Lithium orotate

Anyone here know much about lithium? I started taking lithium orotate for experimental purposes a week or so ago, and yesterday after taking 2 120mg pills along with a multi-vitamin and eating some fish, I ended up vomiting it all up.

Nausea and vomiting are early signs of lithium overdose, but I felt fine immediately after finishing throwing up. I don't have health insurance so I can't really afford to get blood tests for lithium and creatinine levels or anything. What do you think the chances are of any harm coming from continuing to take 120mg/day?

Even ignoring the narrow therapeutic window that is inherent with Lithium salts - surely the reasons for taking lithium (bipolar, mania , augmenting unipolar anti-depressants etc) fundamentaly needs a second person who can monitor its beneficial effects? or look out for its negative ones.

I'm sure people have or do self medicate (which some people may say is bad enough) but if your not even getting the blood tests and regular health checks - doesn't sound a good idea. There have been many cases of individuals being hospitalised by lithium & some of those include deaths simply from chemists dispensing the incorrect strength. (most of the time this is just a few weeks on double dose, which might sound a lot but thats a very narrow window)

This is of course just my opinion, I do appreciate with no health insurance things get complicated.

Even if I had health insurance I'd only go in to get my blood tested, not for psychiatric advice or medicine. Self medication is the only way to go for an informed consumer.

Lithium orotate is an OTC form of lithium that doesn't work quite the same way as prescription lithium carbonate. It has different pharmacology and a completely different dose (lithium carbonate is taken at doses of 900-1500mg, lithium orotate is taken at 60mg, 120mg, 240mg or so).

The reason I'm experimenting with it is possible bipolar/unipolar depression, but also because I'm interested in its GSK-3 (glycogen synthase kinase-3) inhibition effects and neuroprotective effects. If I don't have any complications from the lithium and it seems to help me feel better (I think I've noticed withdrawal effects on the days I haven't had any!) for an extended period I'm going to try adding melatonin to the mix.

My suspicion is that I'm having circadian rhythm issues (impossible to get on a regular sleep schedule due to constantly moving insomnia, oversleeping, and depression), and lithium and melatonin seem to be the two most promising OTC therapies to try.

Anyways just to re-iterate: my question is how dangerous is playing with lithium orotate? Will I always have a chance to notice nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, dizziness, or weakness before slipping into a coma and dying? Or can one pill put me over the edge and instantly kill or hurt me?

I see what your saying - must admit didn't know about the orotate salt.

Still there seems very little research publications on it and possible increased stress on kidneys (well in rats) compared to the carbonate salt.

possibly there is not enough research to give an accurate non-biased answer to your question [?]

Yeah I couldn't answer my own question even though I researched it for days. I doubt any local doctors would be able to help me either. However, Advanced Drug Discussion certainly has some members who are so far ahead of your average psychiatrist, pharmacist, or even neurobiologist when it comes to obscure chemical research knowledge.

Coolio said:

... Advanced Drug Discussion certainly has some members who are so far ahead of your average psychiatrist, pharmacist, or even neurobiologist when it comes to obscure chemical research knowledge.

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I agree with that statement, for sure. I too am interested in using Lithium Orotate to treat mild bipolar illness and depression, and wouldn't mind hearing some personal accounts, or knowledgeable feedback.

Coolio said:

Yeah I couldn't answer my own question even though I researched it for days. I doubt any local doctors would be able to help me either. However, Advanced Drug Discussion certainly has some members who are so far ahead of your average psychiatrist, pharmacist, or even neurobiologist when it comes to obscure chemical research knowledge.

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I hope to reach this level one day myself, but it will be a long, difficult road...

Self medication is the only way to go for an informed consumer.

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that's one of the least intelligent comments I've ever heard. And what bluelight is missing are members who are great at treating patients. A good doctor is priceless. You wouldn't have lost your lunch if you'd have gone through a doctor- a doc would have told you to take lithium with food. Even then, though, a lot of people will have problems keeping food down.

Playing with any salt of Lithium without routine bloodwork- which with lithium is generally done monthly- can very easily result in death. Even people who have routine bloodtesting can end up with kidney damage or worse. And there's no way you're gonna talk a hospital into blood testing you. I'd love to hear you explain that to them.

Of all the meds out there, Lithium isn't remotely appropriate for mild bipolar disorder or mild depression. I haven't found much about it in anything but treatment resistant depression. Far better would be Depakote (with bloodtesting typically every 6 months) or Lamictal (especially for those who tend towards depression more than mania).

As I recall, if lithium doesn't work or you stop taking it, it's very unlikely to work again in the future.

Ham-milton if you had read I specifically mentioned how I took lithium with food and that's when I threw up.

You're probably against the use of anabolic steroids, growth hormone, nootropics, IV drug use, etc. too?

Me personally, I like to have fun with my body and brain.

you took food afterwards (at least as I read it; that's not particularly clear). It should be taken after eating, not before. And I'm not particularly anti-anything in that list. Maybe anabolics by ball players, a little conflicted on that.

let me know how it goes getting those blood tests.

Ham-milton said:

that's one of the least intelligent comments I've ever heard. And what bluelight is missing are members who are great at treating patients. A good doctor is priceless. You wouldn't have lost your lunch if you'd have gone through a doctor- a doc would have told you to take lithium with food. Even then, though, a lot of people will have problems keeping food down.

Playing with any salt of Lithium without routine bloodwork- which with lithium is generally done monthly- can very easily result in death. Even people who have routine bloodtesting can end up with kidney damage or worse. And there's no way you're gonna talk a hospital into blood testing you. I'd love to hear you explain that to them.

Of all the meds out there, Lithium isn't remotely appropriate for mild bipolar disorder or mild depression. I haven't found much about it in anything but treatment resistant depression. Far better would be Depakote (with bloodtesting typically every 6 months) or Lamictal (especially for those who tend towards depression more than mania).

As I recall, if lithium doesn't work or you stop taking it, it's very unlikely to work again in the future.

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Second that about this being a dumb idea. Although I have to point out that there would be a lot of logistics involved in offering legit medical advice over the internet, especially on a drug abuse website like this. As I recall, soundphaRm at least claims to be a pharmacist or nurse, can't remember. I don't think whether or not you loose your lunch from the lithium or not is particularly important -- you can loose your lunch from any number of things.

Suffice it to say, taking lithium compounds without supervision is utterly stupid, and you may end up paying for it with your life.

The amount of lithium ion that Coolio took is just enough to have *some* effect on human physiology at all (Unless Li-Ot & Li-Asp really are 20x more active. To illustrate:

(Below are the percentages of Lithium Ion / molecular weight of a given Li compound -- Lithium metal is very light - lighter than water & so comprises just a few % of each.)

Lithium Orotate has a m.w. of 180.04 and lithium an m.w. of 6.94 meaning that Lithium ion comprises about 4% of a given dose.

Lithium Carbonate has an m.w. of 73.89 and so Lithium ion comprises 9.4% of a given dose of the carbonate.

Clinically therapeutic doses for the carbonate range (once started) from 450mg to 1,200mg per day -- Twice the Lithium ion content and way higher dose puts 120mg of LiOt in a *pretty safe range

This reveals a wide disparity between the posters stated dose of the Orotate form and something approaching therapeutic.

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While I agree with Ham-Milton on the point of self medication - a distinction can perhaps be drawn between the sort of self medicating the St. John's Wort buyer does and someone taking Isoniazid(MAOI) out of fish antibiotic packs -- So I believe it to be in this instance where the poster is using 'subtherapeutic' amounts- relative to those used clinically.

As for the indications for Lithium's use it has been and can be used in a subpopulation to augment existing AD/SSRI therapy, recently it has even found new use at lower end doses in the anxiety / panic attack crowd. Given lithium's place on the periodic table and it's function at **low** doses it may one of those things like selenium or beta carotene - you can survive without it, live better with the right amount or take too much & get toxicity.

Lithium toxicity - even despite the fact that with continued administration it alters the function of renal microtubules - accentuating it's own bio-accumulation - is unlikely to occur at this dose, kidney failure notwithstanding.

Depakote is a crappy alternative unless you can't afford anything else or you don't have any hair *to* lose and are overweight allready.
Lamictal is great, few side fx, except for Stevens-Johnson's - that potentially fatal skin rash.

I find giving drug users the benefit of the doubt on dose (and renal function) to not be in the best interests of harm reduction, especially since the user isn't getting any of the required tests. I also think most people who post on ADD are aware that different cations can alter the effective dose of the drug, even if they aren't active in and of themselves. I'm not trying to flame anyone here, I just think this is a serious issue.

This is a serious issue. I had in the past spent a good number of hours studying lithium's interaction with GSK-3, ERK 1/2 (AKA P44/42 MAPKinase), & PKC so it is not an issue of which I am ignorant. I would only make a recommendation to proceed with caution in a post such as this when there is such an apparent margin b/t the poster's stated dose and anything approaching that which would be considered clinically therapeutic.

While Li-Ot appears to be excreted somewhat slower I have not heard of any instances of acute or chronic toxicity when taken in recommended doses, as the poster states.

Once again:
Li-Citrate 600-2,400mg = 120 - 480mg of Lithium ion (3 atoms Li per mol)
Li-Carbonate 1,200-1,800mg = 112.8 - 169.2mg of Lithium ion

Lithium Orotate 120mg = 4.8mg of Lithium ion per pill

As for any clinically signifigant differences between anion subsituents I reference the following excerpt from the British Journal of Pharmacology:

1 The pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion administered as lithium orotate were studied in rats. Parallel studies were carried out with lithium carbonate and lithium chloride. 2 No differences in the uptake, distribution and excretion of the lithium ion were observed between lithium orotate, lithium carbonate and lithium chloride after single intraperitoneal, subcutaneous or intragastric injections (0.5-1.0 mEq lithium/kg) or after administration of the lithium salts for 20 days in the food. 3 The findings oppose the notion that the pharmacokinetics of the lithium ion given as lithium orotate differ from lithium chloride or lithium carbonate. 4 Polyuria and polydipsia developed more slowly in rats given lithium orotate than in those given lithium carbonate or lithium chloride, perhaps due to an effect of the orotate anion.
Br J Pharmacol. 1976 Apr;56(4):399-402

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1260219&dopt=AbstractPlus

I see you point. That was an oversight on my part.

Self medication is the only way to go for an informed consumer.

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that's one of the least intelligent comments I've ever heard.

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Well, maybe but, as Coolio mentioned:

Advanced Drug Discussion certainly has some members who are so far ahead of your average psychiatrist, pharmacist, or even neurobiologist when it comes to obscure chemical research knowledge.

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QFT. Never self medicate without BL. Period.

BTW, I could resist, the Serenity was free, only cost like 7 bucks for shipping, but I still haven't taken it, and not sure I will. Anyone know though if Lithium can be the kind of thing one may use only occasionally during the more intense psychotic episodes. Might that be safer than taking it daily since its less likely to build up in your system? Or does Lithium not work that way?

This is interesting, this guy says that small amounts of lithium are actually essential to brain health, and low doses of lithium salts can help prevent the aging of brain cells.

The Misunderstood Mineral Part 1

Yeah, but more than you'd be consuming through your food sources? I'm certain our bodies didn't evolve to require something we wouldn't get through our natural diets.

Most nutrients aren't something our bodies evolved to require - they're things that our bodies have evolved to be able to thrive when in the presence of. We can usually go without, but not reach our full potential.

This is why dietary supplements are such a large industry.

yes, as well an amount that is minimal for mere survival is not always anywhere near what is optimal for maximal health and well-being

take Vitamin C

60mg ED will prevent scurvy and keep you from this illness as humans can not synthesize endogenously Vit C, but most in the know will assert that far greater amounts of Vit C (10-50-fold) will provide a far more optimal pro-health effect

obviously with Lithium some sound research is to be done to take an informed opinion and certainly many here give food for thought so always nice to get a knowledgeabkle community's input such as can be done here i believe

certainly one leaves with more insight and points of view then before they asked the question and has some opportunity to evaluate further...so indeed IMO harm reduction is done if the responder's posts are assessed wisely