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blissfulMenace
25-12-2007, 03:34
For as long as i can remember there has been a cult following of people wanting an art forum, and this was brought back up to my attention when i noticed a new member, s1ck to be exact, mentioned there being a words but no art forum in his introduction.

So i came over here to the ol pluggin hole to see if there was any discussion amongst the moderators/admin to see if there was any discussion of this going on as mentioned.

I was surprised to find that there was none, especially since there are so many who want it.

I also read something about there once being an art forum and it was removed? I think NEW said this in the same introduction thread.

I realize prime holiday season probably isnt the best time to ask this question as traffic is low but i just wanted to know what the deal is on this, especially seeing as there is a 2d art thread that has maintained at least some strength, including the famed photography thread, a digital media thread, and im sure there is enough community to follow modern art as well.

guineaPig
25-12-2007, 03:41
i think an art forum would be cool actually. i've seen some work from BLers throughout the years that has been impressive, but they could only post it on a situational basis.

i'm all for it.

SA
25-12-2007, 03:53
Would you like to have a BL Art Forum? (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=294370)

Last post three months ago. :\

The problem to date has been keeping the movement alive. Do a search for "art" in the thread title in Second Opinion to get an idea of how the movement gets going and then stalls, repeatedly.

Vibby and I will be looking for a third moderator shortly, to replace the irreplaceable QuestionEverything, who was quite passionate about art and would have done so much for its cause on BL should she have had the opportunity to remain, IMHO. If we can get an arts minded mod to help us out with the cause...

guineaPig
25-12-2007, 03:59
well i'd be down for it. i dont go into SO too much but i would actually love to see a forum for art.
as is, i have to go to deviantart and other places.
the talent some people have amazes me.

B9
25-12-2007, 04:04
Art ? explain it to me please

SA
25-12-2007, 04:08
Art ? explain it to me please

Example 1 (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=340781)


Example 2 (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=345873)

etc...

B9
25-12-2007, 04:11
That was vaguely funny., in a non specific way :D

spork
25-12-2007, 04:34
I think a sub art forum in SO would be a great idea and then maybe give it some time and see if it generates enough traffic to become its own forum kind of how NEMD became a forum by itself.

SA
25-12-2007, 04:45
I'd be all for an Arts sub-forum, spork (your avatar is seriously tickling my funny bone atm http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k196/bluelightpics/smileys/toothy.gif), even though it would steal much of SO's current content, much like SciTech did before. I'm game, but there has to be interest first, leading to growth and development, not the other way around, IMO.

blissfulMenace
25-12-2007, 18:30
well obviously we'd clean up SO and refocus it

and the reason the steam keeps dying off is because were not doing anything with it.. i mean were building up all this energy for something to happen and then nothing happens..

people feel like its a futile effort because the mods stop mentioning anything about it and nothing ever happens. At the very least we could start with an art subforum and see if it builds; if it does we can create a full fledged forum.

the gallery sucks and is full of mostly drug photos with no real focus, the commenting system sucks, it has no potential for competitions or any real discussion.

i also feel like all the art threads that sit up top are detracting from the idea of second opinion.. i mean second opinion is for just that, second opinions, and i think photography competitions kinda fit into a grey area as far as that goes.

also it would make it a ton easier to go back and see the history of things such as the photo comp without reading everyones threads on "do my feet stink?"

Slay
25-12-2007, 18:41
it'd be awesome if they open such a forum imo. also it would be nice if the art forum looks like the gallery, easy to browse pics:) oh what if people start to send there nude pics or something lol :):)

animal_cookie
25-12-2007, 18:49
there was an art forum, it was called visual and performing arts. it was the precursor to film and television. ask ego_loss about it ;)

blissfulMenace
25-12-2007, 20:27
Slay: of course we would moderate it in some form, nude pics are for the lounge unless they have specific artistic merit

it seems to me if visual and performing arts managed to turn into film and television that it should have split allowing visual arts to have a home themselves

on a second note if anyone wants to try this i'd be more than willing to help get it going

maybe it could be a xmas present/new years resolution to all of our hopeful blers?

animal_cookie
25-12-2007, 23:23
when VPA was turned into F&T, people figured the gallery could host most of the visual part of the forum. there are two art categories in the gallery where people can upload their work.

blissfulMenace
26-12-2007, 02:03
lets face it tho, the gallery sucks and has turned into a disorganized hosting area for most people...

there is no real contribution to people's art once it is uploaded and nowhere in it is there a place to discuss other art not done by our members and such

thujone
26-12-2007, 02:37
i pretty much said what you said in the thread SA linked... and i was pretty much told that the last attempt failed and in light of that there needs to be an unattainable level of interest for another attempt to be made.

i say unattainable as most of the people who would contribute to an arts subforum aren't sharing content right now because they would be required to come up with some thought-provoking shit to tack onto an image or the thread is locked and op refered to journal for starting a thread with a post lacking a question mark

swilow
26-12-2007, 02:38
Hmm, art being such a broad term, I could see this forum getting rather strange. What if my art was constantly posting the words indeed or sumthing? I like the idea though, but I think general art 'submissions' are kinda spread across the board- at least in PD we have a psychedelic poetry/art thread because everyone wants to draw and post their hallucinations....which is fanatastic and is one of my favored threads.

Either way, its a very good idea, needs a bit of threashng out though.

B9
26-12-2007, 02:40
I could see this forum getting rather strange

*Votes for it unhesitatingly.*

thujone
26-12-2007, 02:45
Hmm, art being such a broad term, I could see this forum getting rather strange. What if my art was constantly posting the words indeed or sumthing? I like the idea though, but I think general art 'submissions' are kinda spread across the board- at least in PD we have a psychedelic poetry/art thread because everyone wants to draw and post their hallucinations....which is fanatastic and is one of my favored threads.

Either way, its a very good idea, needs a bit of threashng out though.


now that sounds like a great idea! hmm makes me wonder if cd could benefit from some sort of art thread

blissfulMenace
26-12-2007, 02:58
well we could at least start by moving the photography competition thread over there, and that would be a base for traffic.

there is a huge cult following in that thread and hardly does anyone respond with indeed and such..

usually it involved constructive criticism on a photograph, or a question as to how it was taken. so it might get a tad ecclectic but with mods who care and pay attention everyone will quickly learn the ropes on what is acceptable and what isnt.

i say at the very least we set this up and test it out.. i mean whats the worst that could happen?

are we afraid of failure? i say we pick some mods and shoot for the stars!

DG
26-12-2007, 03:42
I would LOVE to have an art discussion forum as a sub-area in SO. Its crowded with art contests imo.

blissfulMenace
26-12-2007, 17:55
i just noticed that no admins have put their input on this.. and theyre rather important... so i was wondering whether or not you guys were going to poke your head out and shout

euphoricnod
26-12-2007, 18:09
My girlfriend has brought up the question of "Why no art forum?" more than a few times. I'd never go in there but I'm sure a few other BLrs would.

blissfulMenace
27-12-2007, 06:22
just so you know, im not going to let this go until i hear some input from the people above who matter...

alasdairm
27-12-2007, 07:27
bear in mind that it is the holiday season and people's priorities may lie elsewhere right now.

alasdair

felix
27-12-2007, 08:09
just so you know, im not going to let this go until i hear some input from the people above who matter...
you forgot to stamp your feet. ;)

as SA has linked to, there has been plenty of discussion about this in the past, but unfortunately not much action. and by that i mean by all the people clamouring for it. SO is by no means overwhelmed by arty threads at the moment. :\

blissfulMenace
27-12-2007, 09:32
i bet if you make a poll most bl'ers would love to see it, i mean afterall we are a group of artistic druggies are we not.

and the reason the discussion about it dies out is because, as i did, everyone figures its a futile effort as no movement comes from it.

a buddy of mine had a good idea, what if we just change words to "words and images"

Miss Peks
27-12-2007, 14:28
I might have an unpopular opinion about this, but personally I think that if we were to have a sub forum for art somewhere (second opinion atm) then I think it would be much better suited with words. Yes it would need some major work happening before we could get it organised, but they're both creative topics and I think they're better suited together (even if it's just link wise).

Second opinion to me is asking about practical advice and sometimes personal advice as well. I know there's some art threads in there atm, but to me they don't mix. Anyway I think an art forum would be great, but like last time I'm not sure it would generate enough traffic. :\


a buddy of mine had a good idea, what if we just change words to "words and images"
Ahh I promise I didn't see that until after I posted. Should probably learn to read everything before I open up my big mouth. The only issue is that it would probably be more than just images.

SA
27-12-2007, 15:25
and the reason the discussion about it dies out is because, as i did, everyone figures its a futile effort as no movement comes from it.
Highways are built to accommodate traffic, not the reverse.


a buddy of mine had a good idea, what if we just change words to "words and images"
An arts forum, if it is as important as it is made out to be (and I myself also believe it is), has to exist on its own merits, IMO, not piggyback another, which is what it's doing now anyway. I agree though that it would fit better within the Music-Words-Film grouping.

blissfulMenace
27-12-2007, 17:10
An arts forum, if it is as important as it is made out to be (and I myself also believe it is), has to exist on its own merits, IMO, not piggyback another, which is what it's doing now anyway. I agree though that it would fit better within the Music-Words-Film grouping.
that is exactly why i believe we need to rid SO of the burden of all the art threads that take up the first page

SA
27-12-2007, 17:14
We don't consider it a burden. ;)

But I'm with you on the rest of the idea.

alasdairm
27-12-2007, 19:13
i bet if you make a poll most bl'ers would love to see it...
did you read the previous discussion thread? from the previous discussion:

with respect, it's the easiest thing in the world to click a button which says "i'd participate in an art forum".

in an attempt to put this in perspective i had a look at the number of art-related threads started in second opinion by those in this thread who are in support of such a forum (about 14 posters). there are 5000 threads in second opinion right now and i found 6.

i guess my point is that if the people in this thread arguing for such a forum aren't starting art-related threads, who's to say anybody will?
so it's been just under a week since this discussion faded out and, as far as i can tell, there's been only one new art-oriented thread started in second opinion...

if each of the 31 people who voted for a new forum had bothered to start just one thread each, i might think there was something to the poll but, as it stands, to me it's just meaningless...these points are not intended to stifle discussion. rather, to show that a poll is really not that helpful in isolation.

alasdair

Miss Peks
27-12-2007, 19:47
Originally Posted by alasdairm
with respect, it's the easiest thing in the world to click a button which says "i'd participate in an art forum".

in an attempt to put this in perspective i had a look at the number of art-related threads started in second opinion by those in this thread who are in support of such a forum (about 14 posters). there are 5000 threads in second opinion right now and i found 6.

i guess my point is that if the people in this thread arguing for such a forum aren't starting art-related threads, who's to say anybody will?
It pains me to say this, but you're absolutely right.

As has been proven on BL time and time again everyone will get excited about the prospect of an art forum. Then what happens is that they start campaining for it, the forum opens up and the traffic dwindles down to almost nothing (bit like EADD Events). Personally I'd like to see one here, but perhaps there's something else that could be worked on instead that would last longer. Feel free to prove me wrong though.

blissfulMenace
27-12-2007, 20:04
even if traffic is low i dont understand what the problem is in opening up an art forum and seeing how much traffic we can filter through it...

at the very least it will give a real home for the competitions instead of dirtying up the main page of SO

alasdairm
27-12-2007, 20:14
we can't just create a forum every time somebody says "it would be cool to have a new forum". there has to be a reasonable level of demand and somebody has to demonstrate that demand merits a separate forum.

it's not clear that the current crop of art-related threads are 'dirtying the main so page - that's a matter of opinion. one other poster here (an so mod) says they're no trouble at all.

currently in so there are 8 (out of 40) art-related threads on the front page. that's only 20% and, even in mlb, that's a pretty poor batting average :)

bluelight used to have an 'art' forum and it died (in traffic terms). why would a new forum succeed where the previous one failed?

alasdair

animal_cookie
27-12-2007, 20:46
^do you think it was because the scope of VPA was too broad? i never really frequented the forum, but i could see how art threads would get lost amongst tv and movie discussion.

swilow
27-12-2007, 22:28
a buddy of mine had a good idea, what if we just change words to "words and images"

Art isn't just images though of course. Unless you were to propose a purely visual arts forum. I do suspect that that would get a lot of traffic in the end.

TheLoveBandit
28-12-2007, 06:27
Hi there. I'm an admin, and I'll be happy to share my thoughts, though I only speak for myself, and not all the admins :)

As ali pointed out - holidays are among us (watchout, one might get you). I, myself, am in the middle of a 2 week jaunt to visit family and such, so online time is limited. But that isn't to say such questions or ideas aren't worth commenting upon.

I'd have to agree with several of the experienced naysayers primarily based on the failure of past efforts, the fact that the content currently has a home (SO, while perhaps not ideal, does accommodate), and as ali pointed out a poll is pointless when contribution and content is what's required to show a need for such a forum. I would commend SA for his leadership in the photo contests in SO over the past few months, and while I sometimes think they muck the forum a bit (I concede it isn't a perfect home), I doubt those threads would survive as well if it weren't for the effort of a select few (I'm thinking of BA during the earlier trials and SA over the past several months). Yes, there are a lot of people participating, and contributing, but even in the latest contest efforts were made to draw in other people to vote as the number of entries nearly matched the number of people with interest :\

The adage remains - show the content has overrun or at least halved a forum's discussions and it will have earned it's own forum, IMO. Right now, that's not the case.

One counterpoint I'll throw out for consideration is that since the previous administration left, all we've done is grow - adding S&T and S&G and DS for example. Previous admins looked harder at forums and chose to merge them or kill them off entirely should traffic not be deemed heavy enough to warrant a seperate forum. Perhaps it is time to give such a look again - though nobody wants to be the bad guy and say 'hey, we're closing your forum' :\ It's easier to grant people's requests than it is to kill their dream because it didn't live up to expectations. But we don't want to grow willy-nilly and will put a lot of discussion and review into such a decision before adding more forums. The best you can do to help your cause, as has been repeated several times, is to have those who want the forum show the need for it by creating the threads, the discussions, the content. Then we've got no reason to say no.

SA
28-12-2007, 07:28
i bet if you make a poll most bl'ers would love to see it
You mean like this (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=294370)? A poll is simply an opinion. The fervour we see again and again in people's desire to see an arts forum is simply intent. Intent plus opinion does not always translate into content. In fact, in the case of arts content, it rarely seems to be the case.


currently in so there are 8 (out of 40) art-related threads on the front page. that's only 20% and, even in mlb, that's a pretty poor batting average
Seven out of those threads are related to the photo contest and one related to the 2-d art contest (which has withered away already). That makes the picture of averages an even sadder one. A photo contest does not an arts forum make. It was a fantastic idea by BA and I am more than happy to upkeep it (and enjoy doing so), and it can certainly serve as a building block for an arts forum. Let's face it though, it's the only block right now.

I'll keep backing the idea of an arts forum. Once again, we need the traffic to build the highway. The way I see it, we're quite a ways off yet.

... or whatever TLB said. =D

vibr8tor
28-12-2007, 09:28
I might have an unpopular opinion about this, but personally I think that if we were to have a sub forum for art somewhere (second opinion atm) then I think it would be much better suited with words. Yes it would need some major work happening before we could get it organised, but they're both creative topics and I think they're better suited together (even if it's just link wise).

Second opinion to me is asking about practical advice and sometimes personal advice as well. I know there's some art threads in there atm, but to me they don't mix.


I agree with that part of your post. I'm all for giving it a try; I know nothing about art and feel rather worthless as a S.O. mod at times, as a result, because of the high volume of art-related posts. I'd really love to see it given a (second sort of) chance.

blissfulMenace
28-12-2007, 10:00
i suppose i do see the points you guys are all making, i just dont see what the problem is in making a subforum in SO and seeing how it does..

at the very least if it doesnt work out then there will be an archive of the photo comptetitions and the art discussion thread

it also seems to me that although only 20% of the threads are art related that there could be 8 more threads that are specific to second opinion that could be seen on the first page by the public.

essentially my point is, even without demand for such a forum it would increase the organization overall and in the end allow even a small cult following to continue their journey's in their own designated forum rather than cluttering a forum to which they dont truly belong

i mean the music forums dont get too much attention or traffic, but they still exist dont they?

SA
28-12-2007, 17:03
Creating Arts as a sub-forum of SO has its pluses and minuses, IMO.

On the plus side, it gives Arts a home. BL currently does not show sub-forums on the main page, so a simple change would have to be done behind the scenes to make just this one sub-forum show up on the main page like so (while keeping the rest off; which opens a can of worms in itself):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/sillyalien/SO/artssub2.gif

I could assist the admins/engineers, if need be, in making the code change (its really simple).

Visibility is key in bringing people to the right venue.

The down side is that once the threads are migrated to this separate forum, it may become more evident how infrequently arts topics are actually started. The photo contest being the only exception. If long term traffic warrants it, the sub-forum could be upgraded to a full forum.

Continuing on, once the sub-forum is created, should it still be made a sub-forum of SO, or should it be moved with the music/words/film group, where it more logically belongs? Which of those forums would it best be a sub-forum of?

The sub-forum idea is a more viable idea than the fully fledged forum one, IMO, and may appeal to admins a bit better that way. It still opens a whole bunch of questions, as you can see, the answers to which might not please everyone.

vibr8tor
28-12-2007, 18:05
I think if it's a sub-forum, it should be one of a more appropriate main topic, as mentioned by others. That way, if it doesn't generate enough traffic and ends up needing merged, it could be more appropriately combined with an art-related category (such as words) and just given a newer and more inclusive title. Would the Forum Jump drop down include it as a sub, cuz that gets used a lot (the thing in the lower right corner)...

vibr8tor
28-12-2007, 18:13
but honestly, if poetry justifies its own forum, I really think that once it is started and catches on, an art/photography forum will definitely find its' share of regulars. Right now in S/O, the photo and art threads are mainly contest related, but there is no reason to think it will stay that way once there is a proper home for that stuff. I rarely contribute to the photo contests because there are so many professional caliber participants, but I can see a lot of people contributing to general photo topics. Even threads like the pet pic one in the lounge could be moved, since it isn't such a social discussion and more of a sharing topic.

I was going to start a photo advice thread in S/O, where novice camera owners could post a pic and ask the more experienced people here for setting advice and all, but I'm going to wait and see how this pans out. It would be a good kick-off thread if a new forum is generated, as people will need to help fill it up initially.

SA
28-12-2007, 19:42
Would the Forum Jump drop down include it as a sub, cuz that gets used a lot (the thing in the lower right corner)...
Yes, it can be easily set to be included in the forum-jump menu, vibby. Admin call.

SA
28-12-2007, 19:47
I was going to start a photo advice thread in S/O, where novice camera owners could post a pic and ask the more experienced people here for setting advice and all, but I'm going to wait and see how this pans out. It would be a good kick-off thread if a new forum is generated, as people will need to help fill it up initially.
I remember you mentioning that,vibby. Great idea and should help generate some decent traffic.

QuestionEverything
28-12-2007, 20:06
Hi all. :) Having some free time the last week or so since being on break I've been peeking my head in now and then.

As most of you know I would absolutely love to have an arts forum here and have previously made efforts when my life allowed the extra time to generate some other arts related traffic and discussion. That said, I have to agree that the traffic just isn't there right now. Out of everyone that said they would support and post in an art forum, only a handful actually did, and that is what continues to be the problem as far as I see it.

It even seems to me that some of the 'demand' for an arts forum is now from people that don't like the contest threads in SO rather than those that actually support a new forum. There are some that feel they 'clutter' SO. I've never viewed it that way, and still don't, but several members have mentioned it.

Again, this alone does not warrant the creation of a new forum to house those threads, I'm just throwing my own observations/experience/feedback out there.

Hope everyone is having a great holiday season.<3

blissfulMenace
28-12-2007, 21:04
well i think the best way to generate traffic would be to give people the opportunity.. if i had a question about art right now it wouldnt get posted because i wouldnt know where to put it.

common sense says it doesnt belong to SO if im asking for art advice or i want to discuss banksy.. as ive said before, worst comes to worst this subforum fails; its not like were going to die as a whole if it does

felix
28-12-2007, 22:57
well i think the best way to generate traffic would be to give people the opportunity.. if i had a question about art right now it wouldnt get posted because i wouldnt know where to put it.
i'm sorry, but that made me LOL. there's one question that's GUARANTEED not to get much traffic. ;)

you already have the opportunity to post it in SO. everyone knows SO is the de facto 'Art' discussion forum, so just go for it.

at the risk of being lynched - and as much as i love it - the Sci Tech forum hasn't exactly set the world on fire. i suspect a dedicated art forum would attract even less traffic. (no offence to anyone.) :)

the more arty threads you and everyone else posts (and responds to), the more chance there is of this ever happening.

[not that i have a say in this at all, just giving you my humble opinion and advice <3]

AmorRoark
28-12-2007, 23:52
I'm not sold on either direction really but I wanted to express some things that were running through my mind:

When I first joined bluelight back in the day I really liked the VPA forum. I thought the discussion, though limited, was solid, had depth and created a sense of community.

I wasn't privy to the reasons why VPA was shut down and thus have a limited perspective. I'm not sure how the traffic really was once these decisions were made as I might have dropped off from regularing the forum once I moved onto other forums that I continue to regular today. I just don't remember fully.

That said, VPA is one of the reasons I stuck around bluelight. I think its in bluelight's best interest to try and keep the most quality bluelighters on the site. I don't think I'm alone when I say that I think the number of quality posters dropping off is disconcerning. Creating what could be considered as an intellectual community such as an arts forum might be a step in keeping people on board.

Also, just because a forum doesn't have a large amount of traffic doesn't mean the discussion isn't worthwhile IMO. There's a difference between almost zero discussion and sparse but in-depth and thoughtful discussion. The Arts forum might just be an example of quality>quantity on bluelight.

I guess what I'm arguing is that if creating an arts forum caused for quality posters to find it, and stick around it might not be such a terrible idea. Personally, I'd rather see 5 zorns stick around than 500 < - enter any number of bluelighters here - > s.

Of course I can't really argue anything without also being wishwashy so I'll also point out that I'm not sure SO isn't already creating this community or drive for quality bluelighters in its art threads. What's more, I'm not really selling the idea that we should do pursuits with the hope of achieving the result I conjured. I'm just saying what happened for me, and I don't think my experience is so very unique. :)