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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Impure MDMA Powder

zomg

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
77
There is some MDMA powder going around at the moment that has been cut with another drug. It is suspected that the powder is cut with Meth.

Some people are saying that it wouldn't be cut with Meth because Meth is more expensive than MDMA so it is pointless. That doesn't explain why pills have Meth in them.

My question is. Would it make 'sense' to cut Meth with MDMA powder?

Thanks
 
To an MDxx purist like myself, cutting with meth makes no sense. But maybe it does to those that solely want to profit (i.e. reduce the amount of MDxx needed for an "effect" by substituting small amounts of meth)

Buy a reagent kit and test it. That'll answer more questions than any speculation made in this thread.
 
Last edited:
peaked said:
To an MDxx purist like myself, cutting with meth makes no sense. But maybe it does to those that solely want to profit (i.e. reduce the amount of MDxx needed for an "effect" by substituting small amounts of meth)

Buy a reagent kit and test it. That'll answer more questions than any speculation made in this thread.

Oh yeah I definitely agree with getting a reagent tester. My question isn't specifically about the powder I spoke about, I meant generally speaking would there be any logic in cutting MDMA with Meth.
 
Meth may be more expensive by weight but is a lot more potent by weight, if I were making the mix myself I'd put 5 parts MDMA to 1 part meth. But if I were buying MDMA powder I would prefer it to be cut with inactives, but its just economics - mix in a bit of meth and you can get away with a lot more cutting.
 
Is it also easier to get the precursors for meth?

Very much so. Meth can be made by almost anyone, although it's dangerous if you aren't a chemist with proper glassware. The materials are easily available OTC and in hardware stores, and the actual reacting process isn't too difficult.

MDMA, on the other hand, is a much more complicated process requiring substances that would be both difficult to acquire and would probably involve you needing a license/being put on a list of people who have bought it. If you're resourceful, I've heard it can be done using more readily available chemicals but it takes a lot of intermediary steps and would hardly be worth the cost and time involved.

My question is. Would it make 'sense' to cut Meth with MDMA powder?

I assume you mean, does it make sense to cut MDMA with meth. A few people I know prefer a bit of speed with their MDMA, and the first pill I ever had was a potent mix of the two. It gave me a lot more energy then just MDMA, felt really clean and euphoric and really gave the come-up a boost.
 
clear / very slightly off white crystals size of a girls pinky nail coupled with an explosive realtime colorshift to black when subjected to both M&M reagents is usually a promising indication of that there might just perhaps happen to be good MDMA. 10-15g crystals are nice, not seen often.
 
MDMA, on the other hand, is a much more complicated process requiring substances that would be both difficult to acquire and would probably involve you needing a license/being put on a list of people who have bought it. If you're resourceful, I've heard it can be done using more readily available chemicals but it takes a lot of intermediary steps and would hardly be worth the cost and time involved.

Not necessarily. Sure there are more steps involved, and some chemicals may need to be synthesized from OTC chems, but if you know where to look, everything required can be obtained OTC, and generally speaking, buying these chemicals would attract less attention than someone looking for the standard reduction chems used for pseudo-->meth. The one chemical which may be difficult to obtain is the starting material, but that's abundantly available from nature - particularly on the East Coast of Aus, albeit a somewhat tricky process to isolate. But it can be done, that I can assure, and considering the black market price, I'd wager someone is still cashing in on the demand.
 
phase_dancer said:
Not necessarily. Sure there are more steps involved, and some chemicals may need to be synthesized from OTC chems, but if you know where to look, everything required can be obtained OTC, and generally speaking, buying these chemicals would attract less attention than someone looking for the standard reduction chems used for pseudo-->meth. The one chemical which may be difficult to obtain is the starting material, but that's abundantly available from nature - particularly on the East Coast of Aus, albeit a somewhat tricky process to isolate. But it can be done, that I can assure, and considering the black market price, I'd wager someone is still cashing in on the demand.

The starting material you speak of can actually be synthed from completely OTC chems, though the process is rather involved.
 
Not necessarily. Sure there are more steps involved, and some chemicals may need to be synthesized from OTC chems, but if you know where to look, everything required can be obtained OTC, and generally speaking, buying these chemicals would attract less attention than someone looking for the standard reduction chems used for pseudo-->meth. The one chemical which may be difficult to obtain is the starting material, but that's abundantly available from nature - particularly on the East Coast of Aus, albeit a somewhat tricky process to isolate. But it can be done, that I can assure, and considering the black market price, I'd wager someone is still cashing in on the demand.

The starting material you speak of can actually be synthed from completely OTC chems, though the process is rather involved.

That 'starting' chemical is, I assume, the certain essential oil which will remain nameless.

As you said, phase dancer, there probably is someone out there making MDMA with what's available, but to do so completely OTC and with natural supplies would be quite difficult as compared to using proper chemicals and glassware. I'd be very interested in meeting someone who could actually synth it from completely OTC and natural sources, not necessarily just to get a source of MDMA, but to talk to them about their chemical process and experience.
 
A course structured university project I did some years ago involved determining the amount of starting material present in a local non-indigenous species, isolating it, preparing the ketone on a micro scale via an OTC method (but using LR grade chemicals), and identifying impurities using NMR. From this route, the major side reaction impurity was the benzaldehyde, which resulted from intentional over-oxidation of the propylene benzene.

Mr Blonde said:
I'd be very interested in meeting someone who could actually synth it from completely OTC and natural sources, not necessarily just to get a source of MDMA, but to talk to them about their chemical process and experience.

As I'm principly against the non-authorised manufacture of any illicit or pseudo-illicit drug, I'm not prepared to discuss these procedures in greater detail. If you're interested for purely academic reasons, nearly all the info is available online. If you want a more through understanding of the principles and practices involved, then two years of uni chemistry will mean you'll be able to understand every process occuring, both theoretically and practically, because all steps in a typical synthesis will be easily related to other lab experiments done within such a course.

Mr White said:
The starting material you speak of can actually be synthed from completely OTC chems, though the process is rather involved.

I assume what Mr White is referring to is methylenation of another, commonly available allylbenzene. Any methods for doing this that I know of are either; a) not OTC, i.e. requiring chemicals not used in OTC products or only available in forms that can't be realistically isolated, or b) very low yielding and/or prone to polymerisation following the intitial step of demethylation. However, in saying that, I've certainly not kept up to date with the latest clandestine techniques so it might very well be that such hurdles have been overcome.

Mr Blonde said:
As you said, phase dancer, there probably is someone out there making MDMA with what's available, but to do so completely OTC and with natural supplies would be quite difficult as compared to using proper chemicals and glassware

There's no doubt that some routes require less steps or solvents etc but I believe the method I explored in my project could easily be done at a commercial or semi commercial scale. It has an added 'benefit' over many other methods because it limits the use of highly toxic chemicals - not altogether, but certainly more so than some routes - and appears to have fewer nasty side reaction products than most other methods e.g those employing the halo routes or some processes using oxidative catalysts (the major side reaction product I identified is of relatively low toxicity and is used extensively in the flavour and fragrance industry).

However, IMO, OTC products are completely unsuitable for use in synthesizing substances intended for human consumption. The quality of reagents is far from optimum, and impurities (and amounts present) could well vary from one supplier to the next. However, regardless of the quality of reagents, a major health concern with any illicit production of MDMA is in the final step of reductive amination. If any of the allyl starting material or its propylene isomer are present during this stage, these will be reduced but not aminated, and a very toxic, probably carcinogenic, chemical will result i.e. 1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-propylbenzene. While its possible to remove this, one wonders how much time the typical crook-cook would spend on it, as some product will always be lost with any purification. The often mentioned sassy or aniseed [sic] odour of pills, which is frequently interpreted to mean a "good" pill, should in fact be seen as a warning that the starting material may have been present during the (RA) step.

While MDMA should be considered potentially dangerous and is a neurotoxin (by at least 4 definitions), I have greater concerns regarding potential impurities, and the possible long term effects these might have on the liver and other organs, particularly if prolonged consumption occurs. At present, we have no way of knowing what some of these impurities may cause in the long term.

Like any other synthesized substance, whether or not a sample of MDMA will be pure or not depends on several things, not least the skill of the chemist, available resources, purity of reagents and reactants, cleanliness of the environment, and good lab practice, e.g. avoiding contamination from dirty glassware.
 
Pills died when they started being synthed here. Pressed here was fine. But <70% MDMA purity can be dangerous but seem more munted. Try 97% and tell me its not a completely different drug.
 
Pills died when they started being synthed here. Pressed here was fine. But <70% MDMA purity can be dangerous but seem more munted. Try 97% and tell me its not a completely different drug.

Uh, well it depends on what's making up that other 3-30% doesn't it?
 
Look up common MDMA impurities.. Most chemicals from different synthsn are untested on any animals but OBVIOUSLY have effect when digested
 
If the mdma has a slightly green tinge to it, you may wanna reply / PM me and ill tell you what it may be for harm minimisation purposes.
 
If the mdma has a slightly green tinge to it, you may wanna reply / PM me and ill tell you what it may be for harm minimisation purposes.

Instead of disappearing 16 days after registering, why not tell us here, publicly, on a harm reduction board, where such info can have some impact? As someone actively involved in outreach HR, if an OTC chemical impurity or some sloppy lab technique is responsible for an impurity in MDMA powder, then I'd really like to know what it is.

Look up common MDMA impurities.. Most chemicals from different synthsn are untested on any animals but OBVIOUSLY have effect when digested


Most if not all chemicals used in any syntheses have received some toxicity profiling. An MSDS exists for practically all chemicals used in the lab, which should be referred to before first using a substance. That's standard lab practice. Major impurities with a clandestine drug like MDMA are often intermediates of the synthesis. All chems used a typical MDMA synth (pure chems, not OTC products), and the intermediates formed via these routes have had some toxicological evaluation.

In regards to side reaction impurities, if you look at some of the Forensic journal articles which profile different syntheses, then do a search for those impurities, you'll find the toxicity for many have at least been partially evaluated for acute exposure. However, these impurities may not be completely representative of those produced using less than pure starting materials (OTC chems). This is where things become very cloudy.

Whether or not these typical impurities have a noticeable effect on the pharmacology of MDMA, is, in many cases also difficult to accurately determine without appropriate studies being done. Obviously, some psychoactive impurities could well be expected to alter the experience, but others may work in a more subtle way, causing changes in metabolism and even absorption and elimination of the drug. Some impurities are toxic, there's no doubt about that, and others in combination may be toxic, but that doesn't mean any and all possible impurities from a synthesis will alter the perceived pharmacological effects of MDMA.


Pills died when they started being synthed here.

MDMA has been produced locally for many years. I'm not saying it supplied the whole market, but the large MDP2P bust a couple of years ago certainly indicated that a good portion of the local market was then being catered for by a local organisation.

I'm not denying that large scale operations such as that busted in Indonesia some years ago were in all likelihood producing a relatively high quality product, however, without seeing respective analytical data there's no reason to believe that product purity would be that much better with a big OS operation than with a smaller, well run and adequately resourced local operation. Some of the lab busts in Aus have reported sophisticated labs - I believe even gas chromatographs have been found in labs in Aus and NZ.

MDMA lab busts may have been rare 8-10 years ago, but a lot of things affected that, not least the relatively limited resources available to LE at the time and the ease by which chemicals could be purchased back then. Don't forget, the required essential oil was still accessible OTC in 2000. Around that time, I was told by a senior forensics officer that it was then available in quantity from some pet shops (for delousing animals).

After seeing it on the shelf in shops that sold essential oils, I rang the local distributor to ask how they were able to legally sell it. I was told they couldn't sell larger than 100mL bottles without notifying authorities, but the lady went on to say they could sell as many 100mL bottles as the customer wanted without notifying anyone. There's a bit more to this story, which I followed up within the University project mentioned above. This involved the low percentage of the allyl benzene found to be present in the oil. From discussions with lecturers it was concluded the remaining 60-70% had probably been distilled off, and the oil topped up with terpenes to keep the books "straight". The valuable allyl benzene could then be diverted to the illicit market where it would have fetched big money. This made sense, and perhaps explains why the company disappeared some 6 months later :\

"Pills died", as Billabongor2 puts it, when various interstate and federal LE departments began cooperating better and the ACC and other bodies focused on improving intelligence gathering, expanding the chemical industry code of practice and increasing border security. Ion mobility scanning became commonplace, departments got additional staff, and greater numbers of undercover officers infiltrated the scene.

As a result, MDMA became somewhat less easy to get into the country and more difficult to produce locally. This resulted in a) the price holding steady, and even increasing in some areas b) the amount present in tablets becoming generally less and c) increases in novel substitutes and adulterants (other than speed & ketamine and the odd PEA). Let's face it, unless demand drops, there's more incentive for the crooks to supply low MDMA content pills, and/or be more inclined to substitute with piperazines, pharmaceuticals etc. So, while a typical pill may cost less today than back in 2000, if 3 pills are required to do the same job, then who's the better off?

None of this should be surprising considering the effectiveness of improved supply reduction together with a local illicit market where demand remains high. From a HR perspective, what's frustrating is that LE and government agencies prioritise prohibition while ignoring the inevitable increased risks to drug users and their families. The many warnings – some of which came from BLers, Doctors and the “Drug Industry Elite” <3 that term :) – have been ignored, despite these points being brought to the attention of authorities on numerous occasions i.e. if demand was not concurrently reduced with supply, there would be added incentive for crooks to produce lower quality (less safe) , substituted or adulterated products.

Increasing maximum sentences probably deters few dedicated crooks and probably doesn't do much to deter new one's entering the market either- what's another 5 years when you're already risking 15-20? The profits are huge, and well syndicated networks are still relatively safe. Let's not also forget the technology around to counter intelligence gathering. It's widely available, inexpensive, and from reports, also very effective. So, if manufacturing syndicates have no personal or traceable contact with traffickers, and traffickers have no personal or traceable contact with street dealers, how does LE catch the big bosses? Let's not also forget the relative risks associated with local production compared to importing. Providing that the necessary resources can be obtained locally via inconspicuous means, there's relatively little chance of being caught.
 
I don't think any MDMA powder would be very pure in Australia I'm sure a few if not one at least has stepped on it with either meth, caffeine or something horrible just so that they can profit better.

You can always do a simple acetone wash to get it out... Oh except the meth will still be in it whoops. Is their a simple way to separate the meth from MDMA???
 
I don't think any MDMA powder would be very pure in Australia I'm sure a few if not one at least has stepped on it with either meth, caffeine or something horrible just so that they can profit better.

The same could be said for any powdered drug. Whether it is made in Aus or OS has little to do with it. How many hands it goes through is probably more of an issue with purity

You can always do a simple acetone wash to get it out... Oh except the meth will still be in it whoops. Is their a simple way to separate the meth from MDMA???

This question comes up from time to time. In short, not really. Chromatography could be used but it's not something done with everyday items.
 
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