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Father Stack
08-05-2009, 00:46
Hey Everyone, have decided to finally just do it and quit the Kratom, I'v quit it a few times before with bad withdrawals but was easy enough to do. This time it feels alot harder. For the last week I'm on the leaf so I'm hoping that helps. I have a supply of xanax and loperamide, does anyone know if that combo could help me, my habit is near a year now. Im doing a big walk across France and Spain with my girlfriend so I have to be off it by the time we go. She hates me on it and gives me serious shit about it and I reckon she would finish with me if she knew I was still on it.
I have never really been on anything else other than kratom and alcohol but found kratom to be a source of serious pleasure that snuck up on me and is now affecting my life way more than I like. While it may be mild in comparison to opiates I guess you have to pay the piper sometime in someway.
I'd be happy for any advice or ideas from anyone, I'm glad I can bitch about this here, have felt alone with this for ages, even went to doctors and councellors with no help, I would of got more help if I was addicted to poppy pod tea.

DiscoS
08-05-2009, 02:35
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=345335

Enki
08-05-2009, 08:11
Hey Father Stack, Welcome to Bluelight. Is looking forward to the trek across Spain and France getting you the motivation to put aside the kratom? Sometimes setting a date and tapering is what works for some people. I have no kratom experience so I'll be watching this thread for some more knowledgeable people to chime in. Best of luck on getting past kratom and enjoying your trip.

Father Stack
08-05-2009, 23:33
Even tho Iv quit kratom before, I forgotten how bad the anxiety and depression is. I have been very depressed even when I was on kratom sometimes but it's a pain in the ass. I feel raw and that I'm depressed and anxious and feel like reality is too gritty at the moment. I went all day untill 8.30 and then burned some. Feel ok now but really hungry. It's amazing how you think your prepared and then you get a kick up the ass of some anxiety that you did'nt think you would get. Anyway it's great to say it out somewhere, thanks guys.

3dmusic
09-05-2009, 00:49
can you take other non opiate stuff for anxiety?
I have anxiety and depression today really bad and I dont know why.

Z Y G G Y
09-05-2009, 03:19
list your w/d symptoms, then try to find a medicine/cure for each one

pain - aleve, exercise, hot baths, any other non opiate pain relievers
anxiety - xanax, but only short term, also very addictive, take it only as needed, preferably not everyday
stomach issues - loperamide will work just fine
Restless Leg Sydnrome - Xanax or other benzos
insomnia - ambien or other sleep meds, again only if absolutely necessary, you are doing something in the morning and need the sleep

exercise and take lots of hot baths/showers

you might have lower appetite, maybe make yourself a few days worth of chicken/beef soup and put it in the fridge so you can drink a cup here and there and still have some nutrients.

Xorkoth
09-05-2009, 11:41
I have a lot of experience with kratom withdrawal... I've been using it daily with a few times quitting/breaks for about 4 years. The worst part for me is the extreme restlessness and not knowing what to do with my time (boredom).

The boredom can be combatted by going outside and doing stuff. Schedule your day so you have a lot of things to do.

The restlessness/discomfort can be helped with loperamide, definitely. Large doses will reduce the restlessness and give you a bit of overall relief, although it's certainly nothing like kratom. Alcohol can help if you get really desperate, but of course it would be worse to be addicted to alcohol. The last time I quit I got drunk 3 nights in a row so I could sleep at least a bit. The restlessness almost totally prevents sleep for me.

The good news is that for me at least the withdrawals last 4-5 days, and then they're over. Then the key will be to replace the role that kratom played in your life with something else.

Good luck. :) <3 I've gotta do this again some day. It costs WAY too much money and I hate being a slave to a plant.

Father Stack
09-05-2009, 15:57
Ye, I think no1reason for quitting is being a slave to the plant. I am still taking small amounts but no extracts or large amounts. I have felt very anxious and depressed lately so I'm sure thats part of lowering my dose. Tommorow I plan to 24 hours without any at all. I fully realize Iv got to quit now, I'm going easy on myself but I plan to be off it soon. One of the worst things I'v come to realize is that when Iv not taken it for a while the world looks very gritty and uncomfortable, even watching TV can be very uncomortable. It's an awful feeling hard to describe. I also think everyone has a different experience. I am also yahoo messanging a girl whos going throught the same stuff, I plan to give myself as much support as possible which really helps the mind.

I drink those protein shakes, Iv lost loads of weight nd Im sure its cause I always spaced out eating to accomodate keeping my kratom buzz going, thats a slave. I find the xanax to definitely help the anxiety but I feel guilty for taking it afterwards which ads to the whole thing.
Thanks for all the posts, it defo makes me feel that I'm not alone, all in all I'm sorry I kept taking kratom because if I could of controlled it, it would be the best rewardafter a long week!

txern41
06-02-2010, 23:44
somebody please help! i'm hooked on kratom. can someone give me a taper schedule and/or help with loperamide,cimetidine? please, please help!

yucatanboy2
07-02-2010, 00:09
I'd start by figuring out how much you take and writing a taper schedule for yourself that will use up your remaining kratom... don't buy any more of course!

There is no way to not have w/ds, but as was mentioned above, you can medicate for each symptom. Also, get out and exercise.

Blackvinegar2
07-02-2010, 01:14
damn.... I tried kratom ONE time when I was withdrawaling from a small fentanyl and heroin binge I had like 2 summers ago.. It was some pretty weak stuff. People actually get addicted and withdrawals from this stuff???!!! hahahaha.... Seriously guys, You don't know what pure agony and suffering is untill you have had the W/D's from an IV heroin habit, and your connect is out of town for 3 days. Does kratom withdrawal leave you on the bathroom floor in the fetal position in a pool of your own diarrhea shit with goose bumps and throwing up all over yourself?

theseeker
07-02-2010, 01:33
Hey- if this guy feels like he's suffering without Kratom- then let's take him at his word. He feels like he needs help, period. It may not be heroin but it's the withdrawal he's experiencing.

Stack- codeine is readily available in France. The French pharmacies are very liberal and hangovers are often treated with codeine mixtures. The codeine should keep you ok but only take it AT NIGHT as needed. Try not to take more than 60mg and you should be able to sleep if that's a problem. Otherwise- I recommend you tough out the days. Hiking is awesome during any type of withdrawal.

WSB15
07-02-2010, 10:40
Never done Kratom, but I'd just treat it like any other opiate withdrawal (tons of threads on remedies). It affects the mu-opioid receptor so it has similar effects to a weak opiate.

You should be fine, just take immodium and as little of the xanax as possible. I mean seriously, are you going to risk losing this girl over Kratom, of all things?

fm1983
07-02-2010, 22:09
damn.... I tried kratom ONE time when I was withdrawaling from a small fentanyl and heroin binge I had like 2 summers ago.. It was some pretty weak stuff. People actually get addicted and withdrawals from this stuff???!!! hahahaha.... Seriously guys, You don't know what pure agony and suffering is untill you have had the W/D's from an IV heroin habit, and your connect is out of town for 3 days. Does kratom withdrawal leave you on the bathroom floor in the fetal position in a pool of your own diarrhea shit with goose bumps and throwing up all over yourself?


Is being an asshole needed?

W/d's are w/d's no matter how you slice it. And while you think kratom is a mild drug, it still is an opiate and still can cause dependency, and he will still get opiate w/d. For someone who has only used that, and no other drug, its going to suck. And he is looking for some help, not someone to laugh at him.

Just because you think your cool by experiencing H w/d, doesn't mean you are. Maybe with your group of junkies, but not here man.

Anyways on topic:

|How much Kratom are you using? The best plan would be a taper. Gradually reduce you dose little by little. Take just enough where you are comfortable. stay at that level for a week, and gradually lower yourself. When you are as low as possible, jump off.

Benzo's, Benadryll, and imodium will help you out. try to stay busy, I find if you are out and about, not matter how crappy you feel, it always seems to help me out.

Good luck.

phactor
08-02-2010, 00:20
For mild opiate withdrawals I find a positive frame of mind, a couple beers and some bud can really help. Just do not make it a habit (except for the positive thinking of course), many a former opiate user turns to the booze after they drop the opiate use. Frankly, I find the legal one much more conducive to living a functional life though.

QuasiStoned
08-02-2010, 06:18
damn.... I tried kratom ONE time when I was withdrawaling from a small fentanyl and heroin binge I had like 2 summers ago.. It was some pretty weak stuff. People actually get addicted and withdrawals from this stuff???!!! hahahaha.... Seriously guys, You don't know what pure agony and suffering is untill you have had the W/D's from an IV heroin habit, and your connect is out of town for 3 days. Does kratom withdrawal leave you on the bathroom floor in the fetal position in a pool of your own diarrhea shit with goose bumps and throwing up all over yourself?

Uh... it may not be an IV heroin habit but it certainly does cause withdrawals. I used to be a kratom addict before I moved on to poppy tea and can recall having withdrawals when I wouldn't use, particularly depression. I'll admit that kratom withdrawals were a walk in the park compared to PPT withdrawals, but lets not belittle anyones experience here okay? Opiate withdrawal is opiate withdrawal and it's unpleasant to varying degrees dependent on individual factors, the drugs used, and doses taken. If he/she says they're suffering, then I believe them.

Delta-9-THC
09-02-2010, 01:56
I have quit taking kratom twice by tapering before although admittedly I am on it again right now and will be starting my own taper soon.

You can make your own taper schedule depending on how fast you want to quit. The quicker the more discomfort I would imagine.

The thing to do here is start keeping a log of your doses. Weigh all of them so that they are all the exact same. This stabilizes the level of the active ingredients (Mytragynine?) in your body. Stay like this for a couple days at least then lower it by a certain amount and then stabilize at this dose for a few days before lowering it again. I lowered mine about .5 grams each time as I was taking 4 grams every 3 hours. If you follow this pattern it isn't that uncomfortable at all. You can adjust this depending on how quickly you want to taper and how much your taking.

I suggest you buy some phenibut to take on the days you lower your dose. You will feel almost nothing. The worst symptom I get is restless legs and muscle aches. It can be very irritating and almost impossible to sleep and phenibut is very effective for this.

phactor
09-02-2010, 02:04
Tapering seems like a good, plan. My buddy has limited experience with kratom, but he urges anyone that taper with kratom make sure that the dosage drops are a little larger when compared to other taper plans. This would allow one to be fully sure that they are indeed reducing the dose. A .5 gram dosage adjustment seems fine.

Really the most important part about any taper is a true commitment to it. Its all about getting into the mindframe of taking steps to take care of a problem, rather then getting high to avoid that problem. Sounds basic but its huge.

Kerplunk
27-02-2010, 23:08
I've quit kratom three times since I started using it over 3-4 years ago. I would use it daily and up to six times a day and every time I quit I did it cold turkey. The first time it took one day, second time it took three days, third time took five and the last one took nearly 10 days! I had to waste an entire week's vacation to get off of it. I certainly could not work while coping with the wds. And now I am back on the stuff and would really like to get off the stuff for good. It's too damned expensive and I'm sick and tired of having to plan ahead to make sure my next order won't be late and risk wds on work days.

Like I said, I've been totally abusing kratom, it helped me with depression and got me through the hell of work (which I hate). I even take kratom openly at work, nobody asks me what it is and for the rare ones that do, I just tell them it's a natural herb which helps me against depression and loss of energy. All of this to say that I've come up with certain "recipes" to make the wds less of a pain.

The best thing for me to alleviate the pain and RSL... is coffee. A nice big cup of coffee always helps me for a couple of hours. You won't be able to sleep at all, so might as well just dampen the pain with a warm cup of coffee. I tried tea and other warm drinks, but coffee is the only thing that helped. Take a lot of really hot baths and relax as much as possible. Make sure you are in a warm environment, cold is your enemy here as it will worsen your symptoms. As for depression, I would also equip myself with some strong 5-htp pills which I would take 2-3 times a day. It won't get rid of the depression, but it will help a bit.

The only thing I have never been able to escape is the restlessness/lack of sleep. I've tried melatonine, but it never did anything for me. The few hours of sleep I did get throughout the week were due to sheer exhaustion. And no matter what you do, you will have to struggle with bouts of absolute torment. Every day, at least once in a while I found myself shaking uncontrollably on the sofa, my face dug deep into a pillow, moaning away in pain, eyes all teary and itching.

It might not be heroin wds, like that prick who thinks he's so cool and manly to have gone through, but kratom wds are hellish enough and not walk in the park as some would suggest. I am completely incapacitated for the first couple of days and need to busy myself as best I can during those first few days. After day three-four or for me five, you'll ba able to walk about and do a few things, but you'll be in terrible shape and the depression is to be reckoned with.

Anyway, good luck. I'm planning to quit in May (another week's vacation gone) and hopefully it will be for good. If anyone has any solutions as to a way to get some sleep (and perhaps avoid the coffee) would be welcome. I would prefer not having to go to the doctor to get precription drugs, but if it's the only way... Here in Canada you can't just buy whatever drug you might want to test against wds, so my ears are open to new formulas...

Blackvinegar2
28-02-2010, 02:19
took a look at this thread again, and wanted to apologize for being a douche bag in my post up above. Not sure what I was thinking at that time, sure it has something to do with my occasional methadone crankiness... Opiate withdrawal sucks and I have extreme empathy for anybody going through opiate withdrawal, cause I know mine were complete hell and suffering. Kratom is an opiate isn't it? And by the way to the cool guy that posted after me, when did I say i was cool for experiencing heroin withdrawals? go back to poppin lortabs buddy, and quit trying to be an e-badass

Govindum
09-03-2010, 18:51
Hi guys! I live in sweden and I´m not quite sure what "phenibuds" and "Immodium" is?
Can any one explain and mayby tell me where I can get it? Online perhaps?

Draigan
09-03-2010, 19:49
damn.... I tried kratom ONE time when I was withdrawaling from a small fentanyl and heroin binge I had like 2 summers ago.. It was some pretty weak stuff. People actually get addicted and withdrawals from this stuff???!!! hahahaha.... Seriously guys, You don't know what pure agony and suffering is untill you have had the W/D's from an IV heroin habit, and your connect is out of town for 3 days. Does kratom withdrawal leave you on the bathroom floor in the fetal position in a pool of your own diarrhea shit with goose bumps and throwing up all over yourself?

Ohhh get off it lol. I think its really quite rare that someone pukes from WD. Infact its something like 25-40 percent of addicts are barely even physicaly addicted. I wish I just did kratom. or stuck to taking like at max an 80 a day....

Father Stack
31-03-2010, 23:40
Hey Guys, Iv just read this after many months, just to update you,

1. I got off the Kratom
2. I got onto Codeine
3. I got off of Codeine
4. I got onto Codeine again
5. Im now off all substances except stout, which is a birthright:


When I was in France I felt bad, in total withdrawal and had to walk 25/30km a day that I CWE'd a box of N+ i had in my bag and that was it, I started taking probably 200mg of Codeine a day in pill form such as n+, It made me forget all about Kratom. I withdrew from the codeine twice and was alright, i did it twice and can say it's not as bad as kratom w/d, however its still a pain in the ass to w/d from. I still really think Kratom is safer than any opiate and was an asshole to go there. since then iv gotten healthy even, still go for loads of walks, play wii for hours, all the excercise games, and get a blanced amount of opiate stimulation form excercise. I have on occasion gone to then headshop and relapsed with the "K" but it looks like kratom will be banned here soon. This is a total shame as i know people who were serious addicts to hard opiates were given a godsend when kratom became known to them.

Thanks to all you guys,

phactor
01-04-2010, 03:55
Good to hear!! We love success stories here at the darkside!

Exercise is key for quitting any habit IMO

txern41
23-05-2010, 19:34
Hey Everyone, have decided to finally just do it and quit the Kratom, I'v quit it a few times before with bad withdrawals but was easy enough to do. This time it feels alot harder. For the last week I'm on the leaf so I'm hoping that helps. I have a supply of xanax and loperamide, does anyone know if that combo could help me, my habit is near a year now. Im doing a big walk across France and Spain with my girlfriend so I have to be off it by the time we go. She hates me on it and gives me serious shit about it and I reckon she would finish with me if she knew I was still on it.
I have never really been on anything else other than kratom and alcohol but found kratom to be a source of serious pleasure that snuck up on me and is now affecting my life way more than I like. While it may be mild in comparison to opiates I guess you have to pay the piper sometime in someway.
I'd be happy for any advice or ideas from anyone, I'm glad I can bitch about this here, have felt alone with this for ages, even went to doctors and councellors with no help, I would of got more help if I was addicted to poppy pod tea.

is sweating alot a symptom? my friend got a bad batch and he can't stop sweating plus alot of anxziety and had a bad panic attack and was drinking krat like water and it made it worse or it seemed so. every krat he's taken in large amts for anxiety has always calmed him down, not this time. you are strong for trying! med establishment know NOTHING about krat, everything friggin healthcare pro has said 'what's that'. thanks

Bojangles69
24-05-2010, 16:55
took a look at this thread again, and wanted to apologize for being a douche bag in my post up above. Not sure what I was thinking at that time, sure it has something to do with my occasional methadone crankiness... Opiate withdrawal sucks and I have extreme empathy for anybody going through opiate withdrawal, cause I know mine were complete hell and suffering. Kratom is an opiate isn't it? And by the way to the cool guy that posted after me, when did I say i was cool for experiencing heroin withdrawals? go back to poppin lortabs buddy, and quit trying to be an e-badass

I read your post and I didn't really see you as being a "douche-bag".

I think you were being very rational, very honest, and straight to the point. Kratom has weaker wds than codiene, its basically the weakest opiate to get off of. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be abusing it in the first place.

Some people get so hung up on sugar coating and spoon feeding in TDS it seems they forget what drug they're even talking about. I didn't think you were being a cool guy, I think some people need to have more balls and less fear as thats more condusive to harm reduction than babying someone into a relapses a thousand times.
"Oh you keep taking kratom because you can't handle the wds? Thats ok don't be hard on yourself". Bullshit, stop the kratom and deal with it or do a taper. I'm gonna start making threads in TDS about how painful my coffee is to withdraw from, I think kratom is actually in the coffee family which is even funnier. I'm not making light or saying anyones weak, but there comes a time and point in life when growing balls will get you further than sugar coating, and this is def one of those threads.

weekend addiction
25-05-2010, 03:23
I experienced no withdrawals after a week or so of daily use. This was from tea in varying doses.

Father Stack
13-10-2010, 21:34
well Bojangles"Kratom has weaker wds than codiene", don't believe a word of it, kratom withdrawal may be quicker and "different" but the paws and shit are bad , Took me months to get back to normal after my almighty binge with kratom, I know heroin addicts who got on the kratom train and are still as fucked as ever, some even fool themselves into believing its not doing them any harm, when i was talking about withdrawals Im not just taling about the 4 days of bed, its the thawing out of your brain from depleted chemicals in your brain that lasts weeks or months. Kratom may work for people who just want to wd off an opiate for a week or two, but I have yet to meet someone who did'nt become a kratom addict themselves doing that, not saying theres not one. I remember thinking like that when i started kratom, defending it, it's not as bad , blah blah, that was back when itwas new to the average western person, utfse and read a few of the wonderful tales about kratom. It's a sneaky fucker thats for sure.

socko
13-10-2010, 22:02
I'm gonna start making threads in TDS about how painful my coffee is to withdraw from,
Caffeine wds can be bad for some. It is one that has caused me to have to curl up on the floor in a dark room in the fetal position vomiting.

Thanks for sharing your story Father Stack. This is an interesting thread. I had no idea people could become addicted to kratom. I've used kratom about once a week for a year. I like the stuff but only every so often -- it does't really seem to work if I take it 2 days in a row. And the taste is just FOUL. On the other hand, it's not as hard on the system as getting drunk. it's cheaper too. As for withdrawal, only on the morning of the day after, do I feel gnarly. The feeling is reminiscent of mild opiate wds. But by noon and maybe a beer and a coffee, I'm fine. I suppose you've got to take it every day for weeks, impossible for me considering how FOUL the taste is, to get the symptoms you describe.

Asclepius
13-10-2010, 22:43
damn.... I tried kratom ONE time when I was withdrawaling from a small fentanyl and heroin binge I had like 2 summers ago.. It was some pretty weak stuff. People actually get addicted and withdrawals from this stuff???!!! hahahaha.... Seriously guys, You don't know what pure agony and suffering is untill you have had the W/D's from an IV heroin habit, and your connect is out of town for 3 days. Does kratom withdrawal leave you on the bathroom floor in the fetal position in a pool of your own diarrhea shit with goose bumps and throwing up all over yourself?

The onset of addiction to Kratom happens later than it would to Heroin usage.
Kratom can be Addictive. Lets not let pissing contests stand in the way of someone looking for help and Advice, dont think the intention of his thread has anything to do with comparing who has got it worse!
(Martyr statements like:''you should try such and such; then you'll know what suffering really is my boy'', only shows jealousy, bitterness and inability to identify with someone in a different situation to yourself-wouldnt it be more helpful, for both you and he, to be glad he hasnt suffered the way you did?!) A healthy fear of Addiction is commendable.:)
Not being Sanctimonious here, just pointing out how your perspective is filled with bitterness and this might work against you in the long run.

^Oops, Just saw ur apology, hope your doin ok BV?<3

yoyoman
04-11-2010, 11:51
I'm addicted to kratom. Even though i've been addicted and taking about 7-8 teaspoons full a day, i've always been able to sleep fine if i took just a teaspoon before bed, but now i've run into a NEW problem.

I've been tapering down, but i'm having this problem where I get massive chills during sleep (mainly when i'm falling asleep) and it wakes me up.. so i can't get good sleep. But if i take too much kratom at night or in the evening, the stimulation causes me to trip out while sleeping (which keeps waking me up with crazy images).. so lately i've just been sleeping through the chills (feeling hot and cold at the same time, horrible, bad sleep).

Its a new problem I don't know why after a year of constant use i'd suddenly be getting this problem, probably because i've managed to take lower doses for a couple months and its a newer, stronger w/d symptom.

Weirdly i'm not getting restless legs at night (it used to happen). Would loperamide possibly help with the body chills?

Mental Kenny
02-12-2010, 14:51
Kratom WDs for me can be just as bad as hydrocodone, definately much worst than codeine, on a whole different league, on the physical level they're not that bad, but the anxiety and depression are really something.

I've been on and off it since 2007 and if I stop after several months of high dose daily use, I feel completely impaired, restless legs, muscle cramps, burning stomach, strong nausea, horrible chills and sweating, flu like symptoms.

Mentally I feel like there's no reason to live, the world seems a cold and hostile place, I get absolutely no enjoyment from things that I usually like, I get panic and anxiety attacks which lead me to down copious amounts of alcohol.

I admit I'm a noob when it comes to opiates, never done H, only tried oxy on a handful of occasions given price and rarity, but I did have a supply of hydro and Ms Contin a few years back and the Kratom WDs easily match the hydro.

A lot of people underestimate it, but it's a very powerful herb, especially if one is using the enhanced types at big doses for continued amounts of time, as in daily for several months.

I'm going through WDs as we speak, I've been feeling absolutely awful these past few days, obsessively thinking about my next delivery, completely unable to interact with others or enjoy my daily activities.

eodonnelk21
03-12-2010, 15:10
Hey Everyone, have decided to finally just do it and quit the Kratom, I'v quit it a few times before with bad withdrawals but was easy enough to do. This time it feels alot harder. For the last week I'm on the leaf so I'm hoping that helps. I have a supply of xanax and loperamide, does anyone know if that combo could help me, my habit is near a year now. Im doing a big walk across France and Spain with my girlfriend so I have to be off it by the time we go. She hates me on it and gives me serious shit about it and I reckon she would finish with me if she knew I was still on it.
I have never really been on anything else other than kratom and alcohol but found kratom to be a source of serious pleasure that snuck up on me and is now affecting my life way more than I like. While it may be mild in comparison to opiates I guess you have to pay the piper sometime in someway.
I'd be happy for any advice or ideas from anyone, I'm glad I can bitch about this here, have felt alone with this for ages, even went to doctors and councellors with no help, I would of got more help if I was addicted to poppy pod tea.

what is kratom?

stuckinaloop
03-12-2010, 19:31
Ohhh get off it lol. I think its really quite rare that someone pukes from WD. Infact its something like 25-40 percent of addicts are barely even physicaly addicted. I wish I just did kratom. or stuck to taking like at max an 80 a day....

I used to not puke from withdrawals till i started iv'ing dope after having been on 80mg methadone. It wasn't rare I would have to stick my head out the window on my way to cop just to throw up bile.

I do agree some people are more prone to throwing up and shit, but I think if you pick up a heavy habit its inevitable.

When I was doing 300-400mg oxy shit was a walk in the park compared to H. Withdrawals were very debilitating but atleast I coudl kinda hide them. It's hard to hide a hacking puke every fuckin 15 minutes lol.

I was and am very physically addicted though. Having a decent job/credit cards etc.. really fucked me in the end.

To the OP, I am sure you are not making up your symtoms. Just remember this fro next time if you ever think about dabbling in opiates again. Good thing about withdrawal is ito nly has to happen once. (Even thought that notion is really unfathomable for me).

I think if you load up on loperamide and xanax to help you sleep you won't miss a night honestly. It actually helps more than you;d think (loperamide)

stanmarsh
03-12-2010, 19:32
I read your post and I didn't really see you as being a "douche-bag".

I think you were being very rational, very honest, and straight to the point. Kratom has weaker wds than codiene, its basically the weakest opiate to get off of. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be abusing it in the first place.

Some people get so hung up on sugar coating and spoon feeding in TDS it seems they forget what drug they're even talking about. I didn't think you were being a cool guy, I think some people need to have more balls and less fear as thats more condusive to harm reduction than babying someone into a relapses a thousand times.
"Oh you keep taking kratom because you can't handle the wds? Thats ok don't be hard on yourself". Bullshit, stop the kratom and deal with it or do a taper. I'm gonna start making threads in TDS about how painful my coffee is to withdraw from, I think kratom is actually in the coffee family which is even funnier. I'm not making light or saying anyones weak, but there comes a time and point in life when growing balls will get you further than sugar coating, and this is def one of those threads.

Bojangles, you're one of my favorite posters here, and I see where you're coming from, but I think its this type of sentiment that generates threads like this.

An opiate-naive person searching the web sees kratom "gives some opiate effects but its not really addictive and its essentially withdrawal-free". So they figure they'll try it, get good effects, than start taking it all the time with little fear of addiction/withdrawal. All of a sudden they miss a few doses and are hit with w/d symptoms when they were not expecting them. That can be frightening and all of a sudden they're on bluelight trying to find out how to feel better. Most abusers of stronger opiates know they're in for withdrawal if they stop or cut back.

Also, I found I got better effects from kratom than significant amounts of codeine, but I guess thats just personal preference. Everyone is different.

*Venus*
04-12-2010, 00:35
Hiking is awesome during any type of withdrawal.

WTF? While I agree 100% that this is awesome for anxiety, depression, flexibility and more, it is misleading advice for someone new to WDs.

Most people can barely manage to pick up the remote to change the channel when in the throws of WDs. Recommendations to this individual should have been more reality based. I apologize for my dismay, but it seems somewhat irresponsible to suggest this to someone who has a vacation planned with physical activity involved. He was lucky to have access to codeine or he would have been completely unprepared with a relationship on the line.

On another note, I was lead to believe that Kratom was not an opiate but opiate-like based on its effects on mu receptors. The pharmaceutical equivalent most closely associated with Kratom is Tramadol. For this reason, i took it during my methadone WD. I have a stomach of steel. This however, made me vomit even when mixed with chocolate shake. I so desperately wanted relief but couldn't manage it down more than once. It took the edge off and allowed me to get up enough to walk around for a few hours. Its effects are very short lived and only barely eased methadone WD symptoms which was disappointing after waiting for it in the mail.


Thank you for the update OP!

stuckinaloop
04-12-2010, 06:26
Yeah I am sorry but the last thing I am going to fucking do while I am cold-sweating, throwing up bile, feeling like DEATH is going to go on a wonderful nature hike lol. Maybe after 7 days into H withdrawal or something, but FUCK you will not see me up on the mountain with a walking stick enjoying the fresh air and little bunnies and shit lol.

Oceanstate
06-02-2011, 11:48
If you want to hear about my K withdrawal, skip ahead a few paragraphs. I feel some backstory is merited.

Kratom was the first opioid I got really into. The pills and heroin, etc. never attracted me much - too artificial. Opium I did like, though. I guess the reason I got so into kratom was that it seemed fairly benign as far as drugs go (and it's LEGAL). I remember watching Tarkovsky's "Stalker" while experimenting with some 15x extract for the first time after some difficulty with my freelance work. At the time I was regularly driving to faraway places as a mere act of leaving myself behind. In short, I was severely depressed. My doctor and I decided the root of my sadness was my near-agoraphobic anxiety, which made it very difficult to modify my lifestyle.

Anyway, when the opioid receptors started going gaga, it was as if a shroud had been removed from my mind. I could enjoy myself consistently. There were no breaks, just seemingly endless bliss that I'd never felt. Ever. I knew from then and there that I would pursue this strange plant to greater heights.

As it goes, I got addicted, throwing money and time into it. I would lapse into occasional withdrawals, usually because I ordered it via USPS and I'd run out of extract. This led me to discover DXM's potential in alleviating w/d pains (I'd never tried it before, and loved it). However, kratom really weakens your body's ability to cope with new stressors, over time. It came to a point where I couldn't use DXM anymore because the combination of drugs would cause respiratory depression, anorexia, and chills. I soon moved on to ground leaf, to save money. At my peak I was going through about a pound every 2 weeks. I went to the ER twice - once due to unpreparedness regarding the restless leg syndrome of w/d, and then another time due to aftereffects of DXM mixed with kratom. The latter was pretty excruciating, and a clear reminder of just how addictive and powerful it is.

The impetus for my quitting was a need for a clearer head. My girlfriend was moving out west for a job, and I wanted to go with her. She eventually said I had to quit if I was to go. I wasn't going to lose her over this - unlike the previous times, when I'd make promises that I wouldn't fulfill.

I had cut back a bit to begin with, so quitting wasn't as difficult as I'd imagined. I HIGHLY recommend boiling your powdered leaf into tea, then straining out the pulp. Drink the liquid for a very quick jolt of bliss. Drink the pulp (mixed with water of course) if you are serious about quitting. It has far less of an effect than either the straight-up leaf or the strained tea, yet somehow it keeps you afloat for a while.

First came the chest pains, then the anxiety, then the depression. Just as I thought I'd quit, some restless leg syndrome bit back, out of nowhere. I experienced it as a weird, burning sensation in my heart which forced me to constantly move my legs. I'm still going through this as we speak, but it has lessened.

My advice for withdrawal:
-First of all, taper off if you can, esp. using pre-extracted leaf.
-Use benzodiazepines for the first couple days, when your body is at its most vulnerable.
-Use kava the following days. I find this not only alleviates the RLS, but also improves mood AND anxiety. It's pretty much win-win.
-Stay away from diphenhydramine. It makes the restlessness far worse. If you can't sleep, do pushups.
-Use loperamide as needed; it can help with physical symptoms.
-For sleep, use valerian and chamomile. This goes for everyone, addict or not.

For what it's worth, kratom is very real, especially if you haven't much experience with opioids. I think someone else on this forum put it best: "Heroin will kill you; Kratom will make you stagnate." Use it responsibly.

Somniack
12-02-2011, 21:22
I've experienced withdrawals from both long iv heroin binges and long kratom binges, as well as wd's from other opiates.. In my opinion, withdrawals from UEI kratom are actually worse than those from heroin, and it's for the same reason that pod tea wd's are worse than those from morphine.. That reason is that with heroin and morphine, your body gets addicted to just one chemical. With UEI kratom, as well as with pod tea, your body gets addicted to a cocktail of chemicals.

As for the original post, one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet that has always helped me with wd's is st. John's wort.. I take four doses of 1200 mg each. With the wallmart brand that's four pills, four times daily.. Try it it's saved me from anxiety and depression countless times and is very affordable..

Boognish
13-02-2011, 05:59
I withdrew from kratom, it lasted 20X longer than alcohol wd. I discovered manng da pimps grade whole leaf and it was sooo much better than any crappy extract that I'd messed with in the past. I dosed about 7 gms/3-4 times a day for about three months. The last few weeks I started supplementing tincture extract as well, which may have led to my downfall.
The withdrawals started out as waves of sheer, unrelenting anxiety - and they started when I was drunk, so alcohol wd is improbable. When I was younger, I withdrew from a nasty pint (or more)of rum a night habit - the wd's lasted 4-5 days and were very similar: catatonic anxiety, very high bp, insomnia(brain zaps), tremors, diarrhea, etc.
Three weeks later and the wd's just got worse, eventually I went to my doctor - my blood pressure was 180/110, I was freaking the fuck out! He rx's me hbp pills and zolpidem, tries to push lexapro, but I refuse. So I start taking the bp meds and continue to withdrawal every torturous fucking day for 4 more weeks with the only thing to look forward to was when my nightly ambien knocked me out(if it did). I almost forgot to add that after a month of wd's, my blood pressure started to return to normal and because of the bp med, I started experiencing hypotension (fainted at work, headrushes all the time, etc), eventually I quit the blood pressure pills and felt way better.
Sorry if this post looks like shit - I'm doing this from an iPhone. Anyway, so my withdrawals were horrible for months!! I constantly felt dissociated and panicked, sweating constantly.
Now about nine months later, I have bad insomnia and panic disorder, but closer to normal. I can no longer participate in stimulants of any kind (except caffiene) without extreme jitteryness, palpitations and such. I used to like adderall, occasional cocaine, MDMA and shit, but no longer - the anxiety is just too great.
This all started out as a way to legally relax, as I was trying to not break the law because I'm a single parent, always on daddy-duty and such, I never thought it would lead to months of withdrawals and long lasting anxiety attacks. I can't even stand drinking much, when the alcohol starts to leave my system, I get high
Bp and vasoconstriction, anxiety.
Anyway, when my wd was peaking into the second month, I scoured the net for info and couldnt find much so hopefully this helps someone. I also want to add that I do not live in a mj-friendly area, and people get jacked and/or shot just trying to get some mids or nugs(which is some of the reason I was trying to relax legally). I'm sure that if I lived near a dispensary or a mj-compassionate community and had acces to the right indica strains, some of my wd symptoms could've been alleviated (and maybe I would've never messed with kratom)
This shizz just crept up on me, I never thought using a legal herb for three months would lead to this, it's getting slightly better, but never the same.

nervousone
13-02-2011, 06:29
Alcohol withdrawal can kill you so saying kratom is worse is kind of a stretch.

Boognish
13-02-2011, 06:31
Alcohol withdrawal can kill you so saying kratom is worse is kind of a stretch.
I guess im not saying it's worse, just saying that it lasted forever (in my experience) I'll edit that. But I wouldn't be surprised if a really heavy kratom wd could do some damage, I mean 180/110 bp is nearing stroke territory, just my body chemistry I guess...

kjobo
26-04-2011, 20:47
This is not a tested method but it does make some sense least to me: switch to a good maeng da Kratom which releases it's alkaloids about twice as fast as, say, Bali. Then keep taking low doses of that only when you absolutely need it. Shay I'm thinking is, since the half life is so low and the onset of withdrawal is twice as quick, the symptoms should only last half the time, similar to how methadone withdrawal can last weeks more than opiate withdrawal since the half-life is so much greater.

Also, thai Kratom is sooo much easier to live your life on as if gives you similar opiate feelings as Bali without the laying on the couch with nausea all night. Keep in mind, one would have to get good maeng da for this.

It's out there. SWIMS first try with one of the bigger sites got SWIM some excellent stuff.

Juicy Lucy
26-04-2011, 22:21
I had a bad Bali habit a few years back I found it much much harder to come off the Bali than any other krat.

After I got over the Bali habit I took to SGI and Prem Red Vein Thai, when I ran outa cash I went to Commercial Indo and then tapered down. Coming off the Thai was 10x easier than the Bali, now I'm quite content on the Commercial Indo - it does what I want it to do.

Juicy Lucy
26-04-2011, 22:26
X x x x x

Oceanstate
04-05-2011, 17:37
I ask that you leave behind everything you think you know about kratom and read what follows.


I've experienced withdrawals from both long iv heroin binges and long kratom binges, as well as wd's from other opiates.. In my opinion, withdrawals from UEI kratom are actually worse than those from heroin, and it's for the same reason that pod tea wd's are worse than those from morphine.. That reason is that with heroin and morphine, your body gets addicted to just one chemical. With UEI kratom, as well as with pod tea, your body gets addicted to a cocktail of chemicals.


I hate to disagree with the people that seem to have a "complex" about thinking they've gone through the hardest withdrawals. If you've gone through H withdrawal, good for you, that's a very hard thing to do. But like this person said, Kratom and PPT are both lots of chemicals combined, and thus may for some people, involve more serious withdrawal than H or the ilk.

The thing that differentiates kratom from ALL the other opiates is that it's a stimulant as well. So, when you're withdrawing, your body is missing essential energy as well as pain relief (with "pure" opiates, all you are missing is firing opioid receptors).

The primary active chemical in kratom is 8 times stronger than morphine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom). So the withdrawal, from heavy, daily use, is going to be almost unbearable. I've gone through it once, and the second time knew better and used less, but still had to chug through benzodiazepines, methylphenidate, alcohol, cannabis, and kava to get through. (All of these were legal or prescribed by the way.)

The next time I hear someone claim that kratom is weak, I'm going to go ahead and assume you haven't tried it in large enough amounts. Start with standardized 15x extract. Use as needed. After you've used for a year and withdrawn, tell me again how "weak" kratom is.

*edit* the withdrawals were so unbelievably terrible that I literally could not stop. I've also suffered from formidable anxiety and depression my entire adult life, as well as severe ADHD which probably acted as a catalyst. I also have delayed sleep phase syndrome (DSPS). When I started taking Kratom the feeling was remarkable - a total reversal of all the negative thoughts that would otherwise dominant. Being a CNS stimulant it also helped with the ADHD... at first. As I used more and more (peak as I said before, 50g pure leaf per day) my motivation diminished completely.

I think the best way to approach kratom is with great care, especially if you are using it for legitimate medical purpose. I've never tried meth but a documentary describes a man who set the shot put record at his school the first time he tried meth. After a small peak, there is a huge downfall, often to rock bottom. That's the extent of the comparison of K to meth because I don't believe K affects dopamine very much at all. The funny thing is, kratom DID help me with my anxiety and depression especially, and when I did a DXM trip at the peak of my use, I achieved a complete and utter reduction of anxiety, enough to finally asked out a girl I was smitten with, finally end up having sex (whee), and enough to develop an often tenuous, but stable and life-sustaining relationship that has endured for almost a year. And I'd never been in a real relationship before.

But K is a HARD drug, and if you use it daily in amounts >~15g WILL FUCK you over at some point. I spent my entire savings on it. As David says in "Detox or Die," every junkie has to suffer the agony... once in a while. And that's what you will eventually be - a junkie. The only difference between you and that heroin addict under the bridge is that he is using an extremely toxic substance. Kratom is chock full of antioxidants and fiber, so it is actually good for you. The caveat, as I reiterate, is the potential severity of the addiction and withdrawal. During my 2 year heavy stint on the drug, I lost a lot of weight, got cavities and gingivitis due to the accumulation of biofilm on the tongue and mouth. I developed chronic constipation and several intestinal blockages which had to be treated with strong laxatives. I went to the ER twice due to withdrawals and bad combos. Towards the end I couldn't sleep with it or without it, and was just taking it to feel okay. It was pretty much hell, and as much as I wanted to escape, the K was too hard to ignore. I got off because my gf fully threatened to leave me. I'm on it again because I believe moderation, enforced barbarically at times, can lead to therapeutic benefit. I told her I tried it again, but I'm actually doing things during the day now, so I think she's okay with the "don't ask, don't tell" that I suggested.

I am a VERY unique case given my past mental history and such. But here's my final word:

1. Kratom has powerful medicinal potential
2. Kratom itself is extremely safe to consume
3. Kratom can be so addictive that the withdrawals are 99% unbearable.

Take it as you will, and happy psychonautic journeys abound.

Apostacious
21-05-2011, 07:46
Well, I'm past the 72 hour mark since I've last had kratom, and for the most part, it is bearable. I have been taking 15-20 grams of kratom once daily for the past 9-10 months, and before that used it 3-5 times a week for about a year with breaks here and there. The withdrawals aren't that bad, at all for me. I have found that a potent batch of kava root is a great ally for the RLS, depression and insomnia.

I think that some people in this thread need to make it very clear that there is a distinction between withdrawals from plain leaf kratom and from kratom extracts. Kratom extracts can cause a dependence that is just as difficult to break as moderately strong opiates. Yet, plain leaf kratom will create a rather weak dependence, especially if it is faithfully taken only once a day. The main reason why plain leaf kratom is most forgiving, is because its alkaloid profile is rather high in opiod and NMDA antagonists, while kratom extracts tend to be very low in opiod and NMDA antagonists. One can tell this is so if they take a lot of plain leaf. There is a ceiling effect with plain leaf, such that one doesn't get a pleasant euphoric/mood-lifting effect past a certain point, and that is partially due to a saturation limit of mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine at the mu- and delta- opiod receptors, mitraphylline's effects as a NMDA antagonist which has a tendency to lower one's tolerance to the mu and delta opiod agonist effects of mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine, AND because of Corynantheidine's opiod antagonist effect, which ultimately is what limits the saturation point by which mitragynine and 7-ho-mitragynine can reach with mu- and delta- opiod receptors. On the other hand, if one takes extracts like UEI, FST, among other legitimate extracts, the ceiling effect is very high, and indeed, one will feel very high. Further, if one sticks to just extracts, they will find that it is very difficult to maintain a certain level of inebriation with a consistent dose, day after day, and they will keep taking more and more. Therefore, everyone should avoid taking kratom extracts daily as much as possible. If anything is going to get kratom banned, it will be the extracts.

To alleviate withdrawals, one can do more than just consume kava root. I highly recommend that a person withdrawing from kratom exercises, a lot. This will stimulate endorphin production, and can encourage endogenous endorphin pathways by which the body regulates pain. Further, one should obviously eat healthy, and eat often, as it will only hasten recovery. Finally, a person withdrawing from kratom should try to read extensively, and train oneself in meditation. Reading will strengthen one's concentration, and meditation will benefit from that increased concentration and combat the insomnia by which one suffers the most. If a person could sleep, withdrawal would be much more manageable. So, above all, one should always focus on ways by which one could sleep better, even if that means one would have to take diphenhydramine, kava, doxylamine succinate, valerian root, melatonin, alcohol (try to limit this to once every 2-3 nights), among other tools.

Finally, withdrawal is only as hard as you make it. I have seen proof of that from people that have been in abrupt discontinuation withdrawal from long-term benzodiazepine "therapy," and they still went to work, and tried to keep a smile on their face. The human mind is capable of tremendous things, and one should never discount the option that there are different approaches to one's suffering. Some approaches can annihilate a person's connection to it, and as a result, limit the affect the suffering has on the individual. Subjective suffering is measured by a constantly changing yardstick that is partially dependent on one's genetics (some people are blessed to not have ever experienced withdrawal despite being in a situation that would guarantee it for others) and mostly dependent on one's ability to cope with suffering. Something to keep in mind.

Pegasus
01-06-2011, 07:07
People that have withdrawn from kratom, what's the average length of withdrawal? I'm seeing numbers from 3-4 days to a month or longer. I'm sure the longer cases are PAWS, but I'm on day 8 right now and still feeling pretty poor if I don't take my loperamide. The headaches are really the most bothersome thing at this point in time, very different to withdrawal from classic opiates IMO. Anyway, I'm trying to get a feel for how long most people's withdrawal lasts. It is certainly not the same as withdrawal from other opiates...

Kratom was my King
01-06-2011, 20:01
Greetings!

I posted in another thread, sorry, newbie and in w/d from copious amounts of Kratom extracts. The UEI and FST. My cocktail of choice if you will, was 1/4 tsp of UEI and about 60 drops of FST. That got me going in the morning. Next dose was that same amount, 3 hours later, then 2 to 4 more doses through out the day. Very expensive. Dropping about $3000 every 2 months.... buying 100ml of FST at a pop, and that would only last about 17 days if I really tried to stretch it. Last Friday was my last dose of this crap. I want my life back. I still am having w/ds pretty good. Used benzos for 2 days for sleep, and last night I was out of them, and guess what, no sleep. I am on day 5 and feeling much better than the first couple of days, but not near 100%.

I have kicked a year long hydro habit of 150mg daily with ease compared to the hell this shit is causing.

I would love to know the half life of this "plant". The extracts are what did me in. I think if you use the leaf only, you won't have to much problems coming of it.

My 2 cents.

Pegasus
01-06-2011, 20:02
^I used plain leaf only... I'm on day 9 of w/d right now.