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A question for Christians- is anti-christianity offensive?

swilow

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Now please don't let this turn into a flamefest...I am really only hoping for views from Christians here.

The question may seem slightly circular; does a christian find antichristinaity offensive? For example, this song by death/black metal band Behemoth- called Christians to The Lions- is it offensive? The lyrics run with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sls_KryfU0 The lead singer and songwriter was raised Catholic

The reason I am curious is simply due to a personal argument I had yesterday with a highly catholic/christian person. I'm hopeing some other sincere opinions will come forth :)
 
I'm a former self-identified Christian, and I found anti-Christian things pretty offensive. I'm now pretty universalist, and I find anti-religious things pretty offensive universally. I accept that there will always be people who hold and express such sentiments. I understand the sources of these sentiments, and I think it makes sense where these people get off holding them.

But I'll always find them offensive, simply because I find negativity offensive in general.
 
The question could be asked from an alternative perspective;

Is anti-christianity any more offensive than christians who like going on about hellfire and damnation (anti-everything not christianity)? Both are arguably pretty negative for various reasons.
 
^It could be posed that way, but I'd rather christians answer the original question.

I find negativity disturbing MDAO, not offensive though. I think theres a difference....?
 
Here is a hypothetical:

Lets say you had a friend who strongly believed in Peter Pan, to the point of worship and blind faith. Now, this friend would be willing to die for Peter Pan. People are fighting and killing each other in the name of Peter Pan. Wouldn't you feel morally obligated to spread the truth that Peter Pan is just a story?
 
Here is a hypothetical:

Lets say you had a friend who strongly believed in Peter Pan, to the point of worship and blind faith. Now, this friend would be willing to die for Peter Pan. People are fighting and killing each other in the name of Peter Pan. Wouldn't you feel morally obligated to spread the truth that Peter Pan is just a story?

Yes - however that doesn't mean doing so is not offensive in any way. In fact offensive can mean in the sense of causing anger or displeasure so whether or not something is offensive to a christian can be down to their reaction rather than your intentions.

I'm sure some christians are able to ignore criticism whilst others take offense at the drop of an (atheists) hat. The same thing said to two different christians could be offensive to one and not the other.

I feel i should also point out that from another perspective - any criticism could be considered offensive if you view criticism as a form of verbal attack rather than as an attempt to be constructive.

Edit - i think this might all be slightly off topic now though. The initial question was in terms of antichristianity using that metal band Behemoth as an example where the singer takes a load of christian type symbolism and inverts it to create a 'satanistic' effect for the purposes of sounding cool / selling more records / having something to sing. That's not quite the same as legitimate criticism of christianity (or peter pan).

The only justification i can come up with for blatant antichristianity is that jesus and god are in the public domain as people keep trying to 'spread the word' about them. As far as i am concerned that gives everyone else in the public domain the right to comment as they see fit as long as they don't go round christians houses and start nocking on their doors and invading their private space to do so... o wait a sec...
 
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Edit - i think this might all be slightly off topic now though. The initial question was in terms of antichristianity using that metal band Behemoth as an example where the singer takes a load of christian type symbolism and inverts it to create a 'satanistic' effect for the purposes of sounding cool / selling more records / having something to sing. That's not quite the same as legitimate criticism of christianity (or peter pan).

Your quite right. The reason I used that band is because they are currently in the proocess of being banned from playing in their home country, Poland, as the lead singer/guitarist tore up a bible (he does so every show though....) While he does dislike christinaity, thats his own little beef I guess. That said, he is also a very intelligent human- while he understands theatrics, he's also studied history and latin and is a museum curator. That means little, except that he's not compltely stupid :D

My question is whether such overt antichristianity is as offensive as say, open racism or homophobia (to those who are offended by such)...? I myself am fairly antichristian; but not towards christianh people, christian beliefs, jesus himself or anything on a theological level...just opposed to the whol organised church crap.

*Dutring said bible tearing he denounces the bible as "the source of evil and lies and the worst that man do to each other.." (tried to keep broken english intact :))....some truth there- in a sense, he's actually glorifying good if he feels christinaity is "evil"....
 
My question is whether such overt antichristianity is as offensive as say, open racism or homophobia (to those who are offended by such)...? I myself am fairly antichristian; but not towards christianh people, christian beliefs, jesus himself or anything on a theological level...just opposed to the whol organised church crap.

I would say it's not. Christian symbols are in the public domain and are encountered daily by most non christians. It would be unreasonable not to allow non christians to also use these symbols for their own forms of expression.

Ripping up a bible is clearly a theatrical way of expressing your negative opinion of christianity.

Ripping up a bible shouldn't be a crime as long as the bible belongs to you.

The homophobic equivelent would be to express your views against homosexuality by ripping up some famous peice of homosexual literature.

If racists and homophobes restricted themselves to debate and artistic expression of this sort i think the gays and non majority ethnic groups would be quite relieved.
 
The question could be asked from an alternative perspective;

Is anti-christianity any more offensive than christians who like going on about hellfire and damnation (anti-everything not christianity)? Both are arguably pretty negative for various reasons.

Oh indeed. I don't take kindly to having fire and brimstone waved in my face either. There's just no excuse for passing judgment on people who've done you no wrong, no matter who it comes from or under what auspices.
 
I'm a former self-identified Christian, and I found anti-Christian things pretty offensive. I'm now pretty universalist, and I find anti-religious things pretty offensive universally. I accept that there will always be people who hold and express such sentiments. I understand the sources of these sentiments, and I think it makes sense where these people get off holding them.

But I'll always find them offensive, simply because I find negativity offensive in general.
don't you sort of understand where they are coming from, though? religion has caused problems (understatement). i live in the breadbasket and i see problems it creates, from destroying families to ostracizing people from their towns to having people scared about hell their whole lives etc
 
Here is a hypothetical:

Lets say you had a friend who strongly believed in Peter Pan, to the point of worship and blind faith. Now, this friend would be willing to die for Peter Pan. People are fighting and killing each other in the name of Peter Pan. Wouldn't you feel morally obligated to spread the truth that Peter Pan is just a story?

I would respect those beliefs just as much as Christianity. Obviously I'd do what I could to stop the fighting and killing, if there was a way. But in the end, it isn't up to me to decide whether or not Peter Pan is worth worshipping (weirdly enough, growing up I knew a girl, a few years older than me who worshiped Peter Pan). People are entitled to find spirituality in whatever and whoever they wish, be it Jesus, Peter Pan, or whoever. People can worship Dr. Pepper if it makes them feel happy and fulfilled, and I respect their truth.

Basically, I find being "anti" [insert any religion or other set of beliefs here] to be offensive. It offends me that people can't live and let live.

Speaking what you feel the truth about a particular set of beliefs is one thing. I try and spread what I believe to be the truth about the Bible, the institution of the church, etc. BUT I try to speak my mind while still respecting other people's beliefs. It's one thing to point out possible flaws in Christian thinking, it's quite another to walk around with a "Fuck Jesus" T-shirt on.

It's all about respect.
 
my dad was a preacher so for the first 18 years of my life i was at church like twice on sunday plus wednesday. needless to say i'm not too religious these days. i go to church occassionally but am more spiritual...ive got a decent relationship with God and consider myself to be a christian. im not offended by anyone's anti-christian views or actions. everyone is entitled to have their own system of beliefs. i think you should do whatever makes you happy in life. i don't go around trying to convince people to believe what i believe and i hope i get treated the same in return.
 
my dad was a preacher so for the first 18 years of my life i was at church like twice on sunday plus wednesday. needless to say i'm not too religious these days. i go to church occassionally but am more spiritual...ive got a decent relationship with God and consider myself to be a christian. im not offended by anyone's anti-christian views or actions. everyone is entitled to have their own system of beliefs. i think you should do whatever makes you happy in life. i don't go around trying to convince people to believe what i believe and i hope i get treated the same in return.
[[[My question is whether such overt antichristianity is as offensive as say, open racism or homophobia (to those who are offended by such)...? I myself am fairly antichristian; but not towards christianh people, christian beliefs, jesus himself or anything on a theological level...just opposed to the whol organised church crap.]]]]

How offensive it becomes, is how close people hold their beliefs close to their heart, and what they have found through it, or how much it has assisted them in their lives, and when someone comes to either severely criticize or use blasphemy, when they have identified so much with their belief, it is as if an attack on themselves.

similar as racism or whether they are followers of other religions which is inbread in them and part and parcel of their whole life and embeded in their culture, but I believe it would be worse with homosexuality as you really attack the very core of that person where it is nothing they can do about it but be who they are.
 
qwe, on a rational level, I can see exactly what brought a lot of people to vocally hate religion. I'd never be so unkind as to argue pro-religion with someone who'd been molested by a clergyperson, for example, or someone who'd been expelled from their religious community for their sexual orientation.

But call it Skinnerian conditioning, but antireligious speech and writing is something on a visceral level that I will never cotton to. I'm just not a natural born iconoclast or firestarter. I don't see there being a greater good to uprooting people from what gives them a sense of rootedness.
 
Things that are purely to marginalize or belittle Christians could bother me, especially if unclever. I'm not a Christian. Clever satire of anything, even my own ideals I tend to enjoy. The Christians in my life vary a great deal in how much they can tolerate teasing or satire.

I also tend to have a higher threshold for things to be clever and acceptable to me that are about groups that have historically been or actively are suffering from marginalization by many. Humor about blacks, muslims, or jews for example needs to be really brilliant and insightful before I can find it OK because I've heard so much uninsightful hate spewed about those groups.

All the above written before I go to watch and analyze the Behemoth lyrics. [watches Behemoth] I'm not bothered by the Behemoth lyrics as I think its an anthem for people who feel misled and/or oppressed by Christianity's huge influence over society (I could be wrong, that is my impression) Christians usually think our societal problem is to little Christian influence on society so I can picture many Christian's being unthrilled or offended. I do know some very pro-freespeech Christians who would be mostly unphased. Probably also Behemoth is the variety of art that values shocking people. Not usually my thing, but no need for art to conform to my aesthetics. When I brought up satire and cleverness as things that can cause me to give a pass, I forgot that other art kind of gets a pass from me as well, even when they don't fit my aesthetic preferences (hated the music, unimpressed with the lyrics) I do think they are artists or showman though, so even though I'm not going to buy their work, I respect that band doing their thing.
 
I would respect those beliefs just as much as Christianity. Obviously I'd do what I could to stop the fighting and killing, if there was a way. But in the end, it isn't up to me to decide whether or not Peter Pan is worth worshipping (weirdly enough, growing up I knew a girl, a few years older than me who worshiped Peter Pan). People are entitled to find spirituality in whatever and whoever they wish, be it Jesus, Peter Pan, or whoever. People can worship Dr. Pepper if it makes them feel happy and fulfilled, and I respect their truth.

Basically, I find being "anti" [insert any religion or other set of beliefs here] to be offensive. It offends me that people can't live and let live.

Speaking what you feel the truth about a particular set of beliefs is one thing. I try and spread what I believe to be the truth about the Bible, the institution of the church, etc. BUT I try to speak my mind while still respecting other people's beliefs. It's one thing to point out possible flaws in Christian thinking, it's quite another to walk around with a "Fuck Jesus" T-shirt on.

It's all about respect.


You can't be serious about respecting someone's right to worship Peter Pan, can you?
 
^ im sure she is. Your beleifs are not any more right than anyone elses. thats why you should respect everyones right to belive what they choose to belive. In my opinion, No religeon is more "true" than another.
 
^ im sure she is. Your beleifs are not any more right than anyone elses. thats why you should respect everyones right to belive what they choose to belive. In my opinion, No religeon is more "true" than another.

Whoa whoa whoa. I get that people want me to tread carefully over some subjective experiences that can't conclusively be disproven. I understand that some people believe in metaphysical beings that, while not likely, could possibly exist.

But to suggest that the belief in a fucking cartoon and story book character that was 100% made up by a man, documented as such, and never even suggested to represent anything more is a whole different ballpark of nutter. I mean cmon people, fucking peter pan? If the mods honestly make me respect that belief I am definetely checking out of these forums.
 
I mean cmon people, fucking peter pan? If the mods honestly make me respect that belief I am definetely checking out of these forums.

I can't speak for the mods by my own interpretation is that you have to respect peoples right to believe in what they want; you don't have to respect the belief itself.

Peter pan, flying spaghetti monster, scientology and christianity are all examples that (in my opinion) deserve no respect whatesoever. I'd be lieing if i said otherwise.

No one can force you to respect the idea and if you say you do just to be politically correct then you are a lier. Respecting a persons right to believe what they wish (as long as their beliefs don't require them to go around being violent or whatever) is different and much easier.
 
qwe, on a rational level, I can see exactly what brought a lot of people to vocally hate religion. I'd never be so unkind as to argue pro-religion with someone who'd been molested by a clergyperson, for example, or someone who'd been expelled from their religious community for their sexual orientation.

But call it Skinnerian conditioning, but antireligious speech and writing is something on a visceral level that I will never cotton to. I'm just not a natural born iconoclast or firestarter. I don't see there being a greater good to uprooting people from what gives them a sense of rootedness.
if the church i am talking about discovered an "indecent sexual orientation", they'd get more than just ostracized

i'm talking about getting ostracized for just having a girlfriend/boyfriend or hanging out with someone of the opposite sex or getting a divorce or saying something bad about the church

and, of course, i could point to radical islam, the crusades and witch burning, etc

religion causes problems, it's a fact. religion has become politicized, because religion has power; especially, starting around the reagan era, when the republican party started its massive propaganda campaign to suck in millions (literally) of voters who had never voted before because they felt religion and politics shouldn't mix

religion stagnates society, it is basically DESIGNED to prevent progress, to eliminate questions before they can harm institutions/powers

i know it has good points. i know it helps many people be happy or grow spiritually, but happiness from things such as believing in peter pan, it usually comes at a very high societal price...

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that said, i'm a huge fan of "live, let live". i think people should be able to believe what they want, peoples' minds are their minds. i don't care if people have beliefs that i consider crazy; i believe that, as society progresses and as it has been progressing, we are shedding little by little these religious memes

now, you find *anti-religious* writing offensive. personally, i don't find ANYTHING offensive, i think we as humans need to learn to just chill out. but if i was offended by either side, i would feel that anti-religious writing is "stepping stones of progress", while religious writing would be offensive to me, because of the things i have been mentioning

if anything should be offensive in regards to religion, imo, it should be pro-religious memes

even with this belief, i don't get offended or anything by people who have religious beliefs or by any vocal pro-religious stuff. people can think what they want. i just see religion as one more tool of ignorance in the world, one more thing we are slowly but surely shedding. i don't care if someone believes in religion, i "have faith" (hehehe) that someday these things will go the way of the dodo, and meanwhile, who cares, people can believe whatever crazy things they want

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unfortunately, i have to put up with problems in my life due to others' religious upbringings. and i see people trying to live their lives, trying to not have that HUGE brainwashing effect (yes, i know we are all brainwashed in many ways even in nonreligious families and in nonreligious ways, but religion is one of the "big things" in regards to brainwashing) their lives and destroy it, and i see people fail and really get burned by that upbringing, said upbringing usually being very negative due to moral beliefs. it is sad

spirituality, that is an entirely different matter from religion though... i consider myself a spiritual person
 
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