truthfully tell me that when you walked away from their house, that you didn't judge them or make some remark to each other about that person going to hell." They both looked at each other and turned and left.
So, it seems that judgement is NOT reserved for god alone. I have long lost my tolerance for those who have no tolerance for people who think, believe and are different from themselves. I refuse to be assimilated into the mass of the mindless. If there is a god, he gave me a mind of my own to use as I see fit. Why would such a god, give me an intellect then ask me to deny it exists and subjugate myself to an ignorant point of view.
This why I have a bumpersticker that reads: " God, please save me from your followers"

The Bible clearly says...God made himself into human form, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ the son of God died on the cross to save us from our sins. Christ was the 'ultimate' sacrifice, cleansing all of our sins from us. Those who do believe in the aforementioned will go to heaven for the rest of eternity upon death.

God is omnipresent, meaning he is everywhere, always. Other than hell. If you don't believe Jesus Christ died on the cross, is the Son of God, etc., then you clearly don't want anything to do with God? You don't want to be in his presence, which hell is. In a way, "you sent yourself there".

I say that the whole miracle thing was probably an exaggeration by one of the 40+ writers of the Bible

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Miracles were recorded by more than just one author of the Bible, most of which correlate with others' writings.

Of course, who doesn't have experiences with judgmental, racist, sexist, or intolerant people from time to time? Everyone has a nitch on their personality, and for some people, judging based on religion is a past time. It's odd how much violence stems from religion, no?

You know (or believe) he isn't right, so why get so bent about it? This is one of the few cases where arguing with someone about it won't get anyone anywhere if they are not mentally able to grasp the concept that they may be wrong. If someone is closing doors, it's hard to make them open them. I've had several conversations with people looking to convert me, going door to door on campus even. I always get the same message from people who hold this close-minded idea and try to force it onto me -- I'm going to hell for not practicing Christianity and that's all there is to it, regardless of who I am, what I do, or my relationship with God. Many times, these people have trouble understanding Buddism, the idea of atman, or views stemming from Vedanta Society, or really anything that goes against their traditional thought.

If that sounds as wrong to you as it does to me, then you know that these are not the people you typically would try to reason with. It's best to understand that while you are mature enough to accept multiple paths, others may not be so well socially versed. Be pleased to know you were raised in a fashion that allowed you to question things that were fed to you, not everyone is so lucky. Just how I feel, at least.

@Jason: This thread isn't debating the validity of Christianity; rather, it is a discussion of people's experiences with people trying to convert them.

chainer3k said:

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If that sounds as wrong to you as it does to me, then you know that these are not the people you typically would try to reason with. It's best to understand that while you are mature enough to accept multiple paths, others may not be so well socially versed. Be pleased to know you were raised in a fashion that allowed you to question things that were fed to you, not everyone is so lucky. Just how I feel, at least.

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That's more or less how I feel. I have one friend whom I frequently engage on the topic of religion (he's what I'd call a "reaffirmed" Catholic, in that he's not a totally devout "born-again" type, but has reasserted his religion - good for him), and although we disagree, and often the ensuing arguments get quite heated, both of us are able to keep a cool head about it.

I guess what it comes down to is

1. The people you cross paths with;
2. The people you choose to socialise with;
3. How you interact with the people with whom you do choose to socialise; and
4. How others pursue the same

There is a variety of 'evangelical personality' that is entirely unrelenting and disrespectful of people and their right to choose for themselves. Evangelical personalities are not limited to Christianity, I've encountered evangelical atheists, people evangelical about multi-level marketing (think Amway), people on fire about politics, yoga, social and ecological positions just to name a few. The great majority of Christians in my life are of the open door variety rather than the zealous "witnessing variety".

A funny thing for me on being evangelized to become a Catholic again is that having engaged people on the subject I've often found that I know more about Catholicism then they do. (I'm amazed how many Catholics do not know the difference between the virgin birth and the Immaculate Conception or similar important distinctions.) Several protestant evangelical types I've encountered are only really familiar with a few passages of the Bible and haven't thought through their positions on them very well.

People "on fire" about converting people usually have an assumption that their message is so vitally important that it trumps all social considerations and regard opinions that contradict their message as dangerous or dishonest. Sometimes I don't engage them. Sometimes I decide it is a rare situation where I can allow myself to really fuck with someones head. I don't show disrespect for other people's spiritual tenets except in a situation where someone is at me relentlessly, in which situation I've discovered sacrilege can be quite fun.

I am often sincerely interested in the background of an evangelist's denomination if they have one. Right now I have a special interest in the influence of the Millerite disappointment on American Christianity. Also interested in Arminianism vs. Calvinism and similar things but when it comes to watching purported followers of the Nazarene I'm following a soap opera of sorts and very glad to be an onlooker not a participant. This applies to other religious positions as well.

I utilize 2nd hand data and accumulated wisdom on medicine, law, computers, consumer reviews, etc. To some extent I do the same in spirituality. If someone unknown to me approached me on the street or knocked on my door about a medical procedure or a computer program I'd wonder what the hell was the matter with them. I do wonder the same about door-to-door and street spiritual evangelists. If I was ever converted it would be by open door Christian friend rather than "on fire" zealot friends. Intense evangilization feels like pschological assault to me.

i used to be a christian, but i always had this nagging feeling that something wasnt quite right, the truth isnt there...
since then, i have studied every religion that i can, searching for that truth that eludes so many. i wont say that i've found it, but i think Baha'i is the most correct at the moment. for those who have never heard of Baha'i, it is the next of the abrahamic religions, following islam, which followed christianity, which followed judaism.

tathra said:

i used to be a christian, but i always had this nagging feeling that something wasnt quite right, the truth isnt there...
since then, i have studied every religion that i can, searching for that truth that eludes so many....

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^ I agree with this post up to where I cut it off. I grew up Christian, not really by choice but because it's how I was raised. Yes, for a short time as a young teenager I was even "that guy" who tried to convert everybody. But once I got into the real world and began thinking for myself the more I realized that Christianity wasn't the way for me. I too studied other religions and, instead of embracing their differences I began to notice their similarities. I thought to myself that if all these religions think they are correct who's to say that ANY of them are correct? After years of teetering on the brink of denial, I finally admitted to myself that I was an atheist. Boy, what a weight off my shoulders

EDIT: I forgot to really address the OP.

As far as people trying to re-convert me, I just smile, nod, and shrug them off. I don't even debate with them anymore because it's not like anyone is going to change the other's mind. Try not to let it get in the way of your friendship. But if he won't let it go just let him be. I'll save a spot in Hell for ya :D

I think what people worship today misses the point of what a christ was trying to say. Wasn't he trying to make people like him, through peace and understanding, not fear and force?

Just tell the guy the whole jesus thing is a story based on earlier figures. Never has been any archeological proof(publicly) of jesus really existing in material form. I think its always been an idea of sun worship. Jesus and 12 disciples=sun moving through the 12 signs of the Zodiac; how he, "the fish" Pisces, told everyone to go into the water house(man with pitcher), the House of Aquarius. The examples are endless. Like how Horus was born of "immaculate conception." All old astrology hidden knowledge worship.

Some think jesus was also a representation of a magic mushroom. Kind of makes sense when you look into it. Or its all about death worship and cannabalism. Eat the Flesh, drink the Wine. Worship the Execution Device. Too many different things to believe one.

My point is people shouldn't take a fictional story, written and edited by the Catholic Church, as The Truth. Its a very good guide, especially if you know what all the symbolism means, but not something that should close a person's mind off to other concepts. Religion sucks this way, and how most "christians" have no true idea how the process of life and death work. Just transformations, from one state of being to another, nothing more or less.

Side note: Know William Shakespeare placed his name in the Bible? Psalm 46: 46 words from the top, "shakes," 46 words from the bottom, "spear." lol.

A person doesn't really need any guide on their path anyway. They help for certain hurdles, but God exists in all things. All anyone has to do is listen to their own spirituality and live a positive life to be like God. A big problem with fundamentalist religion is having others make the decisions for them, killing self responsibility for those people to do something themselves.

We are each individuals existing as manifestations of infinite conscious freewill, and it is sad how fundamentalists don't even want to think of concepts like this.

God is Great and Loving, the Problem is Evil rules this planet at the moment.

I think being Agnostic is the intelligent choice. At least you're admitting the possibility that there could be something out there beyond your understanding, as opposed to believing in nothing at all.

capstone said:

I think what people worship today misses the point of what a christ was trying to say. Wasn't he trying to make people like him, through peace and understanding, not fear and force?

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Also this.

I had a friend try to make me "see the light" and become Pentecostal. People lying in the aisles of the church "speaking in tongues". Co workers (very casual friends) very sneakily try to convince me to become a Jehovah Witness (a couple of those).

tathra said:

i wont say that i've found it, but i think Baha'i is the most correct at the moment. for those who have never heard of Baha'i, it is the next of the abrahamic religions, following islam, which followed christianity, which followed judaism.

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i've never heard of Baha'i before. very interesting. thanks!

Methlehem said:

I think being Agnostic is the intelligent choice. At least you're admitting the possibility that there could be something out there beyond your understanding, as opposed to believing in nothing at all.

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Indeed. The thing that turns people off to agnosticism, I think, is that it requires a high tolerance for uncertainty. (Not that this is a bad thing to cultivate, in the least.) Saying 'I don't know' feels too disempowering to many people, whatever the issue may be.

capstone said:

Just tell the guy the whole jesus thing is a story based on earlier figures. Never has been any archeological proof(publicly) of jesus really existing in material form.

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I agree with most of this. However, I don't doubt that Jesus ever existed. I just don't buy the whole schtick that he was a metaphysical being and worked miracles and stuff.

Personally, I'm against him engaging in debate with his friend - I think it will only hurt the friendship. There is no way on earth that he will be able to change his mind one bit. He's better off just telling him to leave him alone about converting. The reason there is no winning of this argument is that the Christians main fallback is "faith". Sure they can't *prove* anything in the bible, but they have faith that it really happened. How can one argue with something they don't even have to prove.

I live in Cornwall. Where Christians are a dying breed.

(Infact I don't know any).

Spaced: As to your "friend's" points:

I) "Jesus was the only child of G-D.": Refer your friend to Numbers 23:19, "G-D is not mortal."

II)"Jesus worked miracles.": Refer your friend to Deuteronomy 13:4, "G-D grants the power of miracles to conmen to test the faith of True Believers."

Also, see Deut 5:3, which confirms that National Revelation and NOT miracles are the sign of G-D, "Covenant with you, not with your fathers."

III)"A person who does not accept Christ as their personal savior will burn in hell for eternity.": Hell is non-existent. Its rooted in the Hebrew word, "She'ol" which simply means "grave." "Gehenna" was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem's walls.

"You will go down into hell" equals "You will be buried in your grave," "You will burn in Gehenna (sic)" simply means you will be wasted, treated like garbage.

Then, these misconstrued words were tied into Greco-Roman mythology, like Hades," to give the "Fire and Brimstone" nonsense.

Christianity, no offence to its adherents, is a false religion. Entirely constructed on lies and mistakes. Not one iota about Jesus is verifiable from a time when both Jews AND Romans recorded everything. We have Roman soldiers birthday invitations but not one word on this person/deity who supposedly rocked an entire society.

Jesus perturbed the entire Jewish Priesthood, so much so that they lobbied Pontius Pilate for his arrest, trial and execution yet Jesus had merely 12 Apostles???

Jesus attracted multitudes and yet nobody anywhere saw fit to record even his name?

There is 1 alleged contemporary record, Flavius Josephus, the Jewish traitor. However this has been show to be a blatant forgery*. Negate the 1 forgery and nothing

*In Josephus ("Antiquities") the author supposedly mentions Jesus 1 time, for 2 sentences and utters.
,'(Per Jesus) if indeed one can label him a 'man' for he was the Messiah.'

Josephus was man who publicly labled the Roman Emperor Vespasian, his adopted father, as the long awaited Messiah. He mentions this dozens of times in this 20 volume work yet merely gives 2 sentences to Jesus?

Following his alleged mentioning of Jesus, he devoted 8 times as much space to a tale about a Roman of the Equestrian Order, Decius Mundus and how he had cuckholded a Roman nobleman!

"Spaced" mentioned "mistranslations" of Scripture. Until the Guttenburg Press Scripture was copied scribe by scribe from the original Aramaic and Greek, into a multitude of languages. As any billingual person can attest, when translating into even a closely related language you will ineivtably lose some very important context and understanding. Now consider translating into a totally unrelated language.

A great and oft related example is the issue of the "Virgin Birth," to borrow the Catholic terminology. This entire issue hinges on a tiny portion of Isaiah from the Old Testament. The original Hebrew predicts that the Messiah will be born of an "amah." Amah simply means, "Young female of marriagable age," which in Halacha (Jewish Law) means a female after her 1st menses, age 11 or 12.

Early scribes, translating this into the wider vernacular, Middle Greek, used a fitting Greek word. However, ths word has a dual meaning, in that it can denote a "Young woman of marriagable age" or simply a "Virgin."

Then, translating from Greek the word chosen was "virgin" so that within 2 centuries the "Immaculate Conception" took shape. This was also fostered by the Classical Greco-Roman mythoglocial belief in G-Ds being born in such circumstances.


Then, even a scribe working in the same language can have unimaginable issues to contend with. Until relatively recently many languages did not use punctuation or even spacing between words. This form is known by the Latin, "Scriptua Continua." It was prevalent in both Greek and Latin, as well as many languages using either alphabet.

The Codex Vaticanus is a great example. This 4th Century CE/AD work is in the afore mentioned "Scriptua Continua." You can actually see notation by various Scribes who worked on the piece where they castigate and denigrate one another for having taken great liberty in the contents, changing entire relevant portions to suit their subjective understanding.

A huge problem was that anyone who could copy their own name was often labeled a scribe, and many if not most were anything but literate. Copying things they often did not understand, in unpunctuated and unspaced form and of course you will end up with a highly incorrect text.

A great example of the problems one sees in Scriptua Continua is the following in English:

"G-Disnowhere."

That very short sentence can be seen in at least 2 VERY different ways:

"G-D is now here," or
"G-D is nowhere."

I could literally take up 100 threads here with huge textual errors in the New Testament relating solely to transcriptional gaffes, and easily twice that number with mistranslations.

The point? Christians are the last people who should be acting as if they have a handle on the "Truth," let alone the" ONLY Truth."

(Edited for spelling)

rachamim said:

G-D

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I don't understand why anyone would censor the word "god".

Is someone looking over your shoulder?