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MolokoVelocet
17-04-2006, 08:49
Thought id throw this one out there. From what ive read it significantly reduces metabolism and potentiates/lengthens methadone. Even more surprising is its supposed effectiveness at even low doses. Being an NMDA agonist id imagine it would help block tolerance too.

Cat's Claw on its own is one fucking cool herb that deserves so much more research it kills me. Its potential with opiates seems pretty big.

OK.. READY....DISCUSS. Ill chime in with some hard info when i get a chance to relocate it

fastandbulbous
17-04-2006, 15:45
What's the active compound in cat's claw? It'd be a pretty rare beast - a naturally occurring NMDA antagonist

jasoncrest
17-04-2006, 17:25
It doesn't seem to be an NMDA antagonist...

It has the following effects:
-Immunostimulating by way of enhancing phagocytosis:
-Ganglion-blocking with an enhancing effect on parasympathetic tone:
-Inhibitory to striated muscle contraction;
-Hypotensive, uterostimulant and antipyretic;
-Diuretic.
-Stimulation of the non-specific immune system with activation of macrophages and granulocytes to eliminate non-physiological substances;
-Enhancement of the sensitivity and reactivity of the immune system to seize and to eliminate very weak antigens;
-Inhibition of inflammation by a repairing incorporation of lipids into the lipid matrix of damaged cell membranes;
-Selective inhibition of growth of malignant cells by simultaneous improvement of erythrocyte and macrophage function;
-Enhancement of the growth inhibitory effect of (pharmaceutical) cytostatics by an intact immune system;
-Selective growth inhibition of virustransformed cells.

It's true that you can read in many sites that it really potentiates Methadone.
I'm very curious about that as well....

jasoncrest
17-04-2006, 17:35
read up on Cats Claw + Methadone. Uncanny potentiation and basically stops the body from breaking the shit down. ALthough I can forsee possible organ damage from such extended runs on an already organ damaging opiate :P

If this poster is right, then I think Cat's Claw acts on the enzymes that metabolize Methadone to inactive products (CYP3A4, CYP2D6, and two other ones, I forgot their names)

MolokoVelocet
17-04-2006, 21:48
Cats Claw IS an NMDA Antagonist (i said agonist in first post, oops).

Mine google/pubmed and you'll find some studies confirming this. Ill find more later... but heres a couple of the better ones demonstrating this on pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12624526&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12893423&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11197086&query_hl=8&itool=pubmed_docsum

Aye naturally occuring NMDA antagonists are so rare. Interestingly enough it strongly antagonizes NMDA without causing dissasosciative effects.

ill do some actual research and post some shit. cats claw is a pretty cool herb, its lack of attention considering its unique properties (far beyond recreational drugs) makes me want to champion this shit. Got lots of shit to do today but when i get some spare time ill summerize some shit and post references

im surprised something with such a relevant effect to recreational drug use is completely unknown, even to the veterans of this board

edarrin
18-04-2006, 02:00
Interesting. keep us posted.

tsion
18-04-2006, 05:58
fascinating! what about other opiates?

MolokoVelocet
18-04-2006, 09:20
From what i can tell it should work on ALL opiates. If this is true then this would instantly be the reigning king of opiate add-ons.

Just speculation but its looking like Cats Claw could be a powerful tolerance blocker, potentiator, and metabolism inhibitor for some if not all opiates.

Fucking Jack of all Trades... if this holds true then we got us one hell of a OP tool. Sorry.. again, i got very little time and i gotta nod off for an early morning... but i promise you guys im gonna spend some hours mining google scholar (check it out, recently discovered it... its like pubmed X5), pubmed, and various boards.

Best way to find out is to mail me various highly schedueled narcotics so i can spend hours testing this theory, ofcourse. =D

jacky
18-04-2006, 09:39
I thought that cats claw would be good mixed with opiates too.

in doses ranging from 1 grams to over 20 grams I cant say that it is very noticeable.

what is noticeable is a reduction in joint pain it seems...but I would need to consume the herb more to confirm this.

recently a company has made isolated alkaloid tinctures of this plant.

take care.

MolokoVelocet
19-04-2006, 07:54
jacky, u tried mixing opiates with cats claw?

What opiate??

Papaverace
21-04-2006, 04:53
Of the opioids, methadone and ketobemidone are also known as NMDA-antagonists. Perhaps that's why those two often seem to ease chronic pain better than morphine. I have been eating 3 Cat's claw capsules a day for a while now but I am not sure if it's my imagination that tells me that it's working...

donkeyPUNCH
21-04-2006, 05:05
since this cats claw is legal, i assume its alright for me to ask where i could get some right?

if not mods do what you will..

MolokoVelocet
21-04-2006, 20:06
you'll most likely be warned for even thinking about posting about asking where one might find cats claw. i aint joking.

ill pm you

ChemicalSmiles
22-04-2006, 00:08
lol ^^

ktx49
22-04-2006, 00:15
i cant believe this...i read this whole thread and only ONE person posted whether or not they actually tried cats claw and methadone(or any opiate/opioid)....and his posts isnt making me run out to the herbal store anytime soon!!!

lol please lets worry about antagonist/agonist, inhibitor, enzymes, etc later on...for now, lets just see if it fucking works at TRULY potentiating an opiate high...none of that grapefruit juice or tagament bullshit(yall know its increase in effects is negligable at best...personally i get NOTHING). the only thing ive found to actually increase the "high" of an opiate is phergan(promethazine)....and not just increased sedation.

ombladon
22-04-2006, 19:36
I am very familiar with herbs and herbal teas and all that, i actually have a large textboox size binder overflowing with literature on herbs and plants to use for teas, tinctures, baths, etc. It describes the best method for each specific disease/complication.

I'm sure that if i look for cat's claw i will find it.....however the name was familiar to me b/c i am pretty sure i remeber reading it as an ingerdient in an Lakota, which is an indian (native american) pereparation capsule of different herbs and plants.

However, how is the best way (does it say?) to take cat's claw? By method of tea? (which i'm assuming would be best since it has all the chemicals of the plant, unless it is only a CERTAIN chemical that potentates opiates/opioids, in which case an extract or a pill would be better). Are there pills containg the extract (like there are with Valerian, Kava Kava, etc) in pharmacy stores?

I would really reasearch the ACTUALL effects of cat's claw, before you use it in higer does or daily doses to potentate opiates/opioids, b/c teas are actual drugs, and can contain drugs to cause harm in the long run, esp when someone is taking other medications like opiates/opioids and/or other drugs (rec or therapeautical).

I am interested in this since i'm on methadone myself, i came down from 205mg to 140mg right now and i'm on a slow taper so i am interested as well in this thread.

fastandbulbous
22-04-2006, 21:08
Cats Claw IS an NMDA Antagonist (i said agonist in first post, oops).

Mine google/pubmed and you'll find some studies confirming this. Ill find more later... but heres a couple of the better ones demonstrating this on pubmed.

Er, no... Those abstracts that you've linked to are about compounds from Uncaria rhynchophylla that have NMDA antagonist activity, but Uncaria rhynchophylla isn't cat's claw - cat's claw is actually Uncaria tomentosa, which is a different species. Being from the same genus in no way implies that the two different species will have the same alkaloids or same pharmacological activity (compare Salvia divinorum to any of the other thousand members of the genus Salvia if you want an example).

The last ref does mention a compound isolated from U. tomentosa that reverses the behaviour blocking actions of a known NMDA antagonist


Uncarine E (20 mg kg(-1), i.p.) also blocked the impairment of passive avoidance performance caused by the nicotinic receptor antagonist mecamylamine (15 mg kg(-1), i.p.) and the N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist (+/-)-3-(2-carboxypiperazin-4-yl)-propyl-1-phosphonic acid (CPP; 7.5 mg kg(-1), i.p.)

but it says nothing about it being mediated via the NMDA (PCP) receptor, so you can't infer anything from that stating that cat's claw has any NMDA antagonist activity

Papaverace
01-05-2006, 23:26
i cant believe this...i read this whole thread and only ONE person posted whether or not they actually tried cats claw and methadone(or any opiate/opioid)....and his posts isnt making me run out to the herbal store anytime soon!!!

lol please lets worry about antagonist/agonist, inhibitor, enzymes, etc later on...for now, lets just see if it fucking works at TRULY potentiating an opiate high...none of that grapefruit juice or tagament bullshit(yall know its increase in effects is negligable at best...personally i get NOTHING). the only thing ive found to actually increase the "high" of an opiate is phergan(promethazine)....and not just increased sedation.

As for grapefruitjuice, it works but ONLY with methadone in my opinion. I have never felt anything with the other opoids. Better still is of course higher alkaline ph in the urine. And that is proven scientifically.But the only things that will happen is that the methadone is LONGER in your system. You will not feel more euphoric. As for cats claw...To really judge cats claw the more ppl use it the better I guess. I am not sure that it's not a coincidence that I feel almost overmedicated right now.

IntralopeAMINE
02-05-2006, 04:38
cats claw's been around forever and nobody ever looks into it. i used to have a methadone habit and the shit really has significant lengthening effects on methadones action/duration. 25% maybe? give or take placebo effect, but real

Papaverace
02-05-2006, 23:58
cats claw's been around forever and nobody ever looks into it. i used to have a methadone habit and the shit really has significant lengthening effects on methadones action/duration. 25% maybe? give or take placebo effect, but real

That's what I felt like - only I wasn't sure it wasn't some coincidence or my imagination. But I do feel better stabilized or what the f-k the word is.

Beans
03-05-2006, 19:57
As for grapefruitjuice, it works but ONLY with methadone in my opinion. I have never felt anything with the other opoids. Better still is of course higher alkaline ph in the urine. And that is proven scientifically.But the only things that will happen is that the methadone is LONGER in your system. You will not feel more euphoric. As for cats claw...To really judge cats claw the more ppl use it the better I guess. I am not sure that it's not a coincidence that I feel almost overmedicated right now.

That's incorrect. Actually, grapefruit juice DECREASES the effects of methadone.

Beans
03-05-2006, 20:04
And just for the record, a little explanation as to why this is true: Grapefruit juice (or any citrus fruit juice) contains relatively high levels of organic acids (not just vitamin C. In fact, vitamin C is only a minor consideration as it's mostly present as the unionized form), such as citric and tartaric acid (and a few others). These encourage the equilibrium between methadone in its ionized and unionized form towards the ionized form (eg methadone citrate), and in the ionized state, the body excretes more of the methadone into the urine.

Basically your dose turns into piss.

jasoncrest
04-05-2006, 12:24
That's incorrect. Actually, grapefruit juice DECREASES the effects of methadone.

Then why can you read on the most serious websites that Grapefruit Juice can potentiate Methadone by inhibiting CYP3A4, which metabolizes Methadone to inactive metabolites?

Papaverace
04-05-2006, 20:22
Then why can you read on the most serious websites that Grapefruit Juice can potentiate Methadone by inhibiting CYP3A4, which metabolizes Methadone to inactive metabolites?

I ask the same. Anyhow here is an experiment that says methadone levels increase:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15229464&dopt=Citation

Beans
04-05-2006, 20:30
Then why can you read on the most serious websites that Grapefruit Juice can potentiate Methadone by inhibiting CYP3A4, which metabolizes Methadone to inactive metabolites?

Oh, no doubt you're correct with saying that, the inhibition of CYP3A4 DOES help with potentiation (mainly the length of the "high"), but on the other hand, the high levels of organic acids are also working against the potentiation, so who knows whether it's enough to reverse the effect of inhibiting CYP3A4. I know its either fast or one of the other OD admins who actually discussed this in another thread.

Just use cimetide (sp?), it's proven to work and you won't end up pissing out your dose.

BigBenn
04-05-2006, 21:47
Oh, no doubt you're correct with saying that, the inhibition of CYP3A4 DOES help with potentiation (mainly the length of the "high"), but on the other hand, the high levels of organic acids are also working against the potentiation, so who knows whether it's enough to reverse the effect of inhibiting CYP3A4. I know its either fast or one of the other OD admins who actually discussed this in another thread.


The acidification from weak acids like those in grapefruit juice is minimal when considering typical strong acids already in your stomach. I really couldn't fathom a major difference in ionized/deionized ratio in the GI and therefore absorbtion. I think you should be worrying about once it is in your bloodstream (at a contstant ph) and liver enzyme metabolism (exactly what the other poster says is more important). I would definately agree cyp inhib would be the dominating process here.

LeoC
28-05-2006, 07:30
It's all very well to talk about what amazing potential Cat's Claw has, but unless we have a decent amount of feedback on its effects then we won't get anywhere. Has anyone taken Cat's Claw with methadone since this thread was last updated?

Survival0200
28-05-2006, 07:49
What are the effects of real cat's claws when on methadone? =D

xor
28-05-2006, 08:47
i'd be willing to try it. heres some background: right now i'm at a dose of 65mg and that gets me through the day with a little bit of a buzz feeling.. (eg. kind of a cross between slightly drowzy and like having a little extra bounce in my step compared to being normally a depressed person. if that makes sense. its nothing like an opiate high but it definitely feels like a good energy flowing through me) that feeling starts about 2 hours after my dose and lasts about 6-8 hours, then i just feel normal. when i wake up the next day i want my next drink and if i have to wait a few hours extra to get that drink i start noticing anxiety and cold sweats and weakness.. i dunno if thats withdrawls starting or just me being over anxious. that happens only on the 1 day of the weeek when i have to go to the clinic to get my dose and carries and i actually have to wait about 6 hours longer before i can get a ride to the clinic to get my dose. sometimes on that day i drink a little extra out of one of my bottles and the effects i notice are mainly extra drowsiness not extra euphoria as well as i dont feel as in need when i wake the next day for my dose. i've been at 65mg for 8 months now. the 12 months before that i had gone up to 80 and then back down to 65. if i wanted more meth so i could get a better buzz i'd just get my doc to up my dose again but i know all it will do is make me more drowzy. so i'm wondering will this cats claw if it works at all, just increase drowsiness, or will it increase euphoria or will it just lengthen the duration of the drug in my body, or all of the above or a combination?

is the stuff cheap? can it be obtained at a pharmacy or head shop or online or something? legally i guess is what i mean.. and should it be taken in a pure form or in some sort of pill in which it is contained along with other herbs/chemicals/fillers? pm me if you like

LeoC
28-05-2006, 09:05
What are the effects of real cat's claws when on methadone? =D
Hahahahahahahahahahahh!!! Ahahahahahahahah! Ahh... ahhh.

DexterMeth
28-05-2006, 11:20
xor: there is no way you are withdrawling from just waiting 6 hours more then you usually have to, to dose the next day. Methadone can hold people for 36 hours from their previous dose. I've skipped a whole day of dosing a number of times and was fine...and i'm at 300mg a day.
As far as the effects of cat's claw. Yes it will probably make you more drowsy if anything. Most opiate addicts assotiate this drowsy feeling with euphoria and as euphoria. As far as obtaining it. Ever hear of a search engine?

Anyways: I'll get some cat'sclaw soon and report on the worthlessness of it :\

BigBenn
28-05-2006, 20:08
Anyways: I'll get some cat'sclaw soon and report on the worthlessness of it :\
with an attitude like that, I think you can expect some reverse placebo!

Depone
30-05-2006, 16:35
After seeing this post last night and being on methadone...well my 3rd week on the stuff, up to 55....ran out and got some of this stuff..1000mg tabs, necked 3 of em after dosing 20ml of my dose ( i split dose for working for the minute )...felt the done lasting more, well the kind of "peak" when your feeling it most lasted for longer..same with tonight when i took my 35 i am def feeling it more than usual ( ive had a pretty big toke up though as well :) )....I will let you all know how i get on on it...anyone got any dosage ideas? the 3 or 4 tabs everytime i dose is working alright...see how it goes.

BigBenn
30-05-2006, 17:46
After seeing this post last night and being on methadone...well my 3rd week on the stuff, up to 55....ran out and got some of this stuff..1000mg tabs, necked 3 of em after dosing 20ml of my dose ( i split dose for working for the minute )...felt the done lasting more, well the kind of "peak" when your feeling it most lasted for longer..same with tonight when i took my 35 i am def feeling it more than usual ( ive had a pretty big toke up though as well :) )....I will let you all know how i get on on it...anyone got any dosage ideas? the 3 or 4 tabs everytime i dose is working alright...see how it goes.
I think the greatest measure of the effects of cats claw on methadone would be with people like yourself on long term maintenance. You know your dose, and you know how long it takes off the done until you go into w/d. No one likes to experiment with w/d's but if you are low on done and have to extend your stash you should expiriment and share your results. That goes out to all those on long-term done maintenance

DexterMeth
30-05-2006, 21:59
if you're mainly talking to people on long term MMT, then why do you mention "running out". You DON'T run out of methadone when you're on maintinence. I'm 100% positive you know all this and that so I'll spare everyone the lecture ,I'm probably just misunderstanding something.....anyways, like I said yesterday, I'll give it a shot soon (no pun intended :\) and report back on the effects. I've been on MMT for about 3 months now.

BigBenn
30-05-2006, 22:08
if you're mainly talking to people on long term MMT, then why do you mention "running out". You DON'T run out of methadone when you're on maintinence. I'm 100% positive you know all this and that so I'll spare everyone the lecture ,I'm probably just misunderstanding something.....anyways, like I said yesterday, I'll give it a shot soon (no pun intended :\) and report back on the effects. I've been on MMT for about 3 months now.
Maybe long term maintenance is the wrong way to say it. What I mean is people who use done on a daily basis at a steady dose and have addiction (whether on a maintenance program or not) and w/d upon cessation.

Sorry for the confussion, I know people who perform a sort of "self-maintenance" by finding a steady source of done and using it to get off dope (usually supplied by a close friend who has either quit alltogether or went back to the dope and continues on done). Maintenance programs around here seem to not monitor their patients as well as they should. Anyways, these sources sometimes run out and leave addicts in tough situations (as described by the above poster). Out of curiousity Dexter how long until your last dose of methadone do you start to experience w/d?

DexterMeth
30-05-2006, 22:35
Some clinics actually run out of methadone? Are you kidding me? That's utterly rediculous if so. I mean, it's a legal program. All they have to do is order more than the last time they ran out. There is no reason a clinic should ever run out of supplies.. Unless it gets robbed, and the perpetrators fill a whole van up with bottles.

To answer your question. I've never gone more than 30 hours not dosing. At that point I start getting some minor cramping, and small amounts of muscle pain in my legs. The night before insomnia can really kick in too. But sometimes it's not a problem at all. If you want to play it safe though, you just sleep all you can during the day so you aren't dead tired the next day. It's kind of nice to skip a day every now and then, because you feel your next dose a lot more then. It's a nice little treat. For people that sometimes double dose. (Skip a dose on one of your take home days, then double dose a day or 2 after)...You get really fucked up. Too fucked up for some people. If you don't skip a day when you double dose, you'll probably be dissapointed. I don't know...I'm pretty messed up today, since I skipped a day..I'm more messed up then when I double dosed without skipping a day a couple days ago.

BigBenn
31-05-2006, 00:09
Some clinics actually run out of methadone? Are you kidding me? That's utterly rediculous if so. I mean, it's a legal program. All they have to do is order more than the last time they ran out. There is no reason a clinic should ever run out of supplies.. Unless it gets robbed, and the perpetrators fill a whole van up with bottles.

sorry, rereading my post I see that it is unclear again. I am not saying the clinics run out, I am saying the guy these people are getting them from (black market) no longer chooses to sell them or stops getting them or moves something like that. Rare disturbances that can leave you with no opiates (and alot of times only heroin to get you by).

But more on topic maybe on the days before you skip you can add some cats claw into your gameplan and see if it holds off w/d's a bit more. Then maybe try it when you double dose and see if you have a better high. Do you have any on hand? or plan to try it?

mitogen
01-06-2006, 11:42
That's incorrect. Actually, grapefruit juice DECREASES the effects of methadone.

Where did you get that from?
Pubmed says otherwise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15229464&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
"Grapefruit juice administration is associated with a modest increase in methadone bioavailability"

Eduard
01-06-2006, 11:51
I'm very ineterested in hearing it's possible effects. It should also boost ones immune system, huh?

jasoncrest
01-06-2006, 22:27
That's incorrect. Actually, grapefruit juice DECREASES the effects of methadone.


Where did you get that from?

Beans is wrong, Grapefruit Juice potentiates Methadone because it inhibits the CYP3A4 enzymes, which metabolize Methadone to inactive metabolites.
So if you drink Grapefruit juice before taking Methadone, there will be less Methadone converted to inactive products -> stronger effect...

ktx49
03-06-2006, 15:01
^yea the theory is though, that the massive concentrations of citric acid and shit may somewhat negate this effect, but it wouldnt matter as much as the CYP3A4 inhibition.

freedomclub
27-06-2006, 17:59
What happened to ya Dextermeth? I ate 3 cat's claw pills today after my a.m. dose of 90 mgs 'done.

freedomclub
27-06-2006, 21:46
I ate two more with lunch. Usually around 4 or 5 in the afternoon I feel really wiped out. It's around 2 now.

freedomclub
02-07-2006, 17:52
p.s. as far as mixing cat's claw and methadone,

I told you I was hardcore.

:p

Canis aureus
04-07-2006, 09:49
What if one takes cat's claw, grapefruits and chamomile with methadone: CYP 3A4 inhibitors all?

dhcdavid
03-04-2008, 23:17
so i'm wondering will this cats claw if it works at all, just increase drowsiness, or will it increase euphoria or will it just lengthen the duration of the drug in my body, or all of the above or a combination?

is the stuff cheap? can it be obtained at a pharmacy or head shop or online or something? legally i guess is what i mean.. and should it be taken in a pure form or in some sort of pill in which it is contained along with other herbs/chemicals/fillers? pm me if you like

I just purchased a bottle of 90 x 500mg caps of cat's claw from my local health food store and I paid £10.99 which is approximately $22. And considering its efficacy I'd say it was cheap.

For the last three days I've taken 3 caps (1500mg total) each day with my 75mg of methadone (2 with my first 50mg, then 1 with my remaining 25mg of methadone later in the day) and I'd say it definitely potentiates effectively.

I've felt WAY higher from my methadone than usual (with absolute pinpoint pupils [which I don't get from methadone since gaining tolerance], insomnia and just feeling plain wrecked.

Also I'd say it lengthens the effects (both analgesic and euphoric) of the methadone by at least a third, maybe a half again than without it.

So here's a big thumbs up from me for methadone and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone currently on methadone who wishes to get more bang for their buck.

£10.99 ($22.00) for a month's worth of 1500mg daily dosing makes cat's claw excellent value for money in my book. I am pleasantly surprised at just how effective it is for potentiating the effects of methadone hcl.

Ham-milton
03-04-2008, 23:41
thanks for raising the dead lazarus- at least for a change it was a worthwhile show of power.

dhcdavid
03-04-2008, 23:57
I do my best....

El Commandante
19-03-2009, 18:44
I'm on a dose of 35mg methadone daily and have some 500mg Cat's Claw capsules. How many should I take and at what time in relation to when I take my methadone? Anyone know the best way?