PDA

View Full Version : Buprenorphine + Hydroxyzine: The new heroin substitute?



Pages : [1] 2

Chemethist
15-10-2007, 10:56
Some opiates are not as stong as others. But there are certain anti-histamines that can GREATLY increase the euphoria and opiate effects of certain opoids.


Back in the day Pentazocine (a synthetikal opoid analgesic) was used in combination with the anti-histamine Tripelennamine to produce a euphoric sensation compared to heroin.


Well after that, Tripelennamine was taken off the market and Pentazocine was combine with nalaxone, and this pretty much took away the abuse..


But now apparently there is a new combination that works just as great, maybe even better... Both can be found if you know where to look...

Buprenorphine (which is a very potent analgesic) can be found in injectable preperations and in pill form, either with or without nalaxone.

From what swim hears Hydroxyzine (anti-histamine) which if you look on wikipedia clearly states that it is very good at boosting narcotic opiates. Anyways swim hears that 50mg of this along with a 200-400 micrograms of Buprenorphine will give a GREAT powerful opiate effect.

wesmdow
15-10-2007, 11:05
is hydroxyzine scheduled?

Chemethist
15-10-2007, 11:10
ive found its very very available and cheap via online pharmacies, not sure how sources are suppose to be protected around here, but its around 18 dollars for 30 pills. not too bad and not hard to find.

wesmdow
15-10-2007, 11:12
how much better is it than combining bupe with, say, diphenhydramine?

also, ive heard that adding a drug like clonadine to the mix only further improves it.

another question for you, since youre getting high on bupe-- why not use this mixture with good ole H? im sure anything bupe can do h can do better.......

Chemethist
15-10-2007, 11:22
well H is certainly a big harder to get and more expensive, i got 30 .2mg temgesic pills for about 40 bucks which is only 2 good bags of H.

Trying to find a reasonable substitute thats eas to get and cheap.

Not sure what Diphenhydramine would do, i do know that certain anti-histamines are better for potentiating opiates. Hydroxyzine is a piperazine which is suppose to give a great addition to opiates.

i havent tried the combo yet, the temgesics are still on there way. but just was wondering if anyone had tried it.

Or perhaps valium or lorazepam can be used to make the bupe better

ifonly
15-10-2007, 11:50
bupe + promethazine, anybody got experience with this?

TheodoreRoosevelt
15-10-2007, 12:26
i got 30 .2mg temgesic pills for about 40 bucks

Is this with or without insurance? Did you have to sign up to a clinic, which you have to pay a premium of some sort to?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there are no 'reasonable' substitutes to heroin. It's an extremely inelastic good, which is why you here stories so often of addicts committing heinous crimes for drug-money and regularly committing petty crimes to support a habit.

If insulin was made illegal, you would hear of stories of diabetics committing the same crimes and acting the same as heroin addicts to get it.

If you have any basic understanding of economics, you'll really find this interesting (scroll to Table 4 at the bottom of the PDF):
http://www.ub.es/ere/cafeseminari/texto/submissionJOEP102004complete.pdf

The cross-price elasticity of heroin with other drugs is virtually non-existent. To all those with little knowledge of economics, what it basically means is that the price fluctuations in other drugs has little impact on the demand for heroin. In other words, there are no reasonable substitutes for heroin.

On a side note, anyone know of some good studies in regards to CPE and illicit drugs?This one isn't too comprehensive but should be simple enough for people here to generally follow :)

edit: hm through further review of the study, i couldn't find much info in regards to cross-price elasticity of heroin with other opiates/opioids, and couldn't find any such studies online. Apparently the people running these studies think all drugs are the same, even this study had some strange focus of the relationship between heroin and cocaine with heroin and cocaine addicts. Regardless, I'd still say my point stands true - the CPE is so low (actually, negative on all except valium) on the few drugs that are listed I can't imagine a significantly high number with other opiates/opioids.

Chemethist
15-10-2007, 13:52
well the connection to heroin was not meant to be taken as a literal one-on-one only.

when i say heroin i meant a typical strong opiate.

melange
15-10-2007, 14:15
i would ask jason crest i am sure he can shed some light on the subject

TDogUSA
15-10-2007, 20:38
im on suboxone, clonidine, and i occasionally take 50mg of benadryl and that produces a good nod sometimes, if you don't have any tolerance to benadryl. i have to take breaks from benadryl sometimes to lower my tolerance. i have tried many anti-histamines and benadryl seems to work best with opiates, not sure if ive mixed opiates with hydroxyzine. if u cant get hydroxyzine, wiki says that dramamine II and other OTC drugs have very similar effects to hydroxyzine.

wesmdow
15-10-2007, 20:57
definitely add a benzo-- and i bet promethazyn would work as a kickass anti histimine

Adrenochrome
15-10-2007, 21:28
i can attest to hydroxyzine's lagitness, i have sum right now cause I went to the Dr cause I got poison oak on my leg

phrozen
15-10-2007, 21:33
is hydroxyzine scheduled?

I don't think it's scheduled, but I believe it is RX only in the US.


Shootin' all these pills is dangerous. Mmmkay...

TheodoreRoosevelt
15-10-2007, 23:05
well the connection to heroin was not meant to be taken as a literal one-on-one only.

when i say heroin i meant a typical strong opiate.

Drugs in general are inelastic goods, and it seems the 'harder' the drug is, the more inelastic the good becomes.

But heroin had a negative cross-price elasticity index with almost all other drugs, moreso than any other drug. Valium is the only drug that showed up to have any positive substitution effect, but it was so small it would easily be overcome by any income effect.

The study didn't include other opiates but I can't imagine that with heroin, they far as any decent substitute and I'd be suprised if the index was any higher than .5 with any of them.

Boiling in Acid
15-10-2007, 23:16
yes hydroxyzine gotta be sheduled, it's used for anxiety too (& they even give it in rehab). though i never took it with opiates or at reasonable dose at all to tell what it does...

imo diphenhydramine is very good to potentiate opiates (& it gives some very dirty clumsy high by itself which goes great with the opiate high) a high dose of codeine combined with a high dose of diphenhydramine feels almost like heroin to me...

the best downer high i could get was opiate+diphenhydramine+benzo.

jasoncrest
16-10-2007, 02:12
Hydroxyzine is RX-only, when Diphenhydramine just do the same and is OTC....

BTW I agree, taking an Opioid such as Bupe with an antihistamine (IVed at the same time) will make the high MUCH stronger.

It still won't compare to heroin though; but will make for a better substitute.


definitely add a benzo-- and i bet promethazyn would work as a kickass anti histimine

Yes adding a benzo to the mix make sit even better... Not everyone has access to a benzo that's worth shooting though....

Promethazine is good, but not much better than Diphenhydramine, which is easier to get in the US.



the best downer high i could get was opiate+diphenhydramine+benzo.

Yes it's my favorite high.
I prefer the IV opiate+benzo+antihistamine combo over IV speeball or MDMA crystals.....

Chemethist
16-10-2007, 02:25
what are the best Benzos to shoot? Im assuming Diazepam (valium) which is easy to get also for some.

would diazepam + buprenorphine IV be a good mix?

jasoncrest
16-10-2007, 19:57
what are the best Benzos to shoot? Im assuming Diazepam (valium) which is easy to get also for some.

would diazepam + buprenorphine IV be a good mix?

Diazepam is one of the most useless and worthless benzo to shoot.
It gives no rush, the high is not stronger... Worthless.

The best benzos to shoot are Midazolam and Loprazolam.

Followed by all the triazolo benzos that are potent (only a few mgs needed to produce a strong effect): Brotizolam, Triazolam, Estazolam....
(some -pam benzos may be worth too: Lormetazepam, Flurazepam, Flunitrazepam)

-

If you want to take Bupe in a IV combo, take it with an antihistamine, an take the benzo orally on top.

Chemethist
16-10-2007, 20:09
okay lorazepam seems very strong, i remember taking half of a milligram and being nearly knocked out.

there are a few over the counter anti-histamines, one of them is Chlorpheniramine maleate, and the other is of course Diphenhydramine, ive never shot either and am wondering which would be best...

So far im getting great advice tho, such as take a benzo orally and then IV Buprenorphine + antihistamine.

v4lium
16-10-2007, 20:15
The only thing close to heroin is ketobemidone.

thugpassion
16-10-2007, 20:22
Buprenorphine is never coming close to good Heroin, nomatter what you take with it.

sixpartseven
16-10-2007, 21:30
so whats the best bupe to diphenhydramine ratio? and is this a useless idea for people on suboxone maintenence? I know jasoncrest does it daily, so Id assume not.

TDogUSA
16-10-2007, 21:36
Diazepam is one of the most useless and worthless benzo to shoot.
It gives no rush, the high is not stronger... Worthless.

The best benzos to shoot are Midazolam and Loprazolam.

Followed by all the triazolo benzos that are potent (only a few mgs needed to produce a strong effect): Brotizolam, Triazolam, Estazolam....
(some -pam benzos may be worth too: Lormetazepam, Flurazepam, Flunitrazepam)

-

If you want to take Bupe in a IV combo, take it with an antihistamine, an take the benzo orally on top.

"Loprazolam"? Do you mean Lorazepam (Ativan) or is there a benzo "Loprazolam"?

phrozen
16-10-2007, 22:34
^
I think there is a "loprazolam," but I've never heard of it being available in the US.

jasoncrest
18-10-2007, 15:19
there are a few over the counter anti-histamines, one of them is Chlorpheniramine maleate, and the other is of course Diphenhydramine, ive never shot either and am wondering which would be best...

In the US, the only worthwhile antihistamine to shoot is Diphenhydramine.
Chlorpheniramine sucks (no rush).


so whats the best bupe to diphenhydramine ratio? and is this a useless idea for people on suboxone maintenence? I know jasoncrest does it daily, so Id assume not.

37,5mg to 50mg Diphenhydramine with the amount of Bupe you usually shoot....
37,5mg if you start, and 50mg when you start to get a tolerance to it.
Never take more than 150mg Diphnhydramine in a day, or you will get anticholinergic dysphoria.

It's not a problem when you're on Bupe maintenance, on the opposite, it's better, cause when you're on maintenance, you have a high Bupe tolerance, and that's when you NEED Diphenhydramine to get high on Bupe.....



"Loprazolam"? Do you mean Lorazepam (Ativan) or is there a benzo "Loprazolam"?

I mean Loprazolam, not Lorazepam.
Loprazolam is an hypnotic benzo available in Europe, very close to Midazolam, and water-soluble.
One of the best high ever....

center
18-10-2007, 15:43
OK. I don't me to be a son of a bitch. I'm sick of asking this question without a straight answer:

Why, if you're on an opiate treatment are you trying to potentiate it? I thought the idea was to get you away from the 'necessary' evil that becomes a daily chore if you're addicted?

Isn't trying to potentiate buprenorphine when you're attempting to quit...like trying to scrape your skin and then put a nicotine patch on?

It doesn't really sound all that helpful.

Then again, I wouldn't know. So chea.

TDogUSA
18-10-2007, 15:48
because we are addicts, and the "call" of the high can be too strong sometimes, so we give in and start looking for ways to get high

center
18-10-2007, 15:52
OK. So buprenorphine isn't really a failsafe way to quit?

What does it do exactly for you?

I took suboxone once, two years ago. Four mg. I vomitted and couldn't walk for two days.

!!

TDogUSA
18-10-2007, 16:06
there is no failsafe way to quit. addicts are always at risk for relapse, for the rest of their lives. suboxone has helped a lot of people stop using, but it doesnt help everybody. for me personally, suboxone makes me feel a little more "normal" and less anxious and less depressed. it also helps lessen cravings for other opiates. for my current situation, im not craving drugs, im just extremely miserable and looking for new ways to get off. people are now saying IVing suboxone(bupe) with benadryl can give you a nice feeling, but i have yet to try it.
also, there is a percentage of people who get sick (vomit) when taking suboxone. you see it in detox a lot. im not sure if its a first time thing only for them or if they need to take less or just cant take any at all.

center
18-10-2007, 16:08
I'll never take it again.

Man, it was like a day before my birthday. Ended up laying in bed with a trashcan. Yeah! Put your party hat on.

sixpartseven
18-10-2007, 19:57
^ just because we are on bupe doesnt mean we havent quit yet. The way I see it is when I was first on suboxone, I was in the process of quitting heroin and after a while, once I became used to the thought of not using heroin anymore and I had adjusted my life back to where it was before I became dependant upon heroin, then I had quit heroin. Now Im just maintaining myself with suboxone. To be honest, I could stop taking suboxone anytime I want. I dont need it in the way I needed it before. Its not something I rely on, its simply a tool I use to help me with my day to day life, so I dont see anything wrong with potentiating it to get a little bit more out of it than I normally do.

Also, I think when you read potentiation of buprenorphine, you might think its making it loads more powerful. Its not. Its very minimal what it does, but its still a subtle reminder of that feeling we gave up.

center
18-10-2007, 20:00
^ That's what I figured responsible use of the medication to be.

A friend of mine shot dope under twenty times, after the fifth time he was actually complaining about not having withdrawals, like it was glamourous. He went on bupe so he could shoot it and get an opioid perscribed to him.

Rather ridiculous. That's what I consider NOT RESPONSIBLE USE.

sixpartseven
18-10-2007, 20:05
^ definitely. I know someone where Im from that went on it after sniffing heroin once or twice a day for maybe a month, and shooting it one time. 16mg a day too. Needless to say, they sold them for dope money. I dont think they ever used a single pill.

EDIT - i didnt mean they were sniffing/shooting suboxone, I meant heroin. I dont think they have ever even taken suboxone.

center
18-10-2007, 20:30
Well...that's not good. None of it's good.

I just can't believe how tragic it can get.

Chemethist
18-10-2007, 21:41
center, i think 4mg is way to much..

personally i dont plan on IVing more than .4mg at one time. The drug is very good im told in small amounts but at higher doses its better for severe addicts who have a huge tolerance.

.2-.4mg injections... i cant believe people would actually take 10 times that much.

TheodoreRoosevelt
19-10-2007, 02:32
Did anyone understand what I said in my post in regards to cross-price elasticity and whatnot? If people don't understand those concepts maybe I'll be a little more rudimentary in my posts ;/

I do think it's interesting though, any economists out there, and what's your take on heroin and it's possible substitutes?

center
19-10-2007, 03:26
I'm no economist, but if there was a drastic change in the price of oxycodone or production of them, or by fluke legalization...

I'd surely say you have a competitor.

I didn't read your post on this. I don't go looking for you, unlike you to me.

smackem
19-10-2007, 09:33
Back in the dry heroin days of 1960-50, junkies in chicago used to IV talwin and temezapam. Called em blues and temmazies. I read about it in a research paper, so I didn't get a description beyond 'heroin-like rush'.

TDogUSA
19-10-2007, 14:29
Try taking a few fioricet, waiting about a half hour (give or take), then take 2 - 4 mg suboxone sublingually. IME, it feels pretty good and makes the suboxone's feelings (how ever little or almost non-existant that feeling may be for you) last longer. And I say 2 - 4 mg of suboxone because I have tried more with this combo and it doesnt seem to work as well, even if you are taking a lot more than 4mg of it like I am. let me know how this works for ya.

MethaContin
19-10-2007, 15:31
yes hydroxyzine gotta be sheduled, it's used for anxiety too (& they even give it in rehab). though i never took it with opiates or at reasonable dose at all to tell what it does...

imo diphenhydramine is very good to potentiate opiates (& it gives some very dirty clumsy high by itself which goes great with the opiate high) a high dose of codeine combined with a high dose of diphenhydramine feels almost like heroin to me...

the best downer high i could get was opiate+diphenhydramine+benzo.

ITS NOT SCHEDULED THAT IS WHY THEY USE IT IN REHAB LOL

MethaContin
19-10-2007, 15:32
Its Called Atarax and GREATLY HELPS WITH VOMITING, I used to have to go GET IM (Intramuscular) SHOTS ALL OF THE TIME..............

sixpartseven
19-10-2007, 17:01
^ maybe he meant prescription only?

TheodoreRoosevelt
19-10-2007, 18:14
I didn't read your post on this. I don't go looking for you, unlike you to me.

I generally read every post in the thread. Is that why almost every time you post it makes no sense and isn't relevant at all? Go slit kkthxbye.


but if there was a drastic change in the price of oxycodone or production of them, or by fluke legalization...

Actually my argument that if there was a drastic change in the price of oxycodone, or any drug, there WOULDNT be a big change in regards to the quantity demanded of heroin. I was saying that oxycodone, among other drugs, are not found to be substitutes at all. The study I linked also supports this claim.

This is called the "Cross-Price Elasticity", what a 1% change in PRICEx will do to the QUANTITYy. Heroin has no substitutes, which is supported in the findings that the CPE of heroin to many other drugs is either:

A) Extremely low, aka statistically carries no relationship
B) Negative, meaning there is a complementary relationship to some degree

HYDRO_CHRONIC
19-10-2007, 18:30
man i dont see bupe giving me any good affects ,last time i shot it i felt nothing ,cept i could NOT sleep for 2 days sucked balls

mikemikemike
20-10-2007, 02:38
Some opiates are not as stong as others. But there are certain anti-histamines that can GREATLY increase the euphoria and opiate effects of certain opoids.


Back in the day Pentazocine (a synthetikal opoid analgesic) was used in combination with the anti-histamine Tripelennamine to produce a euphoric sensation compared to heroin.


Well after that, Tripelennamine was taken off the market and Pentazocine was combine with nalaxone, and this pretty much took away the abuse..


But now apparently there is a new combination that works just as great, maybe even better... Both can be found if you know where to look...

Buprenorphine (which is a very potent analgesic) can be found in injectable preperations and in pill form, either with or without nalaxone.

From what swim hears Hydroxyzine (anti-histamine) which if you look on wikipedia clearly states that it is very good at boosting narcotic opiates. Anyways swim hears that 50mg of this along with a 200-400 micrograms of Buprenorphine will give a GREAT powerful opiate effect.


200-400 mcg? So what would 8mgs do? I can't find less than 2 mg anywhere.

jasoncrest
20-10-2007, 15:42
Why, if you're on an opiate treatment are you trying to potentiate it? I thought the idea was to get you away from the 'necessary' evil that becomes a daily chore if you're addicted?

Isn't trying to potentiate buprenorphine when you're attempting to quit...like trying to scrape your skin and then put a nicotine patch on?


You're using Buprenorphine in order to stop using illegal drugs and replace it with a legal one.
When you're on Bupe, you're in a much better situation because you don't have to worry about scoring, not getting your dope, using illegal drugs, etc...
That's what bupe is for.

That doesn't mean that you should stop wanting to get high when you're on Bupe.
I want to stay on Bupe, cause I don't want to be illegal and want a regular supply of Opiates, but I still want to get high, so I potentiate it.



200-400 mcg? So what would 8mgs do? I can't find less than 2 mg anywhere.

Suboxone/Subutex which come in 2mg or 8mg are for addicts, people who have a high tolerance.
Buprenorphine for pain (for people with no tolerance) come in 200 mcg pills and 300 mcg/ml ampoules, and that's even too much for people with no toelrance at all.

Bupe is extremely potent.
100mcg IV will get an opiate-naive person quite high.

DexterMeth
29-04-2008, 02:53
Buprenorphine is never coming close to good Heroin, nomatter what you take with it.
a huge ass phat dose of Poppy Pod Tea? 8) ...and say 8mg klonopin?

Ham-milton
29-04-2008, 03:21
why you felt like raising this one from the dead for that, I dunno.

Anyway, the buprenorphine would obviously cover any dose of PPT, so all that matters is the clonazepam.

8mg would put most people to sleep. With bupe, possibly forever.

Phredom
29-04-2008, 08:01
I take 12mg of bupe a day( 1 and a half 8mg bupes.)
Iv been taking this for about a month. I dont even get a buzz.
I want to catch atleast one more nod in my life! is this possible on bupe? someone help me out here

DexterMeth
01-05-2008, 17:54
why you felt like raising this one from the dead for that, I dunno.

Anyway, the buprenorphine would obviously cover any dose of PPT, so all that matters is the clonazepam.

8mg would put most people to sleep. With bupe, possibly forever.

Um...because I'm right? ...and you're wrong about bupe "obviously covering any dose of PPT"..FAR from it. I've been taking 8mg of suboxone a day for almost 2 years now, along with 8mg clonazepam and, and can very easily say that even poppy SEED tea will fuck me the hell up even if I don't stop dosing with the suboxone. Sure, the high is diminished...perhaps VERY, compaired to what it would be, but no, "so all that matters is the clonazepam" is far from being a true statement. I get VERY VERY high (with the right dose) of PST...and don't even get me started about PPT....that'll blow me away. I almost prefer PPT and PST over heroin and other "stronger" opiates/iods (stronger by weight that is...and that doesn't mean shit in my book...it's all about the end effects...not how little you have to take to get high)<<<of course though for some drugs, the amount of what you have to take could become so absurdly high that it would turn out to not even be worth it.
Maybe you're partially right...i don't know. But if you're speaking from experience, you obviously didn't dose high enough with the tea...or your body chemistry just "wont let it happen"...for example, 8mg of clonazepam was never "enough to put down a horse" for me personally...even before I got it scripted and would just randomly abuse various benzos (primarily diazepam, alprazolam, and clonazepam), never using any benzo long enough to develop too much of a tolerance, if any (at times of course I had a massive tolerance, but most of the time during any given year, during the years I abused benzos, I definately did not have a tolerance). Honestly I think I UNFORTUNATELY (and then again fortunately, otherwise i'd be dead for sure from past incidents...then again, maybe i would of never gotten into those situations if I had a naturally low),...unfortunately have a VERY high NATURAL tolerance to "downers" in general...but it's really strange...(well, if you where a very knowledgable chemist/knowledge of human anatomy/how drugs affect people/etc., then I presume it wouldn't be strange at all), , how with narcotics (aka "opiates/oids"), i've always seemed to be able to "get off"(high) off MUCH MUCH lower doses compaired to the absurdly high doses of benzos and other downers...and then compairing THAT to how high/low the doses were/are for other people that use opiates and benzos. My case is definately more of a rarity...a rarity that sucks balls. When I was on methadone, I was on 265mg a day (for a few months 275mg) along with 16mg of clonazepam a day. My thought processes weren't really slowed down that much at all. People couldn't even tell that much of a difference when I switched over to 8mg of suboxone and 8mg of the clonaz. Anyways....

To the OP, to answer your question....
I've been scripted Vistaril for a few years. I used to take it daily with my suboxone...or maybe every other day..now I just take it PRN...but when I would take it with suboxone, I never noticed a better "high" then what suboxone gives me alone. I haven't gotten a refill/had any Vistaril(hydroxyzine) for months...I wouldn't mind getting my "PRN" ativan refilled too. I'll try this out (actually staying "in tune" and seeing if I notice any real difference) once I get my shit refilled. Oh, the different thing is, unlike JCrest, I have never IV'd this combo...not even suboxone on it's own...nor do I ever intend to...so perhaps that may explain the difference? Then again don't forget about how uncannyly fucked up my body's "drug regulatory system" works. :\