antheads said:
phase_dancer said:
Most if not all of this is normally presented to approving bodies like the TGA, and I've found most requests are facilitated, even if the company spokesperson initially tries to deter you, or states the info is not publicly available.
Irrelevant, just like the Neo range, the cold hard facts are not easily avaible to the consumer, and certainly the GP is not aware of it. An no i don't mean the pissweak pamphlets that come with the pharma mindbenders.
The information
is generally available to anyone who asks for it. If a GP doesn’t know about this sort of thing, or isn’t willing to put the time into learning it or validating pharmaceutical advertising, then he’s/she’s not worth consulting IMO. I make sure anyone I’m consulting either knows this stuff, or will put in the effort to learn.
Most GPs are over-worked, and the range of new drugs entering the market is increasing all the time. There's also no doubt that many GPs are influenced by Pharmaceutical reps, but so what? The onus should still fall on the doctor to verify the safety and efficacy of a product. My current GP only works 3 days a week and reviews stuff in his spare time. At 68, he admits it's hard keeping up with new drugs, but I find he's up to date on most things, probably because he's willing to dedicate time to studying journal articles and clinical trials data. He might not be the favourite of pharm reps, but his patients love him.
While there is argument for broader - more community and government - representation within the Australian Pharmaceutical Manufacturers Association (APMA), industry codes of conduct, including those concerned with monitoring high risk products are being improved constantly. While Australia’s system is not as independent as that of the UK, there is provision within Australia for complaints to be made, which are - or should be - followed up by the TGA, and even the ACCC if a serious violation of the codes is thought to have occurred.
antheads said:
phase_dancer said:
At least these companies always reveal the chemical structures of the active ingredients
Meaningless to the consumer.
For the consumer who places all faith in the GPs recommendations, then perhaps not. But I thought we were talking about those who
actively seek more info about a product they are considering taking, or being prescribed. Knowing the structure or chemical name isn’t meaningless for many people. It facilitates searching pubmed or other online source for additional clinical and related info.
antheads said:
As is the identification of the neo products from 12 months ago without actual further study.
I don’t know where 12 months ago came from. The products were received by the analysts in late July and initial analyses occurred within days of that.
I have to also ask; do you really think the company has such an arsenal of drugs that it regularly changes the formulations to such a degree that this analytical info is meaningless? Have you looked at the results of the Bluelight survey? There’s some interesting stuff in there, and it certainly provides incentive for further study on these compounds. It also indicates there are safety concerns with these products. Surely you don’t expect an initial analysis to provide you with clinical trials data? But hey, if we could, we would…
antheads said:
phase_dancer said:
While some companies may bend the rules, the system for product approval and continual monitoring is, generally speaking, quite effective and is constantly being upgraded.
Are you serious? Are you conscious what side you are on? Have you ever been with a person trying to to give up Effexor for example? …
I’m not on any side. I prioritise my actions towards HR, and with that I accept there is a need for HR to not only be applied to illicit drugs, but to any and all drugs.
Let’s look at Effexor and what sort of info is available to the consumer on the drug. The MIMS info is vast and covers virtually everything, certainly withdrawal:
From MIMS
Abrupt discontinuation of Efexor-XR.
Discontinuation effects are well known to occur with antidepressants. Discontinuation symptoms have been assessed both in patients with depression and in those with anxiety. Abrupt discontinuation, dose reduction or tapering of venlafaxine at various doses has been found to be associated with the appearance of new symptoms, the frequency of which increased with increased dose level and with longer duration of treatment.
Symptoms reported included agitation, anorexia, anxiety, confusion, dry mouth, fatigue, paraesthesiae, vertigo, hypomania, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, convulsion, headache, diarrhoea, sleep disturbance, insomnia, somnolence, sweating and nervousness. Where such symptoms occurred, they were usually self limiting, but in a few patients lasted for several weeks.
Discontinuation effects were systematically studied in a long-term fixed dose trial for generalised anxiety disorder; 24 and 11% of patients recorded the appearance of at least three withdrawal symptoms on abrupt discontinuation from venlafaxine 150 or 75 mg once daily, respectively, compared with 3% for placebo. The most commonly reported withdrawal symptoms on abrupt discontinuation were nausea, vomiting, dizziness, lightheadedness and tinnitus from venlafaxine 150 mg once daily and dizziness from venlafaxine 75 mg once daily.
In this study, severe withdrawal reactions were observed in 1.3% of patients discontinuing from 75 mg once daily (no patients requiring further drug treatment).
There is also a report of a withdrawal syndrome, confirmed by two challenges in a 32 year old woman who had received venlafaxine 300 mg daily for eight months. It is therefore recommended that the dosage of Efexor-XR be tapered gradually and the patient monitored. The period required for discontinuation may depend on the dose, duration of therapy and the individual patient (see Dosage and Administration and Adverse Reactions).
So, I’d say that anyone wanting to find out about Effexor can do so quite easily. The warnings are certainly there regarding withdrawal. The words addiction or habit forming may not be used but withdrawal is, which by definition, implies Venlafaxine (Efflexor) is addictive.
Definition of withdrawal:
freedictionary.com said:
with•draw•al (w -drô l, w th-)
1. The act or process of withdrawing, as:
a. A retreat or retirement.
b. Retreat of a military force in the face of enemy attack or after a defeat.
c. Detachment, as from social or emotional involvement.
d. A removal from a place or position of something that has been deposited.
2.
a. Discontinuation of the use of an addictive substance.
b. The physiological and mental readjustment that accompanies such discontinuation.
3. The act or an instance of retracting or revoking: feared the withdrawal of his parents' permission.
4. Coitus interruptus.
I could harp on about zoloft or perhaps the cathinone analouges being perscribed to overweight mums as diet pills by hohoho your friendly family doctor) anyway…
I won’t even begin to go into how many people I’ve known who have had their lives improved by antidepressants. Sure, there’s a significant number who don’t respond well to this kind of mood medication, but there’s also many that do. So, while this type of treatment isn't always best for everyone, many have had their lives improved by SSRIs and SNRIs. Personally, at this stage in life I find a beer at the end of the day to be the best therapeutic remedy to life’s little maladies, but that doesn’t mean this is for everyone.
Cathinone derivatives were once prescribed for weight reduction, but today in Australia, as with most western countries, they are not. Why? Simply because they were shown to possess undesirable properties, something the pharmaceutical industries may or may not have known at the time. But considering these drugs have not been approved for use in Australia for two decades or so, it’s hardly relevant today.
The three major drugs prescribed for obesity and related disorders today are
Phentermine ,
Sibutramine and
Olistat . None of these drugs are cathinone analogues, and none except perhaps phentermine have similar actions, although these are reportedly more like amphetamine.
antheads said:
Effexor: the withdrawal is worse than heroin and up there with benzos.. i've helped several people go cold turkey off h and i havent experiened anything like i've seen with effexor withdrawal when you see somone having hours holding their head percieved agony from brain zaps, combined with episodes of irrational violence,…
I wouldn’t doubt for a moment that withdrawal from Efflexor can be nasty. But we also have to take into account whether, in ceasing use, that person is not also relapsing into a previously diagnosed condition. Withdrawal would naturally be expected to be far worse if this was the case.
FWIW, to those who’ve suffered from benzo withdrawal; I’ve known several instances where withdrawal has been horrid, however I've also known other users to suffer few if any withdrawal symptoms (including myself after ceasing use following weeks @ 40 diazepam /day). While there’s no doubt there’s withdrawal problems for many long term benzo users, I believe it’s often more about who you are and your reasons for using in the first place. I do not regard valium as even remotely euphoric – it’s simply not what I call euphoria - but other things not usually considered euphoric are to me, and that’s possibly why I didn’t really notice much when I ceased using diazepam. I used it for the anxiety caused by grief, and once that had passed, there was simply no need for it.
Much the same can be said for heroin. Some have terrible withdrawals from using daily for a week. Others I know regard withdrawal as a day or two of discomfort. I know an accomplished yoga teacher who has used heroin periodically throughout her life. Yet she can walk away from it without a problem, and does so regularly for extended periods. I also knew a couple who every year holidayed in Thailand for 2-3 months at a time. They both used heroin daily while they're there, yet neither was ever tempted to use when they returned to Aus. They said the first few days are a bitch, but nothing anyone with determination can't overcome. What I'm saying here is, if your life is otherwise good, and you are basically a happy and content person, then addiction may not mean the same to you as with someone who only acheives pleasure (or relief) from the drug.
antheads said:
… you just have to go WOW at the fact that this stuff is given out LIKE CANDY by any zombie doctor who has a patient complaining of 'feeling down' thanks`$consumer you are now cured of your neurochemical imbalance for life! Pity you're hooked for life too tho but we don't tell you that part!
The drug isn’t, or shouldn’t be handed out as a ‘cure all’. If it
is being handed out ‘willy nilly’, then perhaps this is more of a reflection on the GP doing his/her job properly i.e. not following up manufacurers claims or learning the basic pharmacology.
From MIMS on Efflexor
Uses/ Indications
Serotonin (5HT) and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor. Major depression (treatment, relapse prevention and recurrence); generalised anxiety disorder; social anxiety disorder; panic disorder incl relapse prevention
A good GP is a listener, a counsellor and an advisor. If he/she determines a patient to be seriously affected, but might respond to a particular drug – even one with side effects – why wouldn’t he/she suggest or recommend it? Of course, the doctor would (or should) also be of the mind that possible side effects could well be less severe than the effect the condition itself is having. There’s always a risk the medication might not suit, but it’s not always suitable to propose a non-chemical treatment as an alternative, particularly if these options have already proved to be unsuccessful.
antheads said:
Actually lets take a step back here, mr phase, do u even agree with the premise that pharma antideps like effexor(thanks vanth) are highly addictive and this information is not being provided to the consumer by their medical *profesional?
I wouldn’t say that any antidepressant is safe for all people. As indicated by the info in MIMs, Effexor drug has potential withdrawal problems. You use the term “Highly Addictive”. I would tend to think addiction in regards to antidepressants is often much like that of recreational drugs, in that people who find they get ‘relief’ from antidepressants are more susceptible to becoming a slave to the drug. Without it, life is shit, yet they might desperately want to be free of the
need to take a drug everyday.
My neighbour has been on Aropax (Paxil) for over 10 years. He’s on a far higher dosage than was stated in the original company info as being the maximum dosage. He’s also been on the drug for nearly 4 times the initially recommended maximum period. When asked, he says he would love to not have to take it. However, he and his family consider Aropax to be the reason his life is so much better. He’s happy, active, and constructive in day to day activities. When he tries to go without his medication he relapses back into what he once was; depressed, suicidal, angry etc. Is that mainly due to symptoms of withdrawal or because his original condition returns?
antheads said:
Oh and while everyone is crucifying this doron and his evil cathinone analouges and saying there has been no studies about how safe it is etc. That is true to some extent, but keep this in mind ; there is no way anyone except big pharma could introduce such pleasant research compounds strictly according to 'the book at this point in time.
‘big pharma’ can’t, in this political climate develop and market such compounds, but you seem to be of the opinion that someone else should, even if that means marketing mixtures of ‘secret’ compounds, where no research data or disclosure on ingredients is forthcoming. It certainly doesn't sound like an ethically better approach to me.
antheads said:
…they stopped stargate when the substance got too good, so the neo/lu clandestine approach seems the only one that is viable in the current prohibition enviroment.
There’s a lot more to the NZ situation; pressure from those opposed to the concept of party pills, deaths linked to the use of piperazines (even if this wasn’t conclusive), the limited studies done on the short and long term safety of the compounds, and international pressures, particularly from the UN. Ever wonder why proposals to ban these products were announced at a time when UN officials were gathered in Christchurch?
antheads said:
More importantly in regards to safetly it is important to note THE WHOLE OF PARTY ISRAEL HAS BEEN DOSED UP. TS CALLED KIOSK DRUGS!!! ITS CALLED TRY IT OUT ON YOURSELF, THEN YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS THEN YOUR WIDER FRIENDS THEN IF EVERYONE IS O.K SELL IT AS PART OF FIGHTING THIS f#4343B PROHIBITION DRUG WAR!!!
AND THE TOXICOLOGY PROFILE IS QUITE MINOR COMPARED TO OTHERS!
How do you know the toxicity profile? You’ve already said
“…and saying there has been no studies about how safe it is etc. That is true to some extent,…” Some of these compounds have not been researched properly, and anecdotal evidence is never totally conclusive, particularly in regards to long term effects. What we do know, as mentioned on the Drug-forum post, is that some of the
metabolic products are known compounds, well researched and not without problems. It is ridiculous to conclude these products are safe, even with what we currently know about them.
So perhaprs some people need to get off their high horse about who is evil and profit blah blah... Don't you think if it was safe to reveal the ingrendiants without immediatly having the product illegalised and crucified this company would have done just that?? its catch22, damm if u do and dammed if you don't! Its dosn't seem good business practise to poison your customer base either, i don't think they kidsd would back with their cold hard cash to pay.
So, you’re implying pharm companies knowingly poison their customers by providing addictive drugs, while online vendors such as neorganics don’t?
I think your main gripe is with prohibition. If so, then I’d suggest becoming proactive; stand up, write to politicians, and attempt to chip away at this wall of denial. Whatever approach is taken, it’s going to be a long hard battle, and it's perhaps why so many people are willing to criticize but unwilling to provide any hands on assistance to promoting reform. Others of us give up our time for no return because we’re so alarmed at present policy, and see that things are only likely to get worse if nothing changes.
Many of us believe we have to tackle the problem completely from a position of science and medicine. There’s bound to be those who think we’ve ‘sold out’ or have some secret objective, but the reality is, we’re fighting for the safety of the public; from users to family and community members who are all affected by drugs and the current prohibition stance.
To improve health and wellbeing, we need to change the situation so less are being affected by the adverse nature of drug use. This includes being able to make an informed choice, being able to know the dosages of what you choose to take, improving available medical resources and networking in regards to illicit and licit drug use, and most importantly, having a multitiered backup system in place for all who fall to abuse.
antheads said:
phase_dancer said:
…because the recent clamp down by Israeli authorities has focused on cathinones (hagigat and analogues)
Incorrect.
Please explain? There have been several postings on this by me and others, on several forums. There’s much evidence to support this, including newspaper articles dating back to 2004. Try searching this thread for a couple of references. Even Doron has admitted this himself.
antheads said:
Btw i hear this phthalimidopropiophenone was used instead of glucose ie regarded as useless.
Oh, and from what authority did you hear that? Why would someone replace a filler or excipient such as glucose with phthalimidopropiophenone when there are countless numbers of benign excipients cheaply available? If it
is inactive, and that’s highly unlikely –based upon discussions with pharmacologists and looking at how similar drugs containing the phthalimido moiety are metabolised – then IMO it’s inclusion in these products could only be for one purpose; to mislead analysts.
For arguments sake, lets for a moment assume what you say is true; that it’s a useless additive. What does this reflect on company ethics? Their customers are unwittingly being exposed to a non-active compound which is a previously unknown and un-researched chemical.
However, I find it
really difficult to believe anyone would resort to using this compound as a ‘glucose substitute’. It would be relatively easy to see if it
is metabolised in-vivo - to produce cathinone - simply by analysing the urine of users. If the free
o-phthalic acid is present, then it’s been cleaved from the parent compound.
antheads said:
If as you state there will be a new generation of prodrugs as a result of these and other substances being supressed expect to see a vast increase in overdoses.
When there is an 2+hr onset as seems to be the case from *several prodrugs, the general public usually take more of the drug thinking its not working.. and then statiscally willl die more /
As I’ve also said previously, with or without disclosure of the neog ingredients, prodrugs will be a thing of the future. Some will also be likely to have very quick actions. It depends upon how easy the substance is to metabolise, especially if the attached group can be easily cleaved in acid environments, independent of enzyme involvement. Another approach would be to take a second substance – perhaps included in the formulation -that facilitates or speeds up metabolism.
antheads said:
phase_dancer said:
no way you can be sure these products are any better than obtaining drugs from a dealer. At least with MDMA, there has been significant work done on its toxicity.
In the spirit of harm minimisation in Aus i really wish those GC kids had access to this *organic range rather than the 'street pills obtained from a ' trusted dealer that contained PMA..
Oh and PMMA has killed a few kids in israel as well...But i'm sure they are blaming kiosk drugs in general for that..
PMA can be a very nasty drug, no one is denying that, but I don’t ever recall seeing cathinones attributed to PMA or PMMA related deaths. No-one wants to see an increase in PMA containing pills, however many of us feel this is a direct result of clampdowns on MDMA starting materials and precursors, as was well predicted. Other substances were, and are destined to appear as LE increases it’s effectiveness at reducing trafficking of common illicits. Neorg. is changing the formulations, and no doubt this will mean including other substances they will announce as being legal. It will be interesting to see if these turn out to be new or novel substances, whether toxicity profiles have been established, and whether these compounds will be legal outside of Israel. Replacements will have to be fairly novel if they hope to circumvent Aus state and federal legislation.
antheads said:
vanth said:
There is no way that they [MDMA & cathinone] could be used as a anti-depressants
i could be mistaken but it appears to be medically proven as well as several other psychological/psychiatric ailments....
I’m quite amazed that you support the idea of making cathinone (or analogues) available on one hand, while rubbishing pharmaceutically accepted drugs on the other. Cathinone and methcathinone
do have side effects. MethCat is considered neurotoxic and both are addictive; methcathinone more so than methamphetamine and methcathinone
is a metabolic product of dimethylcathinone.
As for Douglas Rushkoff, I enjoyed ‘Ecstasy Club’. It was a fun read.
