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dredmentia
25-09-2008, 12:57
Hello All,
I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the effects of suboxone on your tolerance. When im not doing oxy, I usually take 4 mg of sub a day. However, If I take 4 mg of sub for a week, then stop for 2 days, and take my usual oxy dose (120mg), I feel as though the sub did not do anything to lower my tolerance, I feel like I would have gotten the same effects had I been doing oxy instead of sub.

What im asking is does anyone whos taken Suboxone long term notice that i has a permanent or long last effect on your tolerance? Because for example, say I quit cold turkey for 2 weeks, and then took the 120mg of Oxy, i would definetly have been much higher than if i had been taking the sub. Im starting to think I should stop using sub for maitainence and only for short 4-5 day detoxes. I dont like having to "plan" when I can use opiates due to my sub dosage/tolerance. Im sure other people who take sub can relate to what im saying.

CTdopeLove
25-09-2008, 19:54
Suboxone is a partial opiate agonist, so if you take a dose of suboxone that's equivalent to your dose of oxycodone, your tolerance is never going to go down. If you want your tolerance to go down, stop taking oxy for a month, and only take 0.5mg of suboxone per day. This isn't going to bring you back to baseline, but your tolerance will go down.

If you quit oxy for a month and take 4mg of suboxone per day, when you start taking oxy again your tolerance will probably be about the same.

~CTdopeLove

StaffWriter
25-09-2008, 20:41
I had surgery and quit taking 16mg a day. I had oxy, hydro and dilaudid. Nothing got me high. I mean I got high, but it was very dull, even a week off the Subs. It's like my tolerance went UP. Now there is no reason for me to even go off the Sub for a couple of days to recapture a high. Not worth the trouble, and thats probably a good thing.

CTdopeLove
25-09-2008, 22:13
I'm on 8mg/day, and when I jump off to use heroin, I can get very high off 3-4 bags of dope. This is only 12-15 hours after my last 2mg (I take 2mg, 4x per day, which seems to cause the bupe to burn through your system faster).

~CTdopeLove

sixpartseven
25-09-2008, 22:15
Suboxone is a very potent opiate. It will raise your tolerance is you are taking more than you should. At low doses, people (including myself) have said that there tolerance has gone unchanged, and in some cases lowered.

There is no way for us to tell you what dose will raise YOUR tolerance. It is different for everyone and depends on a lot of things.

I am merging this into the Suboxone Mega Thread, where it should have been posted to begin with.

StaffWriter
25-09-2008, 23:07
^^I kinda figured that was the deal. So yeah, I'm probably taking more than my habit required, but I'm only comfortable at this dose. Taking only 8mg or less makes me feel withdrawalish. 16mg gives me energy for the whole day.

dankstersauce
26-09-2008, 05:56
i have a quick question about darvocet and suboxone.

Basically it's another one of those how long should i wait before I take my suboxone.

Heres a little background, I've been using poppy pods for a couple weeks, and stopped taking them 3-4 days ago. Today at work some kid that works nearby comes up to me and gives me 2 darvocets (I don't know about the mg.) So i ended up taking them. I hate darvocet, but i was at work, i felt shitty and I figured 'why not?'. I don't know if it was placebo, but I did feel that I had a more positive outlook on the rest of the night.

Then my boss comes by, and she knew I was kicking so she gave me half a 8mg suboxone. So now i'm wondering if it's cool to take my 4 mgs of suboxone tomorrow morning....roughly 14 hours after the darvocet??? I don't know the milligram....and i can't find anything useful using the search engine....besides this:
http://www.doitnow.org/jpg/157.jpg
^^^lol @darvocet 8) I really doubt I'd get sick(er) but i'd like a second opinion.

dredmentia
26-09-2008, 13:50
Yeah, sounds like you guys nailed what I was getting at. It seems like 4 MG of Suboxone is equal to at least 80 mg of oxy, so, even when I take suboxone for weeks at a time, its really no different than me taking oxy. I was hoping that if I could use 4 mg of suboxone for the 2 weeks of the month I dont use opiates, my tolerance would go down, but apparently thats not the case in my experience and others. I guess if you really want to enjoy opiates again, the best thing to do is detox with the Sub instead of taking it on days when your not using. Because even if I wait 48 hours after doing sub, I still don't get all that great of a high, its like my habit picked up right where it left off. On the other hand, when I quit cold turkey for 21 days, 2 30 Mg roxies got me floored. That would never happen now.

Another question bout suboxone I had asked that kinda went unanswered. Do you guys feel that suboxone has some type of permanent effect on your tolerance in general. Like does it chemically rewire your receptors so that it makes it much harder to get high, even if you stop taking it for a while. I have a friend whos been on Suboxone for 3 years, and he tells me when he stops that he never gets the same effects he used to before he started the suboxone. Id like to see if anyone else has experienced this, I think I have to some extent. if this is the case, then I definetely want to get off Suboxone. Ill just go to a Methadone program at that point if i really need it for maitanence, because Im starting to think Suboxone is not the best choice for an opiate dependency problem. Its a relatively new drug, and the side effects haven't been researched alot. Oh well, maybe in 10 years I can be part of a class action lawsuit against it. I really think the stuff is bad for you.

dredmentia
26-09-2008, 14:12
i have a quick question about darvocet and suboxone.

Basically it's another one of those how long should i wait before I take my suboxone.

Heres a little background, I've been using poppy pods for a couple weeks, and stopped taking them 3-4 days ago. Today at work some kid that works nearby comes up to me and gives me 2 darvocets (I don't know about the mg.) So i ended up taking them. I hate darvocet, but i was at work, i felt shitty and I figured 'why not?'. I don't know if it was placebo, but I did feel that I had a more positive outlook on the rest of the night.

Then my boss comes by, and she knew I was kicking so she gave me half a 8mg suboxone. So now i'm wondering if it's cool to take my 4 mgs of suboxone tomorrow morning....roughly 14 hours after the darvocet??? I don't know the milligram....and i can't find anything useful using the search engine....besides this:
http://www.doitnow.org/jpg/157.jpg
^^^lol @darvocet 8) I really doubt I'd get sick(er) but i'd like a second opinion.


Dude your using Suboxone to kick doing Darvocet, probably the weakest opiate? Honestly I would just ride it out cold turkey, I would imagine youd have to be taking ALOT of Darvocet for a LONG time in order to require suboxone to get off it. But yeah, youll be fine taking the sub 14 hours after Darvocet. Infact, youll prolly get more of a buzz off the Suboxone than the Darvocet. - Dred

kadaj
26-09-2008, 17:31
Dude your using Suboxone to kick doing Darvocet, probably the weakest opiate? Honestly I would just ride it out cold turkey, I would imagine youd have to be taking ALOT of Darvocet for a LONG time in order to require suboxone to get off it. But yeah, youll be fine taking the sub 14 hours after Darvocet. Infact, youll prolly get more of a buzz off the Suboxone than the Darvocet. - Dred

He's been using poppy pods, first thing he said if you read his post. Dankster- you are definitely ok to use suboxone 14 hours after something as weak as Darvon. I use sub as quick as 8 hours after using dope and I've never had precip. w/d. although I don't use a lot of dope.

CocksuckerNJ
27-09-2008, 11:43
i wanted to see what it would be like. i'm not on suboxone therapy. so i split apart an 8mg pill and crushed it and shot it. i felt something. but am not high or anything. it's been like 40 mins. i def. feel something, but it's subtle. so i snorted the other half. oh well...

sixpartseven
28-09-2008, 02:09
I'm only saying this one more time:

THERE IS NO SET TIME FOR WHEN YOU SHOULD TAKE YOUR SUBOXONE AFTER TAKING ANOTHER OPIATE. WHEN THE WITHDRAWALS START, YOU ARE SAFE TO TAKE THE SUBOXONE.


Dude your using Suboxone to kick doing Darvocet, probably the weakest opiate? Honestly I would just ride it out cold turkey, I would imagine youd have to be taking ALOT of Darvocet for a LONG time in order to require suboxone to get off it. But yeah, youll be fine taking the sub 14 hours after Darvocet. Infact, youll prolly get more of a buzz off the Suboxone than the Darvocet. - Dred

Did you even read his post? He's kicking poppy pods. He only took darvocet once.

But either way, if he's gone 3 days without pods and nothing else, there is no reason to even be taking suboxone now. Obviously you dont need it if you made it through the first 3 days (also the worst 3 days) of the withdrawals.

spookz
02-10-2008, 23:38
OK I'm currently on 2mg of suboxone a day. I notice when I go to play sports like basketball and tennis, I just start to sweat balls. I get very hot and even when I'm not playing and it's just hot outside I still seem to be sweating more than the people I'm with. Does anybody else get this too? Is it even from the suboxone or could it be something else. It wasn't like this before...

Supeudol
03-10-2008, 00:54
I get like this from Methadone. I SWEAT like fucking crazy when I'm on a high dose of Methadone! I haven't heard of sweating being a side effect of Suboxone though.

sixpartseven
03-10-2008, 01:11
All opiates make you feel warm, so obviously your body will heat up faster.

This should have been posted in the suboxone mega thread, which is where Im moving it.

d-brock
04-10-2008, 05:44
Someone suggested to me once that neurontin along with a benzo would help significantly. I haven't experienced any other usual opiate withdrawal symptoms except extreme dysphoria and anxiety which I can't handle. I have pretty bad anxiety anyways which is one of the reasons I was taking the subs. I'm going to see my psych doc tuesday and he'll pretty much help me out. I need to get off these subs without going crazy like losing my job and some worse things I won't say here.

So the neurontin along with a benzo you think will help with the dysphoria and EXTREME anxiety? Once I stop these subs my body feels extremely uncomfortable, I'm not myself and I can't tolerate it. Sometimes it's so bad I almost end up in the ER. I also think some other things are going on, not just the detox'n of the suboxone..

The thing is I can't get any subs and i'm going to have to do this with the help of other meds. This shit has my job in jeapordy , I was taking these subs soo stupid and careless. I didnt know about ceiling effects etc.. I was taking 4-5 8mg's every other day which has led me to some horrible things. I really can't tolerate whats going on so when I see my psych doc I want to be prepared on what to ask for.

Subreflex
04-10-2008, 06:09
Someone suggested to me once that neurontin along with a benzo would help significantly. I haven't experienced any other usual opiate withdrawal symptoms except extreme dysphoria and anxiety which I can't handle. I have pretty bad anxiety anyways which is one of the reasons I was taking the subs. I'm going to see my psych doc tuesday and he'll pretty much help me out. I need to get off these subs without going crazy like losing my job and some worse things I won't say here.

So the neurontin along with a benzo you think will help with the dysphoria and EXTREME anxiety? Once I stop these subs my body feels extremely uncomfortable, I'm not myself and I can't tolerate it. Sometimes it's so bad I almost end up in the ER. I also think some other things are going on, not just the detox'n of the suboxone..

The thing is I can't get any subs and i'm going to have to do this with the help of other meds. This shit has my job in jeapordy , I was taking these subs soo stupid and careless. I didnt know about ceiling effects etc.. I was taking 4-5 8mg's every other day which has led me to some horrible things. I really can't tolerate whats going on so when I see my psych doc I want to be prepared on what to ask for.


Good god man. 32-40mg's (every other) day is going to take a while to taper off from.

Honestly though I think your best bet would be taper off the suboxone and tell your doc about your severe anxiety.

An intelligent taper regiment will let you jump off the suboxone bus with virtually no withdrawal symptoms, but with that high daily dose it could take up to a month to taper.

I've noticed suboxone begins to lose it anti-depressive and anti-anxiety properties after the 3-4 month mark at 1-2mg daily doses.
Which can be remidied with the 3 day fast.(given that your tolerance is semi-low and don't use opiates in those 3 days)

Addiction to suboxone probably wont get you anything(drug wise) but a kind word, maybe.

You may get some benzo's depending on your doc.

Good luck.

d-brock
04-10-2008, 06:41
Thanks Sub, I know i've gotten myself in quite a mess. Worst i've felt in my life. My doctor is really good, he shouldnt mind prescribing me what i ask for if my reasons are legitimate. My doctor knows nothing of the suboxone, just that i am a sober alcholic with severe anxiety and severe dysphoria, which should work out. It has in the past, also PTSD is another diagnosis for me. Because my father committed suicide when i was 14 and i found him. This is going to be such a long process and i'm sticking to it. It feels i will never feel normal ever again. I used to be the happiest outgoing full of energy person. People at work know something going on with me, something bad..

God i wish i knew what i was getting into before i started these subs like candy...

So Neurontin or Lyrica and some k'pins should help me out alot with this long process? God, months! I didn't even think subs had withdrawal problems. I'm in for a ride..

Any other meds that could help?

I've had some really bad thoughts while feeling this way and thank god for my family I wouldn't act on any of them.

Thanks again m8 .. I hope I'm making sense here, I'm having quite the trouble thinking straight.

Subreflex
04-10-2008, 07:12
Thanks Sub, I know i've gotten myself in quite a mess. Worst i've felt in my life. My doctor is really good, he shouldnt mind prescribing me what i ask for if my reasons are legitimate. My doctor knows nothing of the suboxone, just that i am a sober alcholic with severe anxiety and severe dysphoria, which should work out. It has in the past, also PTSD is another diagnosis for me. Because my father committed suicide when i was 14 and i found him. This is going to be such a long process and i'm sticking to it. It feels i will never feel normal ever again. I used to be the happiest outgoing full of energy person. People at work know something going on with me, something bad..

God i wish i knew what i was getting into before i started these subs like candy...

So Neurontin or Lyrica and some k'pins should help me out alot with this long process? God, months! I didn't even think subs had withdrawal problems. I'm in for a ride..

Any other meds that could help?

I've had some really bad thoughts while feeling this way and thank god for my family I wouldn't act on any of them.

Thanks again m8 .. I hope I'm making sense here, I'm having quite the trouble thinking straight.

Sorry my post got a bit convoluted.

I'd say just 1month-6 weeks to finish a taper schedule. I'd stick to the neurontin for daily use, the kpins for panic attacks/anxiety(as needed). The lyrica probably isn't necessary.

How long have you been on that huge dose?

Edit: What were you prescribed the suboxone for?

d-brock
04-10-2008, 10:53
6 months on that disgusting dose of the subs. The subs I got off the street, it totally made my anxiety dissapear. I'm also an alcoholic so it's better to do the subs than get back to drinking ending up in jail.. I was soo unaware about anything with these things with the long term effects. (this is before i got hooked up with a psych doc)

So neurontin and k'pins, anything else? It feels like my whole body is restless, totally uncomfortable, dysphoria and anxiety that seems it could be deadly. Everyone i know it worried about me. They're worried about suicide I'm sure because my father killed himself. Like i sad before, mabey there are other things going on with me, not just the detox'n suboxone. I'm seeing my psychiatrist tuesday. He will think all this anxiety and dysphoria was from all my years of heavily drinking so no probs getting the meds i need seeing how i've been abstinent from the liquor for quite a while...

Any other meds or tips to make this process somewhat easier. I'm a strong person but this is totally different. I can't even explain it.

D's
04-10-2008, 17:51
hey all,
just want to say that subs and kpins work great together.
I take my 2mg klo, and 4mg sub twice a day, and feel great.

d-brock
04-10-2008, 20:07
I feel no effects of benzo's while on subs. Fuck subs though, im trying to kick that shit.

Subreflex
05-10-2008, 01:36
6 months on that disgusting dose of the subs. The subs I got off the street, it totally made my anxiety dissapear. I'm also an alcoholic so it's better to do the subs than get back to drinking ending up in jail.. I was soo unaware about anything with these things with the long term effects. (this is before i got hooked up with a psych doc)

So neurontin and k'pins, anything else? It feels like my whole body is restless, totally uncomfortable, dysphoria and anxiety that seems it could be deadly. Everyone i know it worried about me. They're worried about suicide I'm sure because my father killed himself. Like i sad before, mabey there are other things going on with me, not just the detox'n suboxone. I'm seeing my psychiatrist tuesday. He will think all this anxiety and dysphoria was from all my years of heavily drinking so no probs getting the meds i need seeing how i've been abstinent from the liquor for quite a while...

Any other meds or tips to make this process somewhat easier. I'm a strong person but this is totally different. I can't even explain it.

So you were taking 32-40mg's recreationally?8o

So, if you're detoxing from suboxone means you haven't dosed in 2-3 days?
You won't be able to quit that much cold turkey,
drop your daily dose to
16mg's for 2days
12mg's for 2 days
8mg's for 3 days
6mg's for 3 days
4mg's for 4 days
3mg's for 4 days
2.5mg's for 4 days
(stuck ;_;)

(kind of stuck, i've read abit about successful taper schedules and some have days where you don't dose, the longest/hardest part will be dropping from 4mg's to freedom, input greatly appreciated mods and others)

d-brock
05-10-2008, 20:39
Thanks alot, now im praying while using some benzo's for help.. If anyone is interested in my progress for more knowledge, wether it's for someone else or themselves. Pm me or just reply to thiis...I now must sleep, 12 hour night tonight at work, 7-7. worked last night, havent slept yet...meh..thanks <u> everyone</u> truley. TC & GL

dbrock

psychotic
06-10-2008, 14:25
Ok, I've seen a few questions on here that have already been answered, yet some still seem confused... so I would like to try and clarify:
APOLOGY IN ADVANCED IF SOME OF THIS IS OPIATE RELATED AS WELL AS SUBOXONE INFO... JUST TRYING TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS


No this wasnt withdrawal! Ive been an oxycontin addict for 3 years now and have been in withdrawal, i have also beenin withdrawal from taking my sub to early and this wasnt withdrawal

Coley.. the precipitated withdrawal isn't going to be drawn out a week like regular oxycodone withdrawal....
I'd say, without getting scientific... Picture a violent war between the opiod effects of buprenorphine and the opoid you took. The 2 substances basically 'fighting' over your receptors causes a fast, hardcore withdrawl.
Unlike regular withdrawl, it doesn't build up slowly over a few days, luckily you don't go through it near as long, but I still would never want to endure it.

Also, since you were taking methadone... it last a VERY long time compared to other opiates, and is actually quite strong (this is often not considered, as the 'recreational' effects are not as pronounced, but the opiod effect is still very strong)

The same goes for suboxone, it is stronger than most people think, I *believe* the last equvialent charge for opiods that had buprenorphine compared 2mg of bup to 80 mg of Oxy (Yes, just a 1/4 of the suboxone N8 would be comparable to 80 mg of oxycodone, but NOT in recreation uses).... this is why most people can take just 1/4 of an 8mg suboxone tab and end their withdrawals within 15-30 min.... BUT ending the withdrawls is not = to ending the addiction... I'll explain a bit more later.


I read the post in the Other Drugs Directory about shooting Suboxone with diphenhydramine....

I've been on Sub for about 5 months and currently take 24 milligrams a day. When I first started taking it, 2 milligrams would give me a mild euphoria, now I have to use 32 milligrams at a time to get the same effect :\.

I'd like to try it with some diphenhydramine just for the hell of it.... What would be a good starting dose of diphenhydramine? 75 mgs? 100 mgs?

Nocturnal - The naloxone is in Suboxone to prevent people from shooting it. I would highly advise that you do NOT inject suboxone. If it is subutex, which is buprenorphine without the added naloxone, that is a different story... and MAY provide some effect.... but I still do not believe injecting would have a major advantage over snorting/plugging the powder.

diphenhydramine does potentiate other opiods, so it is likely it would work with buprenorphine as well... HOWEVER, remember that suboxone has a 'ceiling' effect that begins right around 32 mg(if i remember correctly), so you should not get much of an increase in euphoria beyond that dose.

Side note (*Potentiators*):
Although many substances are listed as 'potentiators for opiates'... many are simple 'synergy'... as in, you would expect benzos to increase the 'fuzzing/warmth' of opiates, you would expect cyclobenzaprine to increase the 'relaxation', etc...
However, so far I HAVE found that while taken alone, diphenhydramine (benadryl, unisom) usually makes me drowsy, it does not when used with opiates... it seems to be an all around enhancement. As far as the ammount to start with, I took one more tab than the normal recommended dose of benadryl, which would be 75mg diphenhydramine.
This also goes for cimetidine (tagament), as this acid reducer seems to be an 'all around' potentiator... obviously it is not recreational on its own, so there is not any 'synergy' to be had..

It may be important to note (with reference to feeling opiates while taking Buprenorphine):

I take 8-16 mg (used to be 24mg ) of suboxone daily (been taking it for almost 3 years now). After waiting 24 hours and snorting some oxycodone (120-240 mg / roxicodone 30mg blues), I still felt very little effect, just a slight buzz, and MUCH shorter than expected...
However, remembering how much tagament helped in the past (the only time OC has caused me to 'nod off')...

I have since tried the same doses, only this time taking 2 tabs of Tagament (400mg Cimetidine), an hour before snorting the roxy 30s. To my surprise, it had a significant effect... The duration and strength were still not equivalent to a similar does before suboxone treatment, but it was noticable. (I'd estimate the effects were a little less than 2/3 without suboxone treatment, and the euphoria lasted 3-4.5 hours rather than it usually lasting 6+ for me...)

I have yet to try diphenhydramine and see if it helps even with the suboxone, but I think I will....

Here are some of my favorite opiate potentiators... [which means they could also help bypass the blocking effect of buprenorphine?]
Ok they aren't my FAVORITE, but probably the best...
(BECAUSE THEY ARE OVER THE COUNTER! no script needed!):

*Cimetidine ... Tagamet HB 200, 200 mg tablets, It is an acid reducer that can be found at most stores, and for sure pharmacies.
1-3 tablets (takes one hour to be effective, so try and take before the opiate, or at the same time, and you might get them to peak at the same time?) This is my favorite because it seems to enhance the overall effect of opiates, and not just increase or synergize a single effect that the potentiator provides without opiates.

*Diphenhydramine ... Benadryl, Unisom, other sleeping/allergy meds. It is an antihistamine, with a large side effect of drowsiness, hence why i is used as a sleeping aid as well. Like I said earlier, usually this stuff makes me feel useless and tired for hours. I expected it to only increase the 'warmth' or 'relaxation', as it causes that naturally... However I felt no increase in drowsiness. Personally I believe this too, may be an 'all-around' opiate potentiator. Personally, I would stay in the range of 50-100mg, but thats also because I'm afraid it will knock me out...

*Naproxen... Aleve, off-brand "Naproxen". Anti-inflamitory/pain reducer.. Very nice to enhance the WARMTH and RELAXATION effects of opiates. When I take Aleve w/ opiates, I take 2-3 of the gel tabs (so i'd recommend 1 to 2x the recommended dose)

*St Johns Wart... I HAVE NOT tried this one myself, however it is non-prescription and I have heard from many many sources it enchances the STIMULANT effect of opiates. I am definately going to give this one a shot, as I enjoy the way Oxy and other opiates motivate me and keep me awake, as I usually do not nod off. As I have not tried this, I do not know the effective dose.....

*Acetaminophen.... Tylenol, off-brand THIS IS USUALLY NOT LISTED AS A POTENTIATOR... However, with my experience... I have found that some people are able to get high off of percocet (oxycodone +tylenol) yet not oxycodone.... and having tried percocet many times, I too have noticed it seems to notibally increased the BODY high / effects of the opiate. To investigate this, (before starting suboxone), I had a lower than normal dose of oxycodone... then calculated the ammount of tylenol would be in it. The oxycodone was an 80mg oxycontin (name brand), which would be 2,600mg of tylenol if taken as 10/325 percocets... I did experience a DISTINCT increase in the BODY effects of the opiate, and possible a slight increase in the EUPHORIA as well. Although this data is based on my subjective experience, so it may be placebo. *PLEASE REMEMBER, TYLENOL IS HORRIBLE FOR YOUR LIVER IN HIGH DOSES.... NEVER DRINK WHEN CONSUMING THIS AMMOUNT, AND HONESTLY I WOULDN'T DRINK ON ANY OPIATE EITHER!!!(for an idea of the cut-off point, 3,000-4,000mg is the most you should really take in one day, and even then do not do that over a period of time).

psychotic
06-10-2008, 14:35
Is it safe to say I kicked the habit? It's now Wednesday and I have yet to re-dose sub(62 hours) or heroin(88 hours) since. Why am I not feeling any discomfort? By this time the bupe should most definitely be out of my system. Is there any logical explanation? Why are some people on it for months or years at a time and I have had success(somewhat) with one 8mg dose?

njevad-
*Is it safe to say I kicked the habit?
No... sorry, but no.

*By this time the bupe should most definitely be out of my system. Is there any logical explanation?
Suboxone (buprenorphine) has a very long half life compared to other opiates... If you have ever withdrawn cold turkey, you should know the worst day is usually the 3rd day.... but this varies depending on the half life of the opiate. For methadone and suboxone, the half-life is longer, thus the withdrawl is usually longer (but hopefully less severe)

HOWEVER, you may be correct that the opiates ARE mostly out of your system... this means you have gone through the physical withdrawal ( the part that FEELs the worst)

Why are some people on it for months or years at a time and I have had success(somewhat) with one 8mg dose?
Many people stop their withdrawls with a 2mg dose, and have no idea why anyone would need 16-24mg a day (the average dose). It seems extremely high if a dose 10x smaller can stop withdrawal symptoms...
The problem is I mentioned the physical withdrawal feels the worst... but the worst part of kicking the habbit, is a "secondary withdrawl" (3-6 months, if I remember correctly, possibly a year).

psychotic
06-10-2008, 14:46
Secondary withdrawl is just the term I refer to it as, but it is basically the period in which your body has adjusted to functioning without the opiates... However your brain has not recovered. ...(I am not a neurologist, and this is not exact and detailed, however it serves to provide an image of why therapuetic doses are necessary)
The bodies natural opiates, opiod peptides... mainly endorphines... if you imagine them produced in a factory... that factory shuts down when you are flooding your body with outside opiates (and become phsycially dependent) Once you withdrawl, that 'factory' begains produce these natural opiods again, but it is not operating at 100%. The other issue involved in this 'secondary withdrawl' is your opiate receptors... Imagine a grassy hill with the 'factory' at the top, and natural endorphine (natural opiods) about the size and weight of baseballs. now along this hill are the opiate receptors, like little rounded out spots, perfect for the 'basball' endorphines to fit into. When we add opiates like oxy, heroine, even hydrocodone, especially over extended time... you can imagine these as large bowling balls rather than the baseball sized natural opiods, and much more of them... The 'factory' detects less endorphines/natural opiods need to be produced and shuts down... meanwhile, the 'bowling balls' from abuse of other opiates, they damage some of the receptors a long the hill, and also fewer receptors are required, because of the plentiful supply of stronger outside opiates. Now, you have receptors that are 'damaged' and expect more than the natural opiod can produce, and you also have fewer of these receptors because you didn't need as many, not to mention the 'natural opiod factory' has shut down...
so you stop opiates, withdrawal happens... and your body begins to make endorphines again, enough to stop the physical syptoms.... but the receptor and gaining back the proper level of natural opiods simply takes much longer... especially if you were using longer (because more damage was done)...

SO I had a friend who tried to tell me I was just replacing one drug for another by being on suboxone, especially when my dose was increased to 24 mg. HE ONLY NEEDED 2mg and then HE was fine and had NO WITHDRAWLS, so to him, I was obviously just addicted to suboxone instead of oxycodone...
but there was another obvious think he didn't realize... after taking the suboxone, he would relapse within 2-3 days.... If I stuck to my proper ammount of suboxone, I still relapsed, but it was more like 1-2 times a month..
The dose to stop withdrawal = VERY low.
The THERAPUTIC dose, the dose to stop CRAVINGS = average of 16-24 mg

I forced myself through cold turkey withdrawl several times before relizing I needed somethin else.... It wasn't the withdrawl I needed to kick... it was the habit. Even though I WANTED to, I would unconciously tell myself to get oxy, at the same time telling myself no... but it was like once that craving begun, it just manifested itself and got worse and worse, even though I knew the negative effects, I knew I would withdrawal again, I knew I didn't have the money.... I even dreamed every night about FINDING PILLS! it was completely unconscious that my brain was craving the opiates, even after I was ready to quite and had forced myself through withdrawl.

So with suboxone, you may think that you have kicked the habbit, but for months afterwards, you need that theraputic level to be high enough to not only get rid of withdrawl, but also cravings. Due to the limited euphoric effects of buprenorphine, suboxone has also been shown to allow receptor sites to improve, as well as natural opiod production.. (NO, not completely... it is still a partial opiod)... The next person question will address how you use this along with medically supervised withdrawal to get off suboxone (once you feel like you are in control of your cravings... you don't want to push it too fast and relapse...)

This "secondary withdrawal", as I have termed it, includes these symptoms (from wikipedia:)
Opioid Peptides are short sequences of amino acids which mimic the effect of opiates in the brain. Opioid peptides may be produced by the body itself, for example endorphins, or be absorbed from partially digested food (casomorphins, exorphins and rubiscolins). The effect of these peptides vary, but they all resemble opiates. The opioid food peptides have lengths of typically 4-8 amino acids. The body's own opioids are generally much longer.

Brain opioid peptide systems are known to play an important role in motivation, emotion, attachment behaviour, the response to stress and pain, and the control of food intake.

When you are lacking the proper ammount of natural opiods, you see above what can be affected. For me, it was:
Motivation (I was lethargic for serveral months AFTER detox),
Attachment behaviour AND the response to stress and pain: (I could not keep thoughts of how nice an oc would be, they would randomly sprout with no trigger.....and of course my instant reponse to stress or aching pain was to turn back to opiates)
Control of food intake: I ate even less than when I was on opiates.

psychotic
06-10-2008, 14:48
Theres a theory that low doses of naloxone/naltrexone can lower opiate tolerance if taken with other opiates. So by that logic, taking the naloxone with the suboxone should lower your tolerance some.

Even if that isnt the case, I have noticed that your tolerance does tend to shrink over time when on suboxone. I dont know if it can happen over just a few days, but it can definitely happen over a larger time span (multiple months) if you dont over-do it with the suboxone. My tolerance to heroin now is smaller than it was 15 months ago.


no way man... i was on fuckin 0.3mg a day for 6 months and my tolerance SKY-ROCKETED... usually 30-40mg of roxicodone/oxycontin would be enough to get me high if i IV'd, plugged or even sniffed/swallowed it.. .but if i took 2 or 3 days off from my tiny dose of sub i'd need 90-150mg to feel anything..it sucked...


The naloxone is to prevent abuse of the suboxone by injection. I do not believe it has significant bioavailability used sublingual, otherwise it would counter the buprenorphine. Also, the fact that per mg, buprenorphine comparison charts show buprenorphine to be 20 times stronger than oxycodone [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opiate_comparison ], means I doubt it is going to lower anyones tolerance unless you have purified fentanyl into a powder and got hooked on that. :) excuse the sarcasm... with my personal experience, although it seems impossible based on the relatively LOW recreation (body, euphoria) effects, I have noticed that HAS raised my tolerance level (at least while I'm at the theraputic level)

psychotic
06-10-2008, 14:49
damn.

I got my first bottle of suboxone today. (60, 8mg)

When i recieved this bottle my plan was to take my first dose tomorrow morning because at the time my last shot was taken at 5am, 9/23.

I ended up scoring, and now my last shot was taken at 3:32pm, 9/24

I fucked myself over and i'm gonna be sick all day at school and work tomorrow.

I should've waited...


CLEARING UP THE PRECIPITATED WITHDRAWAL QUESTIONS!
johanneschimpo, and sixpartseven have clearly stated this, but for those who continue to ask....

BASICALLY... if you are HIGH on any opiate, do not take suboxone...

IF you feel ANY sort of come down, ANY sign that you need MORE of that opiate in order to feel 'Normal', it is safe to take suboxone...

IF YOU WANT TO BE 100% SAFE...
time is still NOT what you use, go by what you FEEL
wait for a DEFINATE sign of withdrawal... shakes, stomach craps, DILATED PUPILS, generally feeling like crap...

I feel if you have taken opiates enough that you need suboxone to help withdrawl, then you should be able to feel what it is like when the drug wears off... It is not the same as how long it can be detected in your body... it is the point that the high is gone AND you feel the signs that withdrawl is about the start... YOU DO NOT have to suffer before you take suboxone, you just want to make sure that the opiate you took is not still regulating your body, as in... you feel no high, no body high, no stimulant effect, no euphoria, but to be safe you also shouldn't feel 'NORMAL'... many of us have been to the point that you don't have enough to get 'high' but enough to make you feel 'normal'. The second that you know the drug has completely worn off, suboxone is a go to feel better. I Find one the easist ways is the size of your pupils.... They tend to get big before most of the withdrawl sets in, also aches and pains... you don't have to wait until you are throwing up, shaking, or have the runs...

ALSO:
Precipitated withdrawl only occurs when you take SUBOXONE while still high on an OPIATE, not the other way around... people ask "How long do I have to wait before I can take a pill after suboxone... I'm scared of precipitated withdrawal" YOU CAN TAKE IT 30 MINUTES AFTER THE SUBOXONE IS DISOLVED. It will most likely do NOTHING, but you will not go into withdrawl from taking an opiate while on suboxone... only the other way around.

psychotic
06-10-2008, 14:51
OK I'm currently on 2mg of suboxone a day. I notice when I go to play sports like basketball and tennis, I just start to sweat balls. I get very hot and even when I'm not playing and it's just hot outside I still seem to be sweating more than the people I'm with. Does anybody else get this too? Is it even from the suboxone or could it be something else. It wasn't like this before...

My face sweats like CRAZY from suboxone, as well as most opiates. I also have found that if you are taking antidepressants... the combination makes it quite a bit worse, at least for me... I believe the welbutrin + suboxone especially does it to me...



So the neurontin along with a benzo you think will help with the dysphoria and EXTREME anxiety? Once I stop these subs my body feels extremely uncomfortable, I'm not myself and I can't tolerate it. Sometimes it's so bad I almost end up in the ER. I also think some other things are going on, not just the detox'n of the suboxone..


My psych had me on massive ammounts of benzos... at first he was reluctant because I had an opiate problem. (In fact I doubt you will get any benzos from most doctors if you mention any type of addiction). I could completely negate most of the withdrawl symptoms (mental) with klonopin and xanax xr. I also had anxiety problems before the opiates, but I never got help for it til the opiate withdrawal made it so severe. The problem is that benzos are extremely addictive as well... Not only will this probably prevent the doc from writing a script... if he did, you might just replace one addiction for another?? Not to mention mixing benzos and opiates are extremely dangerous.... having a tolerance usually means your body can handle what could kill others...but most doctors don't see that way.... some doctors even question why I'm on suboxone and klonopine (although a lot less than before)

Like I said, I controlled almost all the withdrawl symptoms, even got rid of my cravings with benzos (and this was from a massive 200-300mg roxi snorting addiction).... but the ammount of benzos it took to make me not desire any oc was more than I was prescribed. I would run out about 1 1/2 weeks early almost every month... and then of course, I would seek out more OC.
yes, benzos help A LOT, with anxiety and cravings... but I don't know about neurontin. problem is you need more than just the benzos usually. Mabye if your addiction isn't as bad, you can get by.... but I still think if you mention opiates, addiction or any opiod (suboxone), most doctores wouldn't give any benzos. Also, you said when you stop your body is extremely uncomfortable and you can't tolerate it...... With most opiates The first 3-5 days of detox ... that first week you will not be able to go anywhere, you will want warm baths to stop hot/cold flashes and shaking... you won't be able to eat most likely, possible not be able to hold down fluids... its like the worst flue symptoms plus a few others to make you the sickest thing ever....
However, with suboxone, it is made so you can go through the mildest withdrawls possible thanks to the way it works, have most of your brain chemestry back to normal right away... It will take a while to taper down from that dose, but its NOT hard, just takes time... just don't be afraid to slow down and stop at a dose if you feel craving coming back...
I'll explain how you taper off... (and yes, some klonopin will help a TON, it isn't as sudden and 'knock you on your ass' like xanax... don't make me as tired... its more calm, and lasts much longer.... perfect for handling the anxiety from coming off opiods)

psychotic
06-10-2008, 14:55
So you were taking 32-40mg's recreationally?8o

So, if you're detoxing from suboxone means you haven't dosed in 2-3 days?
You won't be able to quit that much cold turkey,
drop your daily dose to
16mg's for 2days
12mg's for 2 days
8mg's for 3 days
6mg's for 3 days
4mg's for 4 days
3mg's for 4 days
2.5mg's for 4 days
(stuck ;_;)

(kind of stuck, i've read abit about successful taper schedules and some have days where you don't dose, the longest/hardest part will be dropping from 4mg's to freedom, input greatly appreciated mods and others)

From being on sub for almost 3 years, and talking to several suboxone physicians about how they get you off it without any withdrawal...
It depends a lot on the person... for example, my roommate feels horrible trying to lower his by half a pill.... I dropped my dose an entire pill no problem... BUT the key is to find what you can handle.. The 'wait until you feel like crap' method is not what you want to use... every other day is part of it, but thats because of the long half life, you don't want lows and spikes ...

Example 1: you're having a hard time dropping large ammount at a time.
Starting dose: 32mg/day (3 tabs)
week 1 : alternate days 22-24mg (2.75 tabs one day, 2.5 tabs next day)
week 2 : same, 20-22mg (2.5 tabs one day, 2.25 tabs next day)
week 3 : same, 18-20 (2 tabs, then 2.25 tabs)
follow this every other day routine until you get down to 1/2 one day, 1/4 next day
week 10: alternating days, 4mg-2mg (half tab one day, quarter tab next day)
**NOW... there is a reason they make the 2mg tabs**
Rarely people use them, because you can break the 8 mg tabs into 1/4s pretty easy...... BUT for a detox without withdrawl...THIS is where they come into play... (N2 = 2mg tabs
week 11: alternating days, 2mg - 1.5mg (one N2, 3/4 N2)
week 12: alternating days, 1.5mg - 1mg (3/4 N2, 1/2 N2)
week 13: alternating days, 1 mg - .5mg (1/2 N2, 1/4 N2)
week 14: NO MORE ALTERNATING, .5mg each day (1/4 N2)
Week 15: alternating days, .5mg - 0mg (1/4 N2, nothing)
(You may want to repeat week 15 one more time with smaller pieces than 1/4)

With this method or a combination of the ones below

[actually the ones below might be easier to understand...]

, you should have almost NO withdrawl, and little to no discomfort.... especially because when you ween down to the smaller, 2mg tab, which is the most important part.... you are only dropping the dose each time by 1/4 of what you were dropping before.


Method 1
(number of N8, 8mg tablets taken - 7 day week)
week 1: 2.75, 2.75, 2.75, 2.75, 2.75, 2.75, 2.75
week 2: 2.5 , 2.75, 2.5 , 2.75, 2.5 , 2.75, 2.5
week 3: 2.5 , 2.5 , 2.5 , 2.5 , 2.5 , 2.5 , 2.5

and continue this by alternating one week, and doing the lower steady dose every other week.

Or, if you fee like you need to get off faster (and don't force yourself, or cravings can easily come back and ruin progress) then you can easily take the first method and just try to cut back 1/2 instead of just 1/4:

Method 2
(number of N8, 8mg tablets taken - 7 day week)
week 1: 2.5 , 2.0 , 2.5 , 2.0 , 2.5 , 2.0 , 2.5
week 2: 2.0 , 1.5 , 2.0 , 1.5 , 2.0 , 1.5 , 2.0
week 3: 1.5 , 1.0 , 1.5 , 1.0 , 1.5 , 1.0 , 1.0

now...

Method 1 OR 2
ONCE YOU REACH .5 mg (1/4 of an N8, 8mg tab)
try to get N2, or 2 mg tabs if possible.
if not, cut the N8 tabs into quarters, and try as best you can to cut those quarters into 4 equal pieces.

Final weeks
(number of N2, 2mg tablets taken - 7 day week)

week 1: 1 , 0.75 , 1 , 0.75 , 1 , 0.75 , 1
week 3: 0.75 , 0.5 , 0.75 , 0.5 , 0.75 , 0.5 , 0.75
week 4: 0.5 , 0.5 , 0.5 , 0.5 , 0.5 , 0.5 , 0.5
week 5: 0.25 , 0.5 , 0.25 , 0.5 , 0.25 , 0.5 , 0.25
week 6: 0.25 , 0.25 , 0.25 , 0.25 , 0.25 , 0.25 , 0.25
week 7: 0.25 , none, 0.25 , none, 0.25 , none, 0.25

Optional: repeat week 7 in the 'Final weeks' one more time, with smaller pieces than 1/4 of an N2 tab

The ammount you can cut back each dosage drops varies person to person. Also, the ammount of time needed in each step may vary... Week 1 and 2 for one person may actually take 4 weeks total, 2 weeks on each pattern.

Even substituting a few days for a 'week' or changing a 'week' to 3, and even making the drop in dosage more or less depending the ammount of dose change you can handle.
STILL,
For the best change of success, as well as the best chance of minimizing, or eliminating any withdrawal, I strongly suggest the alternating method, to allow your body to adjust to the change slowly over some time. Preferably method 1, as you alternate to drop, and then keep the lower dose for a week before alternating again, but that does take more time... With either of the methods, I strongly recommend following the 'Final weeks'. This is an essential part in which your endorphines and receptors can regain their prior functioning.

Along with a tapering plan, excersize and other activities that release endorphines, the body's natural opiate, will help A TON by increasing endorphine production levels back to normal and encouraging receptor sites.

Again, sorry about the length, and sorry if any of it was off topic :\ ...

Although I do hope it can help someone!!!
it did take me a lot longer than I thought to answer questions and share the knowledge I have about this subject!

I am NOT an expect in these fields, however I do know much about the topic. Those of you who do know much more, feel free to correct anything that seems to be misleading or misinforming.

Good luck to all you trying to use suboxone to save your life, and even to those of you who just wanna get high to get by... I can feel for you both <3

Mr Blonde
06-10-2008, 15:03
Welcome to BL, and wow, that's probably one of the longest things I've ever seen on here. ;)

Thanks for the posts, you seem to know a fair bit about sub and your contribution is most welcome.

Subreflex
06-10-2008, 22:34
I was waiting for a post like psychotic's to come up. I bow down.

Great info, must digest. :)

triiper
06-10-2008, 22:40
ok all i have is suboxone. do you feel iv more?

Subreflex
06-10-2008, 22:49
ok all i have is suboxone. do you feel iv more?


*face palm* Don't shoot suboxone. Plug it or snort it (recreationally).

The fillers AND citric acid along with the naxolone will be a painful and most likely unrewarding experience.

psychotic
06-10-2008, 23:33
ok all i have is suboxone. do you feel iv more?
Read the other posts....
Suboxone has naloxone in it, the naloxone is there so that you cannot INJECT the suboxone. just let it dissolve under your tongue..... or stick it up your ass if you want a few more % bio-availability.... but since it has a ceiling on the effects of the drug, you can dissolve 4 under your tongue and thats probably the most you'll get..

if you want to try and get more of a buzz (which you might never get one if you have a previous opiate tolerance)... then read the reply I made in this post about opiate potentiators / how to overcome the suboxone block.

Extra FYI, a prior friend who was addicted to OC and tar H SWORE that he got somewhat of a buzz by snorting an entire suboxone. Personally, I think he is full of crap 8) and it could also be placebo effect... :\

kinda like when I get ready to snort a line of OC, just knowing I'm about to get it, any headache I have will go away before doing any of the drug.



And thanks to everyone who appriciated the posts... it was actually one single post that I had to cut down, lol... I dunno why I wrote so much, just been through a lot of shit :X , done suboxone for a long time, and had a doctor that was unusually curious about helping explain the drug as well as the effects I had and what I had researched
(like the dreams about finding pills, he thought was really interesting cause it showed that you can have subconcious cravings against your will... and when I relapsed, he would always want to know how long it was after I took suboxone, and how much of an effect it made)
I thought I might get trashed for posting something so long, but you guys are great.. I've been browsing the forums silently for a little longer than a year, and so it was time to give back. I remember an especially important post about why you should never 'cook' opiates before shooting them... I never shot up, but many of my friends did... And I was able to tell them that by heating it up they were only dissolving filler and other things they didn't want in their blood. They knew that opiates had a cold water extraction method, but had never though of it when it came to shooting the pills.... In there heads, they wanted to get everything dissolved, cause if something was left over, they felt it was possible wasted OC, and I can understand that line of thought.

I was glad to tell them what they were really leaving behind were things they never wanted to try and dissolve at all.... I mean, some of the potential complications from having that filler in your blood are serious blockages in tiny veins, and people have died from having them in their brain, lungs, heart...

Basically, I love how this forum is about CORRECT information, and plenty of people about risk REDUCTION.
Still a few that give comments like "just don't do it at all..." which helps nothing, but thats ok, its an opinion.

Some of the questions that come up on the forum seem extremely ignorant and obviously dangerous to many of us, and by speaking up about the facts, this forum has definately saved many from going to the ER and most likely saved lives

Subreflex
06-10-2008, 23:46
Bupe dosen't seem to scale the same way as other common opioids. Usually, when looking for the euphoria empathy and body buzz stick with a small(er) dose. If you want to melt into a damn chair on cloud 9 take a moderately recreational dose.

The recreational dosing of suboxone are, by opinion, all across the board unfortunately.

chrisinabox
07-10-2008, 01:29
Read the other posts....
Suboxone has naloxone in it, the naloxone is there so that you cannot INJECT the suboxone. just let it dissolve under your tongue..... or stick it up your ass if you want a few more % bio-availability.... but since it has a ceiling on the effects of the drug, you can dissolve 4 under your tongue and thats probably the most you'll get..

if you want to try and get more of a buzz (which you might never get one if you have a previous opiate tolerance)... then read the reply I made in this post about opiate potentiators / how to overcome the suboxone block.

Extra FYI, a prior friend who was addicted to OC and tar H SWORE that he got somewhat of a buzz by snorting an entire suboxone. Personally, I think he is full of crap 8) and it could also be placebo effect... :\

kinda like when I get ready to snort a line of OC, just knowing I'm about to get it, any headache I have will go away before doing any of the drug.



And thanks to everyone who appriciated the posts... it was actually one single post that I had to cut down, lol... I dunno why I wrote so much, just been through a lot of shit :X , done suboxone for a long time, and had a doctor that was unusually curious about helping explain the drug as well as the effects I had and what I had researched
(like the dreams about finding pills, he thought was really interesting cause it showed that you can have subconcious cravings against your will... and when I relapsed, he would always want to know how long it was after I took suboxone, and how much of an effect it made)
I thought I might get trashed for posting something so long, but you guys are great.. I've been browsing the forums silently for a little longer than a year, and so it was time to give back. I remember an especially important post about why you should never 'cook' opiates before shooting them... I never shot up, but many of my friends did... And I was able to tell them that by heating it up they were only dissolving filler and other things they didn't want in their blood. They knew that opiates had a cold water extraction method, but had never though of it when it came to shooting the pills.... In there heads, they wanted to get everything dissolved, cause if something was left over, they felt it was possible wasted OC, and I can understand that line of thought.

I was glad to tell them what they were really leaving behind were things they never wanted to try and dissolve at all.... I mean, some of the potential complications from having that filler in your blood are serious blockages in tiny veins, and people have died from having them in their brain, lungs, heart...

Basically, I love how this forum is about CORRECT information, and plenty of people about risk REDUCTION.
Still a few that give comments like "just don't do it at all..." which helps nothing, but thats ok, its an opinion.

Some of the questions that come up on the forum seem extremely ignorant and obviously dangerous to many of us, and by speaking up about the facts, this forum has definately saved many from going to the ER and most likely saved lives


psychotic, u actually CAN inject suboxone. just not while on another opiate. u won't automatically go into precipitated withdrawal. the naloxone in suboxone pills is actually just about inactive b/c the buphrenorphine in suboxone overpowers everything the naloxone does. bupe has a higher binding affinity for the opiate receptors so it overpowers the naloxone everytime. and its actually not even the naloxone that makes ppl go into precipitated w/d while on another opiate, its the bupe itself knocking the other opiate off the receptors. the only reason they put naloxone in sub is to scare ppl away from abusing it. not to discredit anything u said, just thought i would point this out.

johanneschimpo
07-10-2008, 01:32
Basically, I love how this forum is about CORRECT information
I do too. I'd love to keep it that way. Perhaps you should do some fact checking in some of your posts. Other than that, welcome to BL.

Mr Blonde
07-10-2008, 01:35
^^ Chrisinabox: When you inject it, the naloxone and buprenorphine will briefly compete for the receptors they want to bind to. Bupe wins, but it takes a little bit to do so.

triiper
07-10-2008, 04:01
ok well i iv'd 4mg and i can say i definitely felt it. the only reason i did it is cause there was no talc in it (which is the most important reason pills are bad to iv). it was pretty nice honestly. i haven't done opiates in a few days too so i guess my tolerance was low, but i definitely have a nice long lasting opiate high. only a couple complications... first is the injection site became swollen. i thought i missed the shot but it didn't bubble or anything and someone experienced said it wasn't a missed shot. its several hours later and its still pretty swollen. can anyone say anything about this? and something else : at some point i was no longer able to swallow solids. i had no problem with liquids, but when i swallowed food, it would just stay at the top of my throat. can anyone say anything about this? cause this worried me a lot..... has this happened to anyone else?

triiper
07-10-2008, 06:15
ok i wanna bump this and add that the bupe also has a higher affinity so i figured the nalexone wouldn't do anything. there wasn't a rush tho... it came on pretty slow. but its likes +9 hours and im still feeling as good as the second i came up

psychotic
07-10-2008, 06:32
I do too. I'd love to keep it that way. Perhaps you should do some fact checking in some of your posts. Other than that, welcome to BL.

"I am NOT an expect in these fields, however I do know much about the topic. Those of you who do know much more, feel free to correct anything that seems to be misleading or misinforming"

I was sharing information, some of which I had heard from doctors, others through my own research, and some based on my own experiences. doesn't mean that the doctor was correct.

The way I understood it is that naloxone has poor bioavailability sublingually, so you mainly get bup. however injecting, you bypass that and inject the naloxone in full as well....
I believe you that it is possible if you have done it... just hard to imagine because I know so many people that are on suboxone that have tried to abuse it all the time...
Also, isn't it the bup, not the naloxone, that causes precipitated withdrawl? The previous opiate and the buprenorphine in a sense 'fighting' over receptor sites. This is what I understand from the suboxone literature...
I guess my question is... if it DOESN'T prevent injecting, then what IS the naloxone useful for in the formulation of suboxone?

triiper
07-10-2008, 06:33
oh yeah forgot to add had a pitcher of beer and 3 joints

Mr Blonde
07-10-2008, 06:45
Also, isn't it the bup, not the naloxone, that causes precipitated withdrawl? The previous opiate and the buprenorphine in a sense 'fighting' over receptor sites. This is what I understand from the suboxone literature...

The bupe plain kicks the other opioids off the receptor, it has a much higher affinity. The naltrexone may be why IV sub takes a while to come on, I don't know.

triiper
07-10-2008, 08:04
at some point i was no longer able to swallow solids. i had no problem with liquids, but when i swallowed food, it would just stay at the top of my throat. can anyone say anything about this? cause this worried me a lot..... has this happened to anyone else?

has this ever happened to anyone? its a lot better now, but seriously, what the fuck was that?

chrisinabox
07-10-2008, 15:20
"I am NOT an expect in these fields, however I do know much about the topic. Those of you who do know much more, feel free to correct anything that seems to be misleading or misinforming"

I was sharing information, some of which I had heard from doctors, others through my own research, and some based on my own experiences. doesn't mean that the doctor was correct.

The way I understood it is that naloxone has poor bioavailability sublingually, so you mainly get bup. however injecting, you bypass that and inject the naloxone in full as well....
I believe you that it is possible if you have done it... just hard to imagine because I know so many people that are on suboxone that have tried to abuse it all the time...
Also, isn't it the bup, not the naloxone, that causes precipitated withdrawl? The previous opiate and the buprenorphine in a sense 'fighting' over receptor sites. This is what I understand from the suboxone literature...
I guess my question is... if it DOESN'T prevent injecting, then what IS the naloxone useful for in the formulation of suboxone?


if a non-opiate tolerant person shoots suboxone, they will get a "high" from the buprenorphine itself. if a opiate tolerant person shoots suboxone while another opiate is "active" in their system, they will go into precipitated w/d. if they wait long enough for the previous opiate to leave the receptors, they will be fine.
and you were right about naloxone having a much better bioavailability when injected but the bupe still wins everytime.
and yes, the bupe is what causes the precipitated w/d
basically, i don't think there is much the naloxone is useful for in suboxone. i think the ppl who made it put it in there to "scare" ppl away from abusing it but i'm not sure if they knew the bupe was actually gonna overpower the naloxone anyways. mostly just a scare tactic. just like now, i read that companies that make oxycodone are thinking of making an "abuse resistant" form of oxycontin with naloxone in it. in this case, i believe the naloxone would win. not 100% sure tho.

triiper
08-10-2008, 02:17
this stuff is good to get high on, no doubt. shot 4mg again today and its like +12 hours and im still high. euphoria ain't as much as oc obviously, but theres still some, and the length more than compensates. don't think it would happen without all the weed, but w/e

Subreflex
08-10-2008, 03:00
this stuff is good to get high on, no doubt. shot 4mg again today and its like +12 hours and im still high. euphoria ain't as much as oc obviously, but theres still some, and the length more than compensates. don't think it would happen without all the weed, but w/e


You can smoke weed on that shit? *puke*

triiper
08-10-2008, 03:36
haha ya i also had a pitcher of beer.