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Slid
10-05-2007, 10:08
Is it possible to take too much kratom?
Example- If you were in opiate withdrawals and didn't really feel anything besides some fair relief is it a bad idea to just keep taking it constantly?

Refluxer
10-05-2007, 10:43
Taking too much can be bad, but IME you just puke your guts out on an oversdose of kratom. I guess it depends on if you take it as a tea or in concentrated form. Also, if you're used to opiates/opioids, it will be very hard to overdose on oral kratom. If it helps, I don't see a reason not to use it.

haribo1
10-05-2007, 11:20
^Being an opiate, is it not 'dependence forming' at least?

Free
10-05-2007, 13:18
kratom like every other opiate CAN be habbit forming.. but when you're at the point where you're chasing away w/ds with kratom you shouldn't have much to worry about in that department(i've been there.)

garuda
10-05-2007, 14:56
I don't care what anyone says kratom is not an opiate, and contains no opiates.

it contains an alkaloid with some affinity for opiate receptors.

Stargazer59
10-05-2007, 15:40
Kratom contains many alkaloids including mitragynine (once thought to be the primary active), mitraphylline, and 7-hydroxymitragynine (which is currently the most likely candidate for the primary active chemical in the plant). Although structurally related to yohimbine and other tryptamines, its pharmacology is quite different, acting primarily as a mu-opioid receptor agonist. It also shares some adrenergic receptor activity similar to that of yohimbine. Kratom also contains alkaloids found in uña de gato, which are thought to play a beneficial role on the immune system and lower blood pressure, as well as epicatechin, a powerful antioxidant also found in dark chocolate and closely related to the EGCG that gives green tea its beneficial effects. Other active chemicals in kratom include raubasine (best known from Rauwolfia serpentina) and some yohimbe alkakoids such as corynantheidine.

Kratom has many potential medicinal uses, for example as a low grade analgesic comparable to codeine or propoxyphene, as a cheaper and potentially much safer alternative to methadone, and as a source of other chemicals with a wide range of beneficial activities which could be isolated from the psychoactive constituents.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom

Slid
10-05-2007, 23:33
Bump!

Im really wondering if anyone has had any negative effects with using excessive amounts of kratom during withdrawals.....

Refluxer
10-05-2007, 23:41
^Being an opiate, is it not 'dependence forming' at least?

Sure, it'll probably cause dependance. But I'd like to believe that taking it orally as a tea could help with withdrawals. It tastes foul as a tea, and it's legal. If it dampens negative symptoms of withdrawal, I think it's a good alternative to use for some time until one can quit completely. Also, the switching of the drug can be beneficial in a psychological sense.

Slid
10-05-2007, 23:51
I understand the dependence issue (clearly). I just wanna make sure treating withdrawal symptoms with kratom does not have some sort of ceiling like tramadol for example. Please do not respond to this thread with basic info kratom.

I want to know if anyone has had experience (bad or good) with kratom to treat opiate withdrawals.

More specifically if anyone has had a negative experience with VERY high doses (50-100 grams into tea for one dose) of kratom WHILE WITHDRAWING FROM OPIATES.

MDPVagrant
11-05-2007, 00:40
I recently threw out the rest of my kratom and decided never to touch it again. Not going into a lot of detail, but lately I've been using (legal) stimulants on & off, and also kratom on a regular basis. IMHO, the kratom has f*cked me up in more ways than stimulants ever have. Among other things, it's interfered with REM sleep (and getting to sleep in general) to the point where I now have a sleep disorder & can't sleep without taking crap that would stun a rhinoceros. I also feel kratom has messed with my brain chemistry (admittedly in association with stimulants) to the point of constant mood instability and depression. Stims never did that alone, it happened when I started using kratom again.

Not saying it will affect everyone this way, but long-term it seems to mix particularly badly with stimulants and will probably screw you up bigtime. In fact, at least in my case kratom has mixed poorly with just about everything.

By itself, heavy use does result in physical addiction, and also a tendency toward apathy & just sitting around all the time doing nothing... very similar to heavy opiate use, only weaker withdrawal symptoms. I'm not messing with the stuff anymore, long-term it's done nothing but f*ck up my life.

P.S. for use to help w/d from opiates? Sure, if you only use it for a short time and start tapering almost immediately. Otherwise you just trade one dependency for another, and maybe in some ways kratom is even worse.

WarmHappyBlanket
11-05-2007, 01:09
just buy some high grade crushed leaves and add about a half oz in boiling water....then strain and enjoy....
the first time i tried this it was AMAZING...i was in full blown W/D's and it COMPLETELY deminished all of my symptoms
but cause of the stimulating effect it was kinda hard to fall asleep

Refluxer
11-05-2007, 15:16
50-100 grams is a hell of a lot of kratom. I dunno how that would affect an individual with tolerance to opiates. I'd guess there might be some bad side effects stemming from the different pharmacological profile of crude kratom compared to pharmaceutical opioids/opiates, but this is really just speculation. I'd recommend you to start lower, like 15-25 gr, and see where that takes you. It's easy to add some more if that's not enough.

Chronik Fatigue
11-05-2007, 15:26
It turns your skin black apparently...

[edit]


PHYSIOLOGICAL EFFECTS

Long term addicts become thin, their skin darkens, particularly in the face on both cheeks which gives an appearance similar to a hepatic face. Dryness in the mouth is common as well as frequent micturition and often constipation. Some mention that the faeces are black and tend to be small in shape similar to goat faeces (Norakarnphadung, 1968). Withdrawal symptoms include, for example, hostility, aggression, flow of tears, wet nose, inability to work, aching in the muscles and bones, jerky movement of the limbs. These are all typical symptoms of kratom addicts.
KRATOM PSYCHOSIS

There were five cases of kratom addiction revealing psychotic symptoms; these had been seen by the author in the last year (1974) in the outpatient department. Initially three cases were suspected of having kratom psychosis on the basis of their history of addiction and their general appearance and on psychiatric examination.

Case 1: A 55-year old Thai subject had begun eating kratom at the age of 20. His complaints were convulsions and mental confusion over the past few weeks. He was thin, his skin had become dark, particularly in the face on both cheeks, and it had an appearance similar to a hepatic face. Clouding of consciousness, experiencing of delusions and hallucinations were clearly evident.

Case 2: This 32-year old Thai was a labourer. He had begun using the kratom leaf daily at the age of 22 and had combined his kratom addiction with alcohol consumption for the past two years. He was confused and experienced persecutory ideation. He was admitted for two weeks; the result of the treatment was satisfactory.

Case 3: This 31-year old Thai was a married labourer who had begun eating kratom when he was 14. He complained of dizziness and headaches. He experienced hallucinations, delusion and confusion.

Only case 2 was admitted to the hospital, where major tranquillizers and supportive treatment were given. Cases 1 and 3 were out-patients, treated with major tranquillizers.

Cases 4 and 5 were psychotic patients. They had been multiple addicts, combining the use of kratom with alcohol, amphetamines and heroin. There were two cases of schizophrenia who had a history of kratom addiction and who were still users. While they were limited in social activity, they were good workers. None of them has relapsed during the past 10 years.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_journal3.shtml

haribo1
11-05-2007, 15:46
I don't care what anyone says kratom is not an opiate, and contains no opiates.

it contains an alkaloid with some affinity for opiate receptors.

What is your definition of an opiate? Mine is 'a natural compound that agonizes the opiate receptors'. Do you mean it's not a phenanthracine-type opiate?

rachamim
11-05-2007, 20:53
Hairbo: Partial crossover receptor affinity[ies] at CERTAIN dosages do NOT qualify subatances as opiates/opioids. However there ARE other parameters that do allow people to accurately qualify a substance.

One is the Morphine Rule, which if a substance qualifies under any of the 4 components qualifies it, and Kratom and Mitragynine fail it.

Another is antagonist activity. Kratom again fails it [Full Disclosure: In a previous thread -people really should start using the search engine here - this paticular subject was raised. I made the same statement. Another poster offered that they had seen a paper where antagonist activity was recorded. I asked them to produce it, as far as I know they never have. In further searching I reapeat my original position].

Some argue that structure is another way to prove it [very weak argument mind you as anyone who has considered Loperamide will tell you]. Kratom again fails it.

Opiate/Opioid Substitution [where an addict replaces their addictive opiate/opioid with a second substance] is another way. Kratom again fails it.


Finally, for the intial poster, there is at least one paper concerning opiate/opioid withdrawal and Kratom substituion. It involved a trial in New Zealand where detoxing methadone patients were offered [in the active study group] an unlimited supply of Kratom to ease their withdrawwals. The other test group received a placebo. the only hopeful conclusion was that Kratom SOMETIMES causes more vivid dreams. As a long term addict I can tell you that detoxing from any opiate/opioid produces such dreams as the senses slowly come back to life. Ergo, it is worthless, or perhaps worth as much as Loperamide for its placebo value as well as its limited therapuetic value in terms of withdrawal's side effects [Kratom is sometime's described as being equal to Tylenol 3s].

If people would like to know more, or examine that and plenty of other papers on ths substance, please use the search engine. The refs are posted here.

nile420
11-05-2007, 22:32
Kratom fucking sucks anyway, why even bother with it? no wonder i've never heard of the shit.

MDPVagrant
08-06-2007, 08:46
Gee we've got some real intelligence around here.... let's switch the order of the above around a little bit: "I've never heard of this stuff, let alone tried it. It f*cking sucks, why even bother with it?" 8(

Niandra LaDes
08-06-2007, 11:23
no, its not well stated but it brings up a good point. if it was a valid replacement for opiates wouldnt have your local news have brought you a scare story by now about it? wouldnt the DEA be moving to outlaw it? maybe its my fucked up american perspective, but since it isnt illegal it cant be worthwhile. no?

MDPVagrant
08-06-2007, 11:49
no, its not well stated but it brings up a good point. if it was a valid replacement for opiates wouldnt have your local news have brought you a scare story by now about it? wouldnt the DEA be moving to outlaw it? maybe its my fucked up american perspective, but since it isnt illegal it cant be worthwhile. no?
Well, depends what you consider valid... no, you can't take it (in the form it normally sells in), put it in a syringe & slam it like heroin. Or snort it, for that matter. It's difficult to prepare, tastes horrible and has little/no interest as a party drug.

It is something of a valid substitute for an oral opiate high however, trust me... I've been hooked on both oral oxy and hydrocodone (not proud of it) and also kratom in the past, the latter for about a year. It doesn't scale as well as 'real' opiates in terms of the euphoria continuing to increase 'infinitely' with dosage, but it also isn't as nasty to get hooked on. IMO it's much more recreational than tramadol, solidly in the recreational category in terms of enjoyment.

If I worked for the DEA I'd probably slap it into Schedule III or something, bit lighter weight than the heavy hitters but quite enjoyable. It IS in fact on the DEA's "Drugs and Chemicals of Concern" list, they've been watching it and obviously thinking about scheduling it... just haven't yet, for whatever reason. I suspect they've been too preoccupied lately with Meth & other stuff that's actually been killing people. Not to mention every spare penny of the U.S. gov't's budget has been headed to Iraq as of late... (rolling eyes).

Niandra LaDes
08-06-2007, 11:58
thank you

MagickalKat777
08-06-2007, 13:19
Its harder to schedule a plant than it is to schedule a drug... that's probably the main reason why they haven't done anything about it. Though now that 7-HO-mitragynine, 7-AcO-Mitragynine, and Mitragynine itself are now available in tincture form online, who knows...

As for withdrawals... why bother? I tried kratom once and had one of the nastiest drug experiences of my life. They're not kidding when they say shoot the dose too low and you're stimulated as all fucking hell. I can't remember the last time I got so sick off a drug... 5-MeO-AMT didn't hold a candle on kratom body load. I tossed the rest of my shit and vowed never to touch it again.

MDPVagrant
22-06-2007, 02:38
kratom like every other opiate CAN be habbit forming.. but when you're at the point where you're chasing away w/ds with kratom you shouldn't have much to worry about in that department(i've been there.)
Frankly, I find the post-acute depression from coming off a heavy kratom habit to be much worse than it is with 'real' opiates (probably because of kratom's stimulant qualities). The withdrawal syndrome itself is very lightweight compared to opiates (agitation and fatigue, that's about it) but once that depression hits around day 4 or 5 -- watch the hell out, man. Two hours of that sh*t feels like 20 years.

Unless someone's willing to go on antidepressants (or taper veeerry gradually) when they finally kick kratom, I would not recommend substituting kratom for opiates due to the above. Particularly if it takes very frequent doses of kratom to make the switch. Just go off the opiate directly, sweat out the physical w/d and be glad you don't also have a stimulant-type substance to kick at the same time.

As for withdrawals... why bother? I tried kratom once and had one of the nastiest drug experiences of my life. They're not kidding when they say shoot the dose too low and you're stimulated as all fucking hell. I can't remember the last time I got so sick off a drug... 5-MeO-AMT didn't hold a candle on kratom body load. I tossed the rest of my shit and vowed never to touch it again.
Was it mainly nausea? If so, you OD'd plain & simple. There's no such thing as a heavy kratom body load at low doses. If it was a few grams or something, you were sold something that wasn't kratom. I guess it's possible as well that you're allergic to it, or had a drug interaction with something else.

TheLoveBandit
29-06-2009, 21:46
w/d bump save

weekend addiction
13-06-2010, 02:23
no, its not well stated but it brings up a good point. if it was a valid replacement for opiates wouldnt have your local news have brought you a scare story by now about it? wouldnt the DEA be moving to outlaw it? maybe its my fucked up american perspective, but since it isnt illegal it cant be worthwhile. no?

Nitrous is legal. Ether is legal. The list goes on. The DEA hasn't scheduled everything good.

Doco
19-10-2010, 13:29
I realize it's an old thread - I just wanted to toss in my experience cause I'm up late. I'm a lifelong on/off opiate user, former drugstore cowboy so had access to it all, even the ole shake & bake dilaudids and morphine that looked like saccharine and instantly dissolved (that was 35 years ago). After 18 months in the cross bar hotel for sales etc, I more or less quit the scene. But I still always loved em and I get excited at the prospect of dental surgery because I know I'll get some Vicodins and always take way too many way too fast. Anyway, sorry for the ramble. First post here at BL.

The point is I have been using Poppy Pods daily (or 2x daily) for approx 9 months, not too much, maybe 5 Jumbos at a whack, but as my tolerance began to rise to where 5 only made me feel normal I decided I wanted to quit them (plus they made me a couch potato after a while) but 36hr into C/T the WD was way worse than I remembered and I made another batch of tea. Early on I had heard of Kratom and ordered some Premium crushed Thai leaves. Made tea with two grams, felt nothing and put it away. Then I thought well, if I was at at detox they give you benzos right? I told my Dr. what was up but she only gave me five .5mg Ativan - lol. So I ordered 60 more from overseas and started to slowly wean off the Pods taking 4 10mg Diazepam a day. After two weeks I burned through all 60 benzos but was only down to 1 Pod a day and still got really bad RLS when I tried to quit them totally. Not wanting a benzo habit too I remembered the Kratom and made a batch with 6gms and brewed it twice through a Mr. Coffee and choked it down. Man, within minutes the anxiety I was experiencing was much better but best of all, my RLS was greatly reduced and that has always been the worst part of WD for me. I dont mind the puking, pissing out both ends or anything else as much as those crazy cramped up muscles and RLS.

Today is the 2nd complete day of no other drugs beyond the Kratom (and a little weed) and although I am somewhat uncomfortable it is not at all like normal WDs with flu-like symptoms etc. Although I completely recognize that my habit was no burner by any stretch, the Kratom definitely helped to the point where I could do it instead of just cave in and score again. But like I said, my opiate dosage was very low by the time I quit...I absolutely had to taper first. I can't imagine it doing much for a full on burner.

I do need to get more Kratom and am confused by all the abbreviations I see here...what is the best kind I should look for? Thanks is advance!

Pegasus
20-10-2010, 01:58
^I recommend coming into the Other Drugs forum and starting a thread or joining a current kratom discussion. Many of us have had wonderful success tapering off of opiates using kratom as an intermediate... I find that you have to titrate the dose of the opiate you are addicted to before switching to kratom though, as kratom is not going to nearly substitute for a huge habit of a strong opiate. I think this is the biggest issue people have when using kratom; you had this issue at first apparently, too!

In summary, I think kratom is great at getting rid of most of the symptoms of withdrawal so long as you don't try to jump directly from a large dose of another opiate. Taper as much as possible first, I say!

PS- I have come off of opiates three times with kratom - buprenorphine x2 and poppy pods x1... Worked well with both but definitely better with bupe. I assume this is because they have similar "speedy opiate" effects, as opposed to the drowsy, sedating effects of the pods (main alkaloid in pods is morphine)...

Edit- I recommend to just get "micronized bali" (essentially just ground up "bali" kratom leaves)... It works wonderfully-- actually better than the tinctures or resins IMO and also much less addicting and expensive.

Lysis
20-10-2010, 05:31
what is the best kind I should look for

I'm a regular kratom lover. I suggest Maeng Da - Pimp Grade Thai Kratom

Yes...that really is PIMP grade. LOL I focus, I'm motivated, I just love this stuff.

Doco
22-10-2010, 00:22
Thx guys - being a newbie here I just went to the first Kratom thread I saw.
Thx for the redirection and encouragement.