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MeddieFrac
02-09-2010, 01:11
Opanas make me sick as hell, and I don't know exactly why. I usually just crush them up and then snort 'em, with the outer layer of ER and everything. Perhaps this is why? But the fucking outer layer is so damn hard to get off!

Just snorted some roxies tho, and they never make me sick unless I eat too many :)

thuggin N buggin
02-09-2010, 02:04
Personally I had a bad experience with opana I had been using OC recreationally here and there but still was able to take more than a beginners dosage (nasally that is). However, when I tried opana (it may have been because i was also drinking at the time) I immediately began sweating and itching like an overdose after railing barely half a 30 ER. It also had me blowing gel out of my nose for days. My suggestion is bang it for sure but start VERY small!

muvolution
02-09-2010, 02:22
Personally I had a bad experience with opana I had been using OC recreationally here and there but still was able to take more than a beginners dosage (nasally that is). However, when I tried opana (it may have been because i was also drinking at the time) I immediately began sweating and itching like an overdose after railing barely half a 30 ER. It also had me blowing gel out of my nose for days. My suggestion is bang it for sure but start VERY small!

ok dude, you blew 15mg, thats equivalent to 150mg of morphine with 50% bioavailablilty, you got 75mg of morphine equivalent instantly, so that''s much like doing an oxy 80 all at once.

thefoot
02-09-2010, 02:25
^^I've never had that problem, I do it every once in a while

homeydontplaythat
02-09-2010, 20:39
this stuff is better than heroin IMO. its just redonkulous. a 40mg pill IV is like a half g of the purest raw heroin. enough to kill you for sure. the rush is better than heroin and the legs are better than heroin.

IV is the only way to go with oxymorphone. goes for hydromorphone as well. i have never experienced such a profound rush and glow as with slamming opana.

ps, getting the pill prepped for IV solution is easy. the methods are listed all over the place. for like 35 bucks you can get the equivelant of like 4 KILLER bags of heroin. like the best D you have ever had. totally worth it.

jamesBrown
02-09-2010, 20:45
this stuff is better than heroin IMO. its just redonkulous. a 40mg pill IV is like a half g of the purest raw heroin. enough to kill you for sure. the rush is better than heroin and the legs are better than heroin.

IV is the only way to go with oxymorphone. goes for hydromorphone as well. i have never experienced such a profound rush and glow as with slamming opana.

ps, getting the pill prepped for IV solution is easy. the methods are listed all over the place. for like 35 bucks you can get the equivelant of like 4 KILLER bags of heroin. like the best D you have ever had. totally worth it.


Actually ive found(and alot of other people as wel, even here on BL) that dilaudid doesnt have legs at all.....meaning the high doesnt last for a long time at all. And for sure it doesnt last nearly as long as heroin or oxy.

The rush MIGHT be better than heroin but that simply depends n the quality of heroin your talking about.....the average grade, cut up heroin, probably doesnt have quite as good as a high as dilaudid, but the heroin I get alot of the time, especially the tar...is waaaaay better than a shot of dilaudid....FOR SURE.

homeydontplaythat
02-09-2010, 21:09
no, i was talking about OXYmorphone. i said hydromorphone and oxymorphone are only good IV.

shadyMyster
02-09-2010, 21:10
ok dude, you blew 15mg, thats equivalent to 150mg of morphine with 50% bioavailablilty, you got 75mg of morphine equivalent instantly, so that''s much like doing an oxy 80 all at once.

Incorrect. 15 mg? Equivalent to a 50% bioavailability (assuming he potentiated this affect by consuming highly lipid products) So, that would be 7.5mg, x let's say 6, or in this case, and that would be 45mg in morphine equivalent...NOT 150MG....your numbers are wayyy off. Standard clinical conversions are using a .333 conversion, or about 10mg oxymorphone is equivalent to 30mg morphine.

With these conversions, one must remember that if you are lucky, half of that OP will be converted, and about 25% of the morphine dose. So that ends up being an oral rate of 5mg op = 22.5 m, or ABOUT 4.5X (OP Oral is about 4.5x the strength of Oral morphine.)

jamesBrown
02-09-2010, 21:19
Incorrect. 15 mg? Equivalent to a 50% bioavailability (assuming he potentiated this affect by consuming highly lipid products) So, that would be 7.5mg, x let's say 6, or in this case, and that would be 45mg in morphine equivalent...NOT 150MG....your numbers are wayyy off. Standard clinical conversions are using a .333 conversion, or about 10mg oxymorphone is equivalent to 30mg morphine.

With these conversions, one must remember that if you are lucky, half of that OP will be converted, and about 25% of the morphine dose. So that ends up being an oral rate of 5mg op = 22.5 m, or ABOUT 4.5X (OP Oral is about 4.5x the strength of Oral morphine.)

Im not sure exactly where you went wrong in your math...but im almost positive that oxymorphone is WAAAY more potent than you are giving it credit for. 15 mg's of oxymorphone is equivelant to alot more than just 45 mg's of morphine....i can guarantee you that.

Hopefully somebody with more experience can help me explain this better but im not the expert as I preffered heroin over pills for the most part, or atleast it was available alot more.

muvolution
02-09-2010, 21:36
No dude, I'm right.
He insuffulated the 15mg of Oxymorphone.
Oxymorphone is 10 times stronger than morphine. Nasally it has a 43% bioavalability, higher if you consume a fatty meal or suspend it in water. So let me lay out the math for you.

15x10= 150 x .43 = 64.5 equivalent analgesic dose of Morphine.
I rounded up assuming he had consumed alcohol or a fatty meal in which case the bio - availability multiplier would be closer to .50, giving me the 75mg number I came up with.

Your numbers are correct, though, for oral doses of oxymorphone.

jamesBrown
02-09-2010, 21:44
No dude, I'm right.
He insuffulated the 15mg of Oxymorphone.
Oxymorphone is 10 times stronger than morphine. Nasally it has a 43% bioavalability, higher if you consume a fatty meal or suspend it in water. So let me lay out the math for you.

15x10= 150 x .43 = 64.5 equivalent analgesic dose of Morphine.
I rounded up assuming he had consumed alcohol or a fatty meal in which case the bio - availability multiplier would be closer to .50, giving me the 75mg number I came up with.

Your numbers are correct, though, for oral doses of oxymorphone.

^^^I agree with this guy...allthogh I took too much temazepam to do the math right now to back it up.

shadyMyster
03-09-2010, 00:42
Not at all. Your numbers are still incorrect. The only way possible is if he IV'ed 15mg of Oxymorphone, does it become 10x as potent...And you said he "blew" which I assume means rail, snort insufflate. Even if he were to slam it, because it's in pill form, there will be lost OP due to filtering and byproduct fillers that interfere...so.... to break it down... you are still wrong.

Look again, plus you want to do the percentage first. That 15mg only 6.45mg will be bioavailable. Then, 6.5 multiplied by let's say 6 to be fair for your case, is still only 39mg. So your case is even less now that you have said 43% bioavailable, which I surmised it to be 50% with lipid intake.

shadyMyster
03-09-2010, 00:58
Morphine
IM/IV/SC=10 mg
PO=30–60 mg#

Oxymorphone
IM/IV/SC=1 mg
PO=10 mg

The only 10-1 ratio is for IV/IM use only, NOT oral or insufflation. Where are you getting 10x potency for snorting....?

muvolution
03-09-2010, 05:37
Morphine
IM/IV/SC=10 mg
PO=30–60 mg#

Oxymorphone
IM/IV/SC=1 mg
PO=10 mg

The only 10-1 ratio is for IV/IM use only, NOT oral or insufflation. Where are you getting 10x potency for snorting....?

ah I see where we are going wrong, you are getting this off analgesic conversion tables.
The molecule itself, once into your bloodstream is 10x the potency of a molecule of morphine in analgesic efficacy. Thus, (because of about 50% BA) he got about 7.5mg into his bloodstream, would equal 75mg of morphine in analgesic efficacy (which doesn't necessarily, but mostly, translates into euphoria).
agree?

muvolution
03-09-2010, 05:39
the 10x potency is just how much stronger it is than morphine.
hydromorphone is like 8x stronger, oxymorphone is like 10x stronger, above that, there's only fentanyl, buprenephrine, and the Bentley compounds.

shadyMyster
03-09-2010, 20:19
No, I still do not agree. Where are you getting 10x potency????? What source is your claim from? There is no we in going wrong, it is not me. My numbers are accurate. And when you say, it mostly translates into Euphoria? I disagree, proportionately I believe oxycodone is much more euphoric at equivalent doses. Oxymorphone is both sedative and euphoric at the same instance, much more euphoric per say than morphine, but less than oxycontin. I'm defining euphoric as a heady, up, speedy high, that put's a smile on your face and gets endorphins flowing. You say "the 10x potency is just how much stronger than it is than morphine" this makes no sense at all, FOR THE LAST TIME, WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS NUMBER, 10X STRONGER THAN MORPHINE. Only in IV/IM is it 10-1 ratio, as I previously have stated. It is more around 4.5-6x the potency of Morphine for insufflation.

shadyMyster
03-09-2010, 20:25
Plus, your theory of analgesic efficacy does not comply with your previous statement, "ah..you are getting them from conversion tables." Then you state that once it's in your blood stream, it equates to 10-1 ratio for ANALGESIC EFFICACY." Which is a complete contradiction on your part. I think you have no clue what you're talking about "dude".

You have no data to back up your statements and claims, which are not correct. The ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY method for which Oxymorphone equates to 10x potency when compared to Morphine, is if they are BOTH INTRAVENOUSLY INJECTED or INTRAMUSCULARLY. When taken Per OS, or orally, or even insufflation, Oxymorphone is about 3-6x more potent, depending on your source and method. Oral = about ( 4.5 if you account for 50% bioavail increase with lipid intake). So, that 7.5mg of Oxymorphone injested does NOT equate to "150 mg morphine, with 75 mg morphine equivalent instantaneously. It equates to about 45mg of morphine, with 50% bioavailable.

muvolution
03-09-2010, 23:01
The molecule has a 10x stronger affinity for your mu receptors. whether ingested, snorted, or banged. you are mixing up your Bio-availability with the potency all around the place.

it has a 10 times stronger affinity for opiate receptors. the Bio-availability is 50% when insuffulated. He did 15mg.

this is like a childrens kindergarten math problem.
Can you solve it?

15/2 = 7.5 x 10 = 75 mg of morphine equivalent.

As far as oxycodone being "better" 10% is metabolized into oxymorphone which has a ~ 10x stronger binding affinity, then the rest becomes noroxycodone and other less active metabolites. I'll take the equivalent of 10mg of Opana in Morphine any day, because that would be 100mg of Morphine.

here, i'll source it for you:
from wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymorphone


Endo withdrew the original Numorphan tablets from the market in 1972 as the result of regulatory and market pressures and other considerations as it was passionately sought, by any means necessary, by some narcotics addicts. Until its removal from the United States market at that point, oxymorphone in the form of Numorphan 10 mg instant-release tablets was one of the most sought-after and well-regarded opioids of the IV drug using community. Because of its low bioavailability, 10% when taken orally, a 10 mg tablet represents 10 times the average IV dose in a single tablet. Known popularly as "blues" or "Nu- Blues" for their light blue color, the tablets contained very few insoluble binders—making them easy to inject—and were extremely potent when used intravenously. "Blues" were also considered to be especially euphoric; comparable to or better than heroin.

shadyMyster
04-09-2010, 00:38
You still have not shown your source. Wikipedia? Ha... Wow, I could only have guessed. First of all, the only thing that remotely represents what you are claiming, is this line from your quote source.

" Because of its low bioavailability, 10% when taken orally, a 10 mg tablet represents 10 times the average IV dose in a single tablet. Known popularly as "blues" or "Nu- Blues" for their light blue color, the tablets contained very few insoluble binders

How do I spell this out for you, step by step, since you need it. 10% is the low bio. One 10mg pill *key word* REPRESENTS /end key word* , and I repeat, represents, 10 times the average IV dose in a single tablet. THIS MEANS THAT THE AVERAGE IV is 10x less than what is needed in pill form. In other words, as I said before, ONLY IV IS IT 10X stronger, In even OTHER WORDS, that 10mg pill taken orally is equal to 1mg IV. NOT MAKING IT 10X stronger...it has absolutely nothing to do with strength in your quote, they simply are stating that one 10mg pill will only let in 1mg of oxymorphone into your bloodstream, which is the same amount needed for an IV. Once again, you have consistently been proven wrong.

In the 1970s, oxymorphone was highly sought after by the IV community. The quote is saying, that in the 1970s, this 10mg instant release pill of oxymorphone was very water soluble and highly sought after (people wanted it). People wanted it because this same 10mg instant release pill, if injected, could yield 10 different iv doses of 1mg. (1mg is the standard IV dose of Oxymorphone). People wanted it because it is so powerful when IV or IM or Subcutaneous.

Where's your 10x number? If that was it, the quote you pulled out of wikipedia that has absolutely NOTHING to do with potency, then you have lost this argument from the beginning, as I have suspected and show you through sources, and complete analysis. Like I have stated several times, OXYMORPHONE IS NOT 10X STRONGER THAN MORPHINE WHEN TAKEN BY THESE FOLLOWING ROA's but not limited to:
Insufflation
Per Os

This is the end of story. You have been proved wrong, time and time again. Ask a scientist, do a Gastro, do something. Just don't spread inaccurate, misinformed information here. It's fine if you did not know at first, but time and time again you still show disregard to blatant facts, and clearly misunderstand the information you regard as your source. For the last time, oxymorphone is 3-6 times stronger than morphine. 3x-4.5x when taken orally, about 4.5-6x when insufflated.

muvolution
04-09-2010, 02:47
you are an idiot.

if IV 1mg OM = 10 mg Morphine (same ROA, same bioavailability) then OM is 10x stronger than Morphine.
The MOLECULE has a 10x higher affinity (big word, might want to look it up) for your opiate receptors. The molecule's affinity for receptors has nothing to do with the route of administration.
Seeing as how the route of administration was insuffulation, that gives a ~50%BA. 10mg of a drug with a 50% bio-availability will yield 5mg getting into your system. Once it's in your system, It's the same as if you had IV'd it - there is 5mg to work with, and since it shows a 10x stronger affinity for your mu1 and 2 receptors than morphine, the yield will be as if you had 50mg of morphine in your system.

now apply that same math to 7.5mgs. what's the answer?

WILL A MODERATOR PLEASE STEP IN AND SOLVE THIS ISSUE, BECAUSE i DON'T WANT ANYONE GETTING SICK, HURT, OR DYING BECAUSE OF INCORRECT MATH AND SOME SILLY FLAME WAR.

jamesBrown
04-09-2010, 07:48
How about you both stop talking about it and post to other members to listen to none of it since apparently it cant be solved without "mommy moderator" stepping in.

arthunter888
04-09-2010, 07:56
Let me clear things up. People are easily confused when factoring absorption (BA) in to the equation when comparing analgesic strenths...

Some don't understand that the "potency" of a substance ASSUMES the IV route. Why? Because it is usually 100% for ALL drugs. Therefore, it is an unbiased and straight-forward starting point for comparing strengths. Therefore, molecule 1 (in the blood) is ___x stronger than molecule 2 (in the blood).
When one (or both) drugs is/are NOT taken via IV, then you need to factor in the BA to compare the relative overall effect---or EFFICACY--between the two...

OM = oxymorphone, M = morphine

15mg OM (nasal) x 43% (BA) = 6.45mg OM (in the blood).

And since my opiate calculator says [1mg OM (IV) = 10mg M (IV)], this is like saying a blood-molecule of OM is 10x the strength of a blood-molecule of M.

So----> 6.45mg OM x 10 = 64.5mg M (in the blood).

Since 6.45mg OM resulted from snorting 15mg OM, it is true that "15mg oxymorphone snorted is equal to 64.5mg morphine in your system" --- though the BA was a little different, muvolution's method was correct.

If you want to be meticulous in regard to extended-release pills, you'd factor in the gelling mechanisms of specific pills (how they affect absorption) as well as the time elapsed til peak blood concentration, but there is no accurate mathematical method so far for this to be reliable.

Now let's figure out the relative strengths with a more common ROA, oral morphine. the BA of oral morphine is about 25%. So 25% of 1/4 of 100%. Therefore, 1mg morphine (in the blood) results from 4mg morphine swallowed, so multiply by 4...

------> 64.5mg M x 4 = 258mg M ----> therefore 15mg nasal OM = 258mg oral Morphine, meaning nasal OM is 17.2x the efficacy of oral M.

***Keep in mind that the BA of an ROA ASSUMES a pure chemical. Pills are very diluted forms of an active chemical, because of all the filler. While the oral BA of an instant-release pill will be pretty close to the BA of the pure chemical, the nasal BA of the pill will be a little less the nasal BA of a pure chemical, because of how small the nasal passages are (e.g. dripping down throat). So 43% nasal BA of an Opana pill is generous, but when talking harm reduction it's best to assume the most.***

muvolution
04-09-2010, 08:20
God, thank you for clearing that up. I get 180 10IR's a month and I have done my research so I know what's up.

muvolution
04-09-2010, 08:23
How about you both stop talking about it and post to other members to listen to none of it since apparently it cant be solved without "mommy moderator" stepping in.

in the interest of harm reduction (and as a long-time user, short-time bluelighter) I really wanted to see this settled by someone such as yourself or a more experienced user or moderator.

shadyMyster
04-09-2010, 17:12
How many times do I have to repeat....IV/IM/SC concerning Oxymorphone is 10x the strength of morphine, via those same ROA's. Look at my previous posts and you will see that. The ROA of concern here is NEITHER of those. Insufflation does not equate to 10x the strength "in the blood". Otherwise, the conversion would be 10x for all doses, not .333, or 4.5-6 for Per Os. An oral dose hits the blood too, so when you have this ROA, insufflation, or a rectal administration, you're theory is that each molecule is 10x the strength of morphine? The problem with this, is that, taken orally, or insufflated, there is an onset where the organs (mucosa membranes and gastro) have to break down the drug. That enlies the sole reason IV is so powerful... it is injected directly into the bloodstream, with a seconds onset.

I repeat, where are you two getting this 10x number. On all of the conversion charts, you will see opana having a IV strength of 1mg to morphine's iv/im/sc strength of 10mg. This is not the case for Oral, or Insufflation, or rectal. I imagine the efficacy of rectal administration to be a bit higher than the previous two. *For harm reduction, yes having a higher number to gauge on is great, but it's the principle, Oxymorphone is 10x more potent in the blood, I agree with that statement....and have the entire conversation. What I do not agree with, is the claims that it is still 10x stronger, when taken by insufflation, and most certainly without a doubt, Per os. I stand by my calculations (assuming 43%-50% bioavailability increase via high lipid intake) that a 15mg dose will yield between 6.45-7.50 properly absorbed, (3-6) = 38.7, 45mg equivalent to morphine (x .25 if you want to get the absorption for m).

The only reason I am still not succombing to either of your calculations for the ROA of insufflation, is because it does have a BA and absorption rate that is analogous to IV/IM/SC. Therefore, if your claim that every molecule "in the blood" is 10x the strength of morphine, that may be true only for those ROAs. This is not possible with Per Os and Insufflation. These methods, once again, incur an onset, (minus all other mechanisms of impetence, such as gelling as previously noted, drip, and all of erroneous factors for all intents and purposes for this conversation). That makes the 10x claim relative only to IV/IM/SC, not the other ROAs.

Golani
04-09-2010, 21:47
Opanas make me sick as hell, and I don't know exactly why. I usually just crush them up and then snort 'em, with the outer layer of ER and everything. Perhaps this is why? But the fucking outer layer is so damn hard to get off!

Just snorted some roxies tho, and they never make me sick unless I eat too many :)

They used to make me sick too, until I started to peel the outer coating off with a razor blade.

Once you do it a few times you get really good at it and it can be done in less than a minute.

Make sure the razor blade is new and sharp. Makes peeling of the coating easier and more precise.

Then, with the shavings from the outer coating, I just pile them up and swallow them because they usually have a little bit of OM stuck to the inside of it anyhow.

PainGame
05-09-2010, 05:13
They used to make me sick too, until I started to peel the outer coating off with a razor blade.

Once you do it a few times you get really good at it and it can be done in less than a minute.

Make sure the razor blade is new and sharp. Makes peeling of the coating easier and more precise.

Then, with the shavings from the outer coating, I just pile them up and swallow them because they usually have a little bit of OM stuck to the inside of it anyhow.

First I want to thank Muv for the guide! That is very helpful information and will keep a lot of people safe!

And now a bit of a rant:

Has everyone just kind of spaced out and missed the FACT THAT THE SILICA IN THESE PILLS WILL DESTROY YOUR LUNGS??

I guess it is the nature of addicts versus patients.

Addicts will keep doing something even if they know that snorting around 200-300 OPANA ER in 1-2 years time period is virtually guaranteed to result in Silicosis about 10 years out.

Patients will read that and go, OH WOW, I don't really want to DIE.

If you must insuffalate use the method previously posted or go here for another method to get the silicate out:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=8735182&posted=1#post8735182

It is sad that people everywhere are at this point clueless about this and really there should be an effort to spread the information about what is in OPANA ER and why you should not snort it without a process to remove the silicates.

So many people that could have just been recreational users or recovered addicts are going to end up with their lives ruined by reduced lung capacity or death from Silicosis. In some ways it would be better if the disease stuck quickly as word would spread and people would stop or take the time to prepare the pills properly.

The fact that Silicosis appears at a minimum of 5-7 years after your first use means there are a lot of people walking around who are ticking time bombs, not knowing that their lungs will fail in the future.

If we here at Bluelight can get the word out somehow about silicified microcrystalline cellulose and why it is sinister shit, this site would TRUELY live up to its purpose of harm reduction.

Methadone clinics ought to start handing out flyers about this stuff, I am kind of baffled as to how to get the word out.... A lot of people are going to be hurt by it and it is sad. They are kids who deserve a second chance but won't get one because they are essentially putting ASBESTOS INTO PILLS.

ASBESTOS is a set of six naturally occurring silicate minerals exploited commercially for their desirable physical properties. They all have in common their asbestiform habit, long, (1:20) thin fibrous crystals. The inhalation of asbestos fibers can cause serious illnesses, including malignant lung cancer, mesothelioma (a formerly rare cancer strongly associated with exposure to asbestos and fiber glass.), and asbestosis (a type of Silicosis).

silicified microcrystalline cellulose is being put into OPANA ER and other pills coming soon to a theater near you. Awareness has got to be raised about this!

If you are or have been snorting a pill like OPANA that has this in it you might as well have spent the last 40 years working with ASBESTOS because that is exactly what is coming for you - except you will not have anyone to sue but yourself, as the drug companies will just say the pills are safe if you take them orally which is true!

Hopefully if enough people repeat this it will begin to spread on the nets and more will refrain from snorting pills without processing out the SILICA or making sure there is none in there to begin with.

I would ask a MODERATOR to please start a sticky with a growing master list of ALL PILLS CONATINING silicified microcrystalline cellulose so people can do a quick check to see if a pill is safe to snort or not.

Also the community can all contribute by researching the ingredients on their favorite pills to find pills that need to be added to the list.

Actually I would not be surprised if the new version of OXYCONTIN may also need to be added. It seems to be a popular ingredient in time release formulations, nut it is new and is going to end up in all kinds of pills.

jamesBrown
05-09-2010, 05:17
I think thats^^^^ a great idea.

I also think the drug company's should stop putting these deadly materials inside their medications in order to prevent people from using the meds the way they want to. All medications have to have come from some natural source at some point or another(even fully synthetic drugs are created by using natural substances) ...so why make it so hard to enjoy the benefits(and problems) of all that is natural and given to us by the earth?

arthunter888
05-09-2010, 08:08
How many times do I have to repeat...

The problem with this, is that, taken orally, or insufflated, there is an onset where the organs (mucosa membranes and gastro) have to break down the drug. That enlies the sole reason IV is so powerful... it is injected directly into the bloodstream, with a seconds onset...

That makes the 10x claim relative only to IV/IM/SC, not the other ROAs.

I can read your argument a little better now. This is still kind of tricky, but you bring up a valid point. To my understanding, you are emphasizing the effect that rate of onset has on the analgesic strength of a given dose of a given drug.

And it may be true that a #mg of a drug that enters the blood completely in under a minute (IV) would have a greater analgesic effect than the same #mg of a drug entering the blood gradually over the course of an hour (oral). This is probably because the in the former case [U] more molecules are bound to the receptor as the same time, so the sum of the molecules' combined analgesic potential takes effect at once.

But, are the opiate calculators factoring this aspect into the result?

Let's test it out...

15mg OM (IV) x 100% (BA) = 15mg OM (in the blood).

15mg OM (IV) x 10 = 150mg M (in blood). ------> 150mg M (in blood) results from 600mg M swallowed (x4 because 25% BA). Therefore 15mg OM (IV) = 600mg M (oral), assuming that rate of onset does not effect blood-molecule strenght.

And the opiate calculator says 15mg OM (IV) = 450mg oral. That's a 25% difference from the method muv and I used, but note that the calc is giving oral Morphine a GREATER strength than our methods. If the onset rates were causing the difference (meaning if it was accounted for in the calc), then I would expect the morphine dose to be considered WEAKER (higher #) in the calc than in my method, since I wasn't factoring that oral morphine takes more time until peak blood concentrations than IV. This would be the case if the calc DID consider this. This is what produces some doubt for me that that is the only discrepancy.

And another thing, what about at the time the oral dose peaks. This means the entire dose is bound to your receptors. Would the onset rate still apply when the analgesia of when the [entire dose is receptor bound with oral] is compared to when the [entire dose is receptor-bound with IV.] The rabbit hole grows deeper.

But in the end, how are we to know for sure which variable is inconsistent between the calc and our own method. It would make sense based on the onset rate as explained above that this is the discrepancy, but---again---if this were so I would expect the morphine dose would need to be HIGHER rather than lower. What if the calculator is simply using different BAs and/or factoring other variables not mentioned? There are just way too many variables that contribute to the overall analgesic effect for all people, and that's BEFORE considering the drug-processing differences between INDIVIDUALS.

It would be interesting to see the logic behind the opiate calculator (how it is calculated). This is the only way to know for sure, but in the end your argument about onset rate is most likely true, I'm just not sure to what extent it applies.

Sorry for the length, but there's a very sophisticated amount of logic and brain power involved in thinking about all these variables.

shadyMyster
05-09-2010, 22:45
[QUOTE=arthunter888;8747411]I can read your argument a little better now. This is still kind of tricky, but you bring up a valid point. To my understanding, you are emphasizing the effect that rate of onset has on the analgesic strength of a given dose of a given drug.

Exactly. It's all relative strengths. When you gander at an opiate calculation or conversion chart/solver you will see that only when compared vs each other do you get the correct calculation. Meaning, all of their strengths are relative to one another. They are gauged using a comparative scale.

So, what I was getting from your arguments, is that, insufflation of Oxymorphone is akin to Injecting Oxymorphone. This is not correct. Yes, the rate of onset and ROA come into play here, amongst other variables.

To wrap things up, Oxymorphone will only be 10x the strength of Morphine, when compared both to using IV/IM/SC. This is because of many factors, one being the quick onset, negating other variables such as gelling, lipid increase to capitalize on 50% ba, etc. etc. and so on.

Thus, as previously stated, a more accepted rate, (in my view and according to my research/calculations), [B]oxymorphone via Insufflation is equivalent to 4.5x-6x the strength of Morphine, dependent on several variant factors, such as b.a., onset, negating factors such as gelling, physical blockages, absorption rates, and others.

muvolution
06-09-2010, 03:13
Thus, as previously stated, a more accepted rate, (in my view and according to my research/calculations), [B]oxymorphone via Insufflation is equivalent to 4.5x-6x the strength of Morphine, dependent on several variant factors, such as b.a., onset, negating factors such as gelling, physical blockages, absorption rates, and others.

we are saying the same thing. 1mg x 10 (relative potency) x .5 (50% BA) = 5mg, which falls right in the middle of your 4.5 -6 #.
That was the long way to get there, but we are saying the same thing.

shadyMyster
06-09-2010, 04:30
Only in IV/IM is it 10-1 ratio, as I previously have stated. It is more around 4.5-6x the potency of Morphine for insufflation.

I have said that from the very beginning. You on the other hand,



He insuffulated the 15mg of Oxymorphone.
Oxymorphone is 10 times stronger than morphine.
15x10= 150 x .43 = 64.5 equivalent analgesic dose of Morphine.


No, you stand incorrect. This is what started this quarrel. ^

I have said that from the very beginning it was 4.5-6x. Clearly, you were saying Oxymorphone insufflated is 10x stronger than morphine. Which it is not. It is only about 4.5-6x. Also known as, you were comparing IV/IM/SC oxymorphone to IV Morphine, and specifically applying that ratio to the ROA of insufflation. So, your numbers were off, and so was the claim that via ROA Insufflation is 10x stronger than Morphine, which is also incorrect.

End.

arthunter888
06-09-2010, 06:07
^^ He wasn't saying that oxymorphone insufflated was 10x stronger than morphine. He was simply saying that a mg of OM that makes it into the blood is 10x as potent as a mg of M that makes it into the blood, regardless of ROA. Therefore, he used this to begin the calculation, and then he factored in BA to get the efficacy, which even he knew was not 10x when the calculation was done.

This is what I thought initially also. But then I eventually figured that the rate of onset would effect the efficacy somewhat. But this case is far from closed, because we still do not know the exact extent to which the rate of onset affects efficacy, and then you'd have to account for duration, because this will distort understanding of efficacy as well. But you can still use these type of calculations to get a "ball park" estimation.

Golani
06-09-2010, 06:12
First I want to thank Muv for the guide! That is very helpful information and will keep a lot of people safe!

And now a bit of a rant:

Has everyone just kind of spaced out and missed the FACT THAT THE SILICA IN THESE PILLS WILL DESTROY YOUR LUNGS??



Damn, I didnt know that at all!
Im kinda new to Opana ER and only use them when I dont have any Oxycodone around.

Its amazing how almost all of the "anti abuse" ingredients in these pills usually are just as unhealthy if not more then the previous ingredients and chemistry.

Anyhow, I find Opana ER a REALLY boring drug. And I get them for only $4 a peice.

arthunter888
06-09-2010, 06:36
The only way to get a PRACTICAL conversion of efficacy, is simply to use SUBJECTIVE trial and error. This means, you get a milligram scale, and measure out a particular mass of an Opana pill. You insufflate it as efficiently as possible. You increase your dose every so slightly (by 5mg of pill powder or so)--seperated by 7 days to eliminate tolerance-- until you find a dose that made you as high as you could get before a further increase would make you sick.
Then, you do the same thing with oral Morphine. Keep increasing until you find your maximum tolerable dose, and then you compare the maximum dose for each. To make things consistent, you would need to be using Opana IR, and morphine IR to avoid different rates of release factoring in and confusing things.

I did something similar, after many weeks using both (tolerance reset between doses). I found that my maximum tolerable dose of 40mg-Opana ER was 30mg of powder. This equals 5.45mg of oxymorphone (since a 40 is 220mg without coating). I did this also with oxycodone IR. My max dose was a whole 15mg pill plugged. Both cases were 45 minutes after a similar fatty meal.

So this means nasal Opana ER is roughly 3x the efficacy of rectal Oxy IR, for me at least. But since is was Opana EXTENDED RELEASE, the molecules' progress in binding to the receptors is "stretched out" compared to Oxy IR; Hence I would assume Opana IR would be closer to 5-6x the efficacy.

IMO, this is the best way of getting practical equivalencies. Although there will be some biases (e.g. individual perception of euphoria/extent of intoxication), you are gauging the END result of the effect of a drug (therefore all the debatable factors like rate of onset and gelling are already accounted for). I'd bet if more people could and would experiment this way, we'd have a pool of data from which to get averaged equivalencies.

homeydontplaythat
07-09-2010, 01:10
this fentanyl and good powder heroin are the only opiates i would consider now that im on suboxone. i mean if i were to use anything to try to get high, this shit would be my choice. in a 40mg pill if you IV it is so much stronger than getting even a half gram of good heroin.

shadyMyster
07-09-2010, 01:15
we are saying the same thing. 1mg x 10 (relative potency) x .5 (50% BA) = 5mg, which falls right in the middle of your 4.5 -6 #.
That was the long way to get there, but we are saying the same thing.

No, we are not. Not at all. Only for IV/IM/SC are we in agreement.

It seems both of you believe that Oxymorphone via insufflation equates to 10x the potency of Morphine. This is not subjective, because regardless of "in the blood" or where this drug is absorbed and broken down (gastro, muscousa), it will not be 10x the strength of Morphine, unless directed by the previously noted iv/im/sc.

4.5x-6x is for insufflation. Just like oxymorphone is ingested orally, which is a lower rate of about 4 or .333x.

Muv's calculation above my response is 1mg OM x 10 (strength vs morphine) / 5 = 5mg. This would be the case, again only for iv/im/sc as I have now stated about TEN TIMES now, which is not to be confused with insufflation, which would turn the 5mg into 2.25 and 3 repsectively, using 4.5x and 6x. Why is that so hard to understand, I'm bewildered. Are you in disagreement with other calculations such as for oxycodone and methadone? Hydrocodone and levorphanol? Fentanyl and Demerol?

The fact is, when a drug is administered via IV/IM/SC, compared to taken orally, rectally, sublingually, insufflated, etc., they will have different strengths and doses. Why is that so hard to grasp? Just because 1mg oxymorphone injected = 10mg morphine injected, does not mean by any stretch, that the numbers are the same for insufflation or oral etc.

Khadijah
16-09-2010, 19:13
I aint read this whole thread front to back, but i aint seen a whole lot of talk about opana vs methadone tolerance wise.

I been on about 100mg a day for a year now and it always been mad hard for me to feel anythin from opana. Anytime I done it, its been at least 40 sniffed all at one time. (Ive fucked with 40, 60, and 80mg doses, but aint been able to afford goin higher. shits expensive, and if it was mad effective it would be worth it but it sux to pay alot for somethin thats only keepin you at baseline.) Anyways, Once I sniffed 80 (40+20+20) over about a half hour and i felt somethin close to a high comin on, but that was the closest ive ever got.

It seems like for me at least, methadone makes your tolerance so high to other opioids , and I mean even when you off the done (24-36 hours after the last dose, when WD signs are starting to show) even doin the opana aint quite kept me on the level.

Im just curious how any longtime daily methadone users feel about opana and how strong u find it to be. I see posts by people who take 250 mg of oxy a day and say they get high off sniffing 20mg opana and it seems crazy to me. I cant imagine gettin anything close to the highs some of yall describin without havin 2-3 40's at least.

We all know that at doses around 50mg or more methadone has a blockin type effect on gettin high off other opiates, but like i said, Im talkin about bein off the shit long enough to feel WDs comin on. by that time, your tolerance will still be up , but the actual blockin effect wouldnt be effective.

It seems like ever since I got on done, the only drug that is ever worth doin if i want somethin recreational is dope. I tried oxy many times, 200+mg , and felt basically nothing....and the opana experiments i done from time to time also ended up less than amazing. It got me thru and i knew i was on a opiate since I didnt feel sick and generally felt "pleasant" but its like I could never break thru and actually feel a HIGH, with anything except heroin.

i aint usin drugs now, since I am pregnant 5 months and obviously gettin high is outta the question. Just readin thru this thread brough up alot of memories for me and it made me wonder if anybody else on done experienced the same shit. Opana seems to be the "heavyweight champ" but 80mg gave me an effect just about the same as when i take a little extra done on top of my regular dose. nothin to write home about, for sure. Wat yall think?

Healgasm
17-09-2010, 02:48
I just started doing Opana this month and this thread has officially freaked me out with the silicosis. Guess this will be my last weekend of fun with them.

curlygurl1980
17-09-2010, 03:35
i tired one awhille back and i have a very high opiate tolerance i got a forty snorted half and it rocked my freaking world!! i honestly never thought i could ever get that high anymore off of any kind of opiate especially that little bit!! it was fantastic u definitley definitley want to try it!!! i hadnt nodded out in like eight years and nodded for like 4 hours straight seriously!!!! loved it but the down side is opiates ruined my life so Im on suboxone now and i shouldnt actualy encourage anyone to do pills but that particular pill did rock my world so if u r going to get high anywayz that is definitly the one to try

curlygurl1980
17-09-2010, 03:42
oh and make sure u take the time release off just pop it in your mouth for a few seconds then take a rag and rub gently and it will come off if not u will get sick

adubwakka
17-09-2010, 03:58
i tired one awhille back and i have a very high opiate tolerance i got a forty snorted half and it rocked my freaking world!! i honestly never thought i could ever get that high anymore off of any kind of opiate especially that little bit!! it was fantastic u definitley definitley want to try it!!! i hadnt nodded out in like eight years and nodded for like 4 hours straight seriously!!!! loved it but the down side is opiates ruined my life so Im on suboxone now and i shouldnt actualy encourage anyone to do pills but that particular pill did rock my world so if u r going to get high anywayz that is definitly the one to try

I dont know why, but l laughed my ass off at this post.


Thank you for your input curlygurl(seriously, im not being a dick here).


On another note, anyone think about 30 mg of Opana will punch through a suboxone blocker if i havent taken subox for about 30 hours, and ive only been on it for a week.

A week ago, 20 mg of opana would rock me pretty good and i havent done any Opana since then.


Note: Id just like to say that im not relapsing, Im not addicted to opiates, the suboxone was for rec use also.

Oppyandme
17-09-2010, 20:24
I have been using opana for a while now in doses of between 20 - 200mg daily. I snort and dont shoot after my last missed shot. IMO, nothing comes close to OM in terms of potency, specifically the euphoria it provides. I was copping dope for a little and saw no need to continue buying buns when I could just get opana.

RSnNC
18-09-2010, 13:34
SupSup! Ive had the Opanas for bout 4 months now! I only have the 15's 3 x a day! They break very easy. You can wet your fingers and it removes easily or bang it and remove the small coat. You hit bout 2 or 3 and T-Dow! lol

8o

adder
18-09-2010, 14:39
Don't believe in this ridiculous math here. There's no such a thing when it comes to drug comparison.

If those simplifications based on SAR were really true, then hydromorphone would be really 5x morphine with 100% BA and oxymorphone would be 10x morphine with 100% BA. Actually neither hydromorphone is 5x morphine nor oxymorphone is 10x morphine. Hydromorphone and oxymorphone are very close in potency and it's more than 5x but certainly less than 10x.

usocrazygirl
25-09-2010, 00:37
Hello everyone, longtime lurker here. I have a chance today to get Opana ER 40's and was wondering if anyone here has tried this stuff out yet. Can you rail this stuff out or can you only bang it or what.

All as I can say is I've tried it all and I mean it all! I'm not proud of it but it became a horrible addiction that I've been dealin with for 6 years! but OPANA 40 er kicks ass! my niece is into heroin and I tried it a few times when I couldnt get my pills and I didnt want to be sick and it didnt touch me! I wasnt sick but I wasnt high and I did five bags I dont! shoot tried it and got out of it quick too scared! I have MS and thats how this whole shit started. I went from a 320mg of oc habit a day to my dr putting me on OPANA ER 40mg I do three when I first get my hands on them and I feel a rush within 5 min then I do 1 or 2 every few hours after to maintain the high I wouldnt recomend anybody to use like me it would prob kill you so conssider it a warning and I rail it but my tolerance is realllll high! H is cut OPANA is more pure even oc's i got my hands on 4 80's yesterday railed them all and I did catch a buzz no rush and nothing like OPANA! I screwed up the whole deal with my DR so i have to buy off the street so id get to do it as much as I would like but if you over do them u better make sure you got something for ur withdrawls! something for the mental like xanax and suboxone so you dont torture ur self! If I had it to do over again I would of nvr ever touched an opiate!

shadyMyster
25-09-2010, 00:48
That comment was scattered with tid-bits of information and exclamation points. Hardly worth posting.

homeydontplaythat
25-09-2010, 22:54
i remember when i was a teenager i would dream about OM. at that time i think there was oramorph solution. it really was not used much though....too potent. now that is is in a pill for oral use and it is ER i think drs think it is much safer. an abuse proof pill as well. my god, how naive can you get? NOTHING is abuse proof. iso alcohol is all you need to shoot this shit and MY GOD it IS more potent than heroin!!

i used to think OC was basically as potent as heroin...i still think that, even though the effects are slightly different. i could have an OC80 or a .5g of good dope and they would basically be the same damn thing. with OM....its WAY more potent than good dope. so much cleaner too. reminds me of when dilaudid was big in the late 90s. dudes would be trading H for dillies like crazy. now its H for OM. with H for HM it was a decent deal since the H lasts way longer but the HM has a waaay better rush. however, with OM there isnt really a trade off. the OM is all around better than h! better rush, better nod, you know what you are getting, generally cleaner. when you extract it with iso the solution is totally clear.

i was given one 40 stop sign for free at the library. fucking suboxone ruined it. i got a rush for like 10 mins off the entire pill. man i wish i could find that generous stranger again. i would gladly not take bupe for 3 days and cum all over myself when i slam that OM. fuck i want to get high.

hydroazuanacaine
27-09-2010, 05:23
i was given one 40 stop sign for free at the library.
cool library.

BIGsherm7272
27-09-2010, 05:59
i remember when i was a teenager i would dream about OM. at that time i think there was oramorph solution. it really was not used much though....too potent. now that is is in a pill for oral use and it is ER i think drs think it is much safer. an abuse proof pill as well. my god, how naive can you get? NOTHING is abuse proof. iso alcohol is all you need to shoot this shit and MY GOD it IS more potent than heroin!!

i used to think OC was basically as potent as heroin...i still think that, even though the effects are slightly different. i could have an OC80 or a .5g of good dope and they would basically be the same damn thing. with OM....its WAY more potent than good dope. so much cleaner too. reminds me of when dilaudid was big in the late 90s. dudes would be trading H for dillies like crazy. now its H for OM. with H for HM it was a decent deal since the H lasts way longer but the HM has a waaay better rush. however, with OM there isnt really a trade off. the OM is all around better than h! better rush, better nod, you know what you are getting, generally cleaner. when you extract it with iso the solution is totally clear.

i was given one 40 stop sign for free at the library. fucking suboxone ruined it. i got a rush for like 10 mins off the entire pill. man i wish i could find that generous stranger again. i would gladly not take bupe for 3 days and cum all over myself when i slam that OM. fuck i want to get high.

Oramorph is morphine, not oxymorphone.