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Rorthron
16-07-2013, 19:13
"Delerium"? Stop trying to talk about something you have no idea about and do some research on the plant. The active compounds in Ajo Sacha appear to be mainly plant steroids.

http://www.rain-tree.com/mansoa.htm#.UeUdnVNIkS4

Apparently no research has been done on Ajos Sacha as a psychedelic substance or even the mechanisms of action. If only steroids are there it does not seem likely that they have any action on the serotonin receptors, thus they are most likely not psychedelic. Further, as most other steroids they are highly unlikely to even cross the BBB. If not, then the steroids are probably not the active substance in cause and can be anything, either serotonergics (for psychedelics) or muscarine antagonists (for deliriants)

It is pointless to be rude as you too have no idea what you are talking about.

kidklmx
16-07-2013, 19:50
Could be something different altogether, psychedelics are not limited to serotonin (ibogaine, salvia, etc.) and the effects don't seem to resemble classical serotonin binding. Solipsis brings some sense to the thread though, altered states through other means than psychedelics are often forgotten here. Claudio Naranjo's experience with Ayahausca is decidedly different from what Schultes and everyone else on the planet seems to experience, ritual is very powerful indeed

Rorthron
16-07-2013, 20:21
Could be something different altogether, psychedelics are not limited to serotonin (ibogaine, salvia, etc.) and the effects don't seem to resemble classical serotonin binding. Solipsis brings some sense to the thread though, altered states through other means than psychedelics are often forgotten here. Claudio Naranjo's experience with Ayahausca is decidedly different from what Schultes and everyone else on the planet seems to experience, ritual is very powerful indeed

of course it could be something completely different. I'm not stating that it is a deliriant, I'm just considering it a good hypothesis, according to the report. And by the way, Salvia (through salvinoriin A - although a KOR agonist ) is more aptly qualified as a dissociative. Ibogaine also binds quite strongly to the opioids and actually may have also dissociative properties rather than psychedelic. This latter is rather complex pharmacologically, affecting also the "mysterious" sigmas, to which DMT also binds. None of these has any relation to steroids.

RhythmSpring
16-07-2013, 21:50
Apparently no research has been done on Ajos Sacha as a psychedelic substance or even the mechanisms of action. If only steroids are there it does not seem likely that they have any action on the serotonin receptors, thus they are most likely not psychedelic. Further, as most other steroids they are highly unlikely to even cross the BBB. If not, then the steroids are probably not the active substance in cause and can be anything, either serotonergics (for psychedelics) or muscarine antagonists (for deliriants)

It is pointless to be rude as you too have no idea what you are talking about.

Notice how I put "psychedelics" in quotes. Something does not have to have action at the serotonin receptors to be psychedelic (Salvia, for example), and just because something isn't traditionally psychedelic doesn't mean that its psychoactive effects could not be of interest to this community.

Furthermore, if crossing the BBB was a prerequisite for psychoactivity, a whole shitload of of things we find to alter our state would not exist. Don't forget that steroids are psychoactive to some degree. And at least resist the urge to *classify* something you don't know anything about. All I'm saying is,'look, there are these plants with novel, interesting effects to be explored." It'd be great to not have that met with such swift pigeonholing and invalidation.


of course it could be something completely different. I'm not stating that it is a deliriant, I'm just considering it a good hypothesis, according to the report. And by the way, Salvia (through salvinoriin A - although a KOR agonist ) is more aptly qualified as a dissociative. Ibogaine also binds quite strongly to the opioids and actually may have also dissociative properties rather than psychedelic. This latter is rather complex pharmacologically, affecting also the "mysterious" sigmas, to which DMT also binds. None of these has any relation to steroids.

Again, we're not being sticklers here about the definition of "psychedelic."

Rorthron
17-07-2013, 02:53
Furthermore, if crossing the BBB was a prerequisite for psychoactivity,


It is.



a whole shitload of of things we find to alter our state would not exist.

Such as?


Don't forget that steroids are psychoactive to some degree

Yeah right. Testosterone? Estrogen? Which one exactly


And at least resist the urge to *classify* something you don't know anything about.

I did not classify anything. I suggested an hypothesis


All I'm saying is,'look, there are these plants with novel, interesting effects to be explored." It'd be great to not have that met with such swift pigeonholing and invalidation.


No invalidation nor pigeonholing. I just suggested an hypothesis. Time and future research will tell whether I was right or wrong, No need to get all excited and flamed about it.

cheers.

Deinonychus
17-07-2013, 03:41
Furthermore, if crossing the BBB was a prerequisite for psychoactivity, a whole shitload of of things we find to alter our state would not exist. Don't forget that steroids are psychoactive to some degree. And at least resist the urge to *classify* something you don't know anything about. All I'm saying is,'look, there are these plants with novel, interesting effects to be explored." It'd be great to not have that met with such swift pigeonholing and invalidation.

Yeah, I gotta pop in here and take issue with this. If something doesn't cross the BBB then it can't have any effects on the CNS, only the sympathomimetic systems. If you're not stimulating receptors in the brain in some way, regardless of what those receptors may be, you're not going to get any effect on consciousness, let alone psychedelia. I will thus insist you post some sort of evidence to back up your extraordinary claim that effects on consciousness can be realized without having activity occurring within the brain. Otherwise I will throw your own needlessly antagonistic and hostile words back in your face: "Stop trying to talk about something you have no idea about and do some research..."


Again, we're not being sticklers here about the definition of "psychedelic."

No, you're wrong. YOU may 'not be being a stickler about the definition' of psychedelics, but contrary to what I suspect you may believe, you are not everybody, and everybody else here is accepting the traditional definition of what psychedelia is and how it happens. If we're just going to throw random shit into a pile under the heading of 'psychedelic' then the term loses any objective meaning.

We have words to describe things specifically for a reason. If I tried to tell you that something like amphetamine was psychedelic you would likely tell me I'm talking bullshit, yet it's well established than hallucinations can be a major component of stimulant psychosis. We use specific terms to clarify what is an inherently fuzzy thing: language and how it encodes meaning. How is it useful to destroy the boundaries of what is and isn't X or Y so as to satisfy your need for somebody to be wrong so you can then be correct?

I'm not being a dick to be a dick, and this isn't just an academic distinction, a splitting of hairs. This web forum is predicated upon the concept of accurate information, and exists to try and spread that accurate information as far and wide as possible, to try and hold back the tide of nonsense and mythology, to say nothing of outright lies spread by advocates of prohibition. Classifying things sloppily is a great way to misinform, and thus goes against everything that Bluelight stands for.

So let's use our nearly infinite variety of words and their permutations in a conventional way when dealing with other people. Conversation has to take place within a sort of philological middle ground, where the participants ackgnowledge that there may be variation based on geographical or cultural separation in the connotations and denotations of various terms, and meet eachother halfway. This sort of compromise is necessary for any sort of meaningful dialogue, and while it may seem to you that it looks cool to be a maverick and go against the grain by using terms in unconventional or sloppy ways, I see that as taking a stand against something useful – the objective meaning encoded in our words – for no other reason than to be provocative or to wriggle out of a compromising statement that somebody took issue with

---

Back to the issue of changes of consciousness without a compound passing through the BBB, I would be interested to hear more about these steroids that you mention. I am not aware of a single steroid that possesses some form of psychoactivity. It is true that these compounds can definitely alter behavior, but they do so by altering the levels of certain regulatory hormones and signaling factors. This leads to a chain of alterations in the concentrations and locations of chemical signals in the body that eventually does reach into the brain, through the blood-brain barrier.

And then within the brain these abnormal quantities of whatever signaling compounds are in question creates changes in neurotransmitter levels and in the expression and pattern of electrical signals. This, ultimately, is what then drives the behavioral changes, such as unexpected, improper levels of aggression. But the steroid is not actually going into the brain and working upon the receptors there in some fashion that creates alterations in consciousness that are commonly referred to under the heading of 'psychoactive effects' as we know them. Rather, the steroids are at one end of a long, complicated chain of hormones, regulatory and signaling factors, and so forth, that ultimately leads into regions of the brain responsible for regulating our emotions and levels of aggression, such as the amygdala, via alterations in the complicated, not fully understood feedback and feedforward loops that govern many aspects of our physiology.

Cwest
17-07-2013, 05:44
scientific names please

RhythmSpring
17-07-2013, 06:21
^ ^ Mansoa alliacea & Maytenus spp.

Deinonychus, thank you for such an in-depth and kind post. It's given me a greater respect for the language we use here. My fuzzying the definitions of "psychedelic" and "psychoactive" (which I now take back) were attempts at highlighting the potential of these plants to change our conscious experience, no matter how indirectly. And thank you for spelling out *how* that happens biochemically.

I also aim to encourage people to look at the more subtle aspects of their experience, the quieter effects of plants that we can gain from if we pay attention and quiet our minds. It is partially to counter what I see as prevalent inclination toward extreme states of mind, at least on Bluelight (200mg DMT, anyone?).

I do want to point out that you say " If something doesn't cross the BBB then it can't have any effects on the CNS, only the sympathomimetic systems. " But then later explain how these things will alter behavior. This makes sense, but here I would like to, if you'll allow me, to deliberately fuzzy the line between, or at least draw a solid line connecting behavior and perception. The things we do, and the things our bodies do involuntarily are inextricably related to what is going on in the brain, which you explain.

In sum, I apologize for botching my definitions. I still would like to encourage exploration into these plants, even if they are not psychoactive by definition (http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/experiencing-existential-dread-tylenol-may-do-the-trick.html).

I honestly think taking 1 fl oz of a good chuchuhuasi extract would qualify as a significant, positive and interesting experience in anyone's book. At the moment I will not do this, as I'm using it medicinally (http://www.rain-tree.com/chuchuhuasi-extract.htm#.UeYNUFNIkS5), and I'm not sure I'm ready for the full behavioral ; ) effects.


It's posts like yours why I like Bluelight so much.

naughtynicknails
17-07-2013, 10:16
"Delerium"? Stop trying to talk about something you have no idea about and do some research on the plant. The active compounds in Ajo Sacha appear to be mainly plant steroids.

http://www.rain-tree.com/mansoa.htm#.UeUdnVNIkS4

Yeah - Delerium.

And?

Limpet_Chicken
18-07-2013, 03:44
There are indeed psychoactive steroids. Quite a few affect the GABAergic system (GABAa), such as pregnanolone (pregnEnolone is an antagonist, pregnAnalone is an agonist for the neurosteroid binding site on the GABAaR complex)

Also, things like alphaxalone, these obviously are BBB-penetrant, seeing as how they have been used clinically as general anaesthetics.

Deinonychus
18-07-2013, 04:58
^ ^ Mansoa alliacea & Maytenus spp.

Deinonychus, thank you for such an in-depth and kind post. It's given me a greater respect for the language we use here. My fuzzying the definitions of "psychedelic" and "psychoactive" (which I now take back) were attempts at highlighting the potential of these plants to change our conscious experience, no matter how indirectly. And thank you for spelling out *how* that happens biochemically.

I'm of the opinion that people can debate subject, disagree with one another, or even call eachother out, and yet do all of this within the parameters of civilized discourse and simple, common sense human decency. All too often, people conflate a disagreement on a topic with a dislike of the person they disagree with. This isn't limited to the Internet either, and sure, maybe it is indeed more common to have people take a disagreement into the realm of personal attacks when they have the pseudo-anonymity that the Internet provides as many social commentators claim, but this happens in real life too. A perfect and highly visible example would be the political parties in America. Our members of congress and senators are supposed to be level-headed, intelligent people, capable of meaningful dialogue and compromise. But instead they take their ideological differences as some sort of evidence that their opposite number is fundamentally wrong and morally bankrupt, and disagreements rapidly become personal grudges and vendettas where the object of attack is not a politician's policies but the politician's character.

We don't need to do that sort of nonsense here on Bluelight. I would say we don't need to do that type of nonsense at all but humans are humans, and mistaking philosophical differences for evidence of moral or mental bankruptcy is a fundamental part of human nature. With that said one of the goals – albeit unstated – of Bluelight is to facilitate personal growth, whether that is the result of learning accurate information about the substances we enjoy or whether that takes the form of learning how to disagree with people in a civilized fashion.


I also aim to encourage people to look at the more subtle aspects of their experience, the quieter effects of plants that we can gain from if we pay attention and quiet our minds. It is partially to counter what I see as prevalent inclination toward extreme states of mind, at least on Bluelight (200mg DMT, anyone?).

More is not always better. You are definitely correct that we (members of Bluelight that hang around here in PD) are often seemingly pursuing any number of 'holy grails'. One example of this is ego loss, holding it above all other forms of psychedelic experience and trumpeting its virtues as being 'the point' of tripping. I've seen this a lot, and the mindset that follows this pattern is the same mindset that talks up ultra high doses of psychedelics.


I do want to point out that you say " If something doesn't cross the BBB then it can't have any effects on the CNS, only the sympathomimetic systems. " But then later explain how these things will alter behavior. This makes sense, but here I would like to, if you'll allow me, to deliberately fuzzy the line between, or at least draw a solid line connecting behavior and perception. The things we do, and the things our bodies do involuntarily are inextricably related to what is going on in the brain, which you explain.

Yeah, I could have been more clear. I guess a better way to put it is that certain chemicals, like certain subsets of steroids, may affect behavior, but they do this in a roundabout way. Instead of directly acting upon the receptors in the brain they may alter the balances of various semiochemicals, signaling factors or hormones or what have you, which in turn alter the levels of other semiochemicals, and so on, with this chain of causality eventually reaching into the brain. And then the behavioral changes may be brought about, in an indirect fashion.

Connecting perception and behavior is a perfectly valid thing to do. They're both parts of the mess of feedback and feedforward loops that underlie our consciousness. I think it is worth mentioning though that there's a lot more to consciousness than just perception, with a lot of interaction between consciousness and our unconscious mental systems, and psychedelics act on the whole entirety of our minds, making no distinction between the conscious and unconscious parts of our psyche. Indeed, psychedelics seem to sort of blend the two together, blurring the edges so that you can't be sure where the one begins and the other ends, allowing input into our conscious minds from the portions of our psyches that are normally closed off behind the curtain.


In sum, I apologize for botching my definitions. I still would like to encourage exploration into these plants, even if they are not psychoactive by definition (http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/experiencing-existential-dread-tylenol-may-do-the-trick.html).

I don't think it was necessarily botching definitions, rather it's just that if we, speaking in the general sense of people engaged in a discussion, are going to be able to successfully carry out that discussion then there has to be some sort of consensus on what the various terms that may be used will mean. So if the definition of what is and is not psychedelic is going to get stretched in the course of a debate, that's fine, it's just important to make sure that everybody understands what's up, and is on the same page. And in this case I don't think that sort of consensus was there, so I pointed it out.


It's posts like yours why I like Bluelight so much.

Yeah, it's a badass website! If we all just try to post the best we can that sort of awesomeness can be sustained. Accordingly I'm nothing special, there's many, many more people on this forum that put just as much time and thought and effort into their posts, and that's why we end up returning here time and time again I would hypothesize.

---



There are indeed psychoactive steroids. Quite a few affect the GABAergic system (GABAa), such as pregnanolone (pregnEnolone is an antagonist, pregnAnalone is an agonist for the neurosteroid binding site on the GABAaR complex)

Also, things like alphaxalone, these obviously are BBB-penetrant, seeing as how they have been used clinically as general anaesthetics.

Fascinating, this I did not know! Good to learn something (preferably more than just one thing) new everyday, now I get to look stuff up about neurosteroids!

I would still say that everything that has a direct effect upon our consciousness must as a prerequisite cross the blood-brain barrier, not that you stated otherwise, just reiterating the point. If a steroid is active in the brain, as is the case with neurosteroids, then by definition it has passed through that barrier.

alovesupreme
18-07-2013, 05:37
avoiding all the discussion of semantics, but yeah, i do believe, even in this age of rational drug design, ethnopharmacology has not yet been totally played out as a source of new, potentially psychoactive compounds (and their analogs). interesting post, thank you. it makes you wonder what else could be out there.

Deinonychus
18-07-2013, 06:55
^^ Sadly we're losing biodiversity at a truly astounding rate (think PT extinction), so we may never get to find out, and that would be a real shame.

Limpet_Chicken
19-07-2013, 16:38
Actually some neurosteroids are synthesized within the brain and do not need to pass the BBB.

But there are also the synthetic ones, which when administered, do produce central GABAergic effects.

And there is also a peripheral site that seems to regulate neurosteroid synthesis, the mitochondrial 18 kDa translocator protein, a 'peripheral' benzodiazepine receptor, which amongst numerous other functions, is apparently essential for the synthesis of neurosteroids in the brain, IIRC its involved in cholesterol transport, cholesterol being the starting point for steroid biosynthesis in mammals (insects and plants have quite different steroid biochemistry)

Deinonychus
20-07-2013, 21:39
^^ Yeah when I looked the subject up I saw some mention of benzodiazepine receptors, with the caveat that certain neurosteroids that bind and modulate GABA are binding to a different location than benzos themselves. It wasn't particularly specific about whether they bind to a second active site or whether their action is more an allosteric kind of thing. Obviously it's not really possible to make any blanket statements about neurosteroids and benzodiazepine receptors but is be interested to know whether they do in fact bind to a second active site on a receptor or whether their effects are allosteric, as I haven't heard of receptors possessing multiple binding sites before.

ZFC
21-07-2013, 14:06
Speaking of obscure psychedelic botanicals, have a look at this article from 1965 in Economic Botany: James Fadiman, Genista canariensis: A minor psychedelic (ECON BOT , vol. 19, no. 4, pp. 383-383, 1965)

http://i.imgur.com/fTxAHQo.png

RhythmSpring
21-07-2013, 16:09
^ Wow, thanks for reporting that. Perhaps "minor psychedelic" is a term we could start using here?

My experience with Chuchuhuasi is similar to the herb described above; hypnogogic imagery before falling asleep, enhancement of visual perception (without visual distortions), psychological arousal, feelings of amiability toward others, and no "letdown." Chuchuhuasi and other "minor psychedelics" would make perfect adjuncts to other, more serious psychedelics, imo. For example, I would gladly take a swig of Chuchuhuasi with some mushrooms. In fact, Chuchuhuasi is very often added to Ayahuasca by Amazonian shamans.

And hey look, I just found this: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/01/30/chuchuhuasi-amazon-love-potion/

Thorns Have Roses
22-07-2013, 08:17
Great find ZFC!


Perhaps "minor psychedelic" is a term we could start using here?

It would be an interesting avenue of discussion. It could be all ponderous and slow, just the way a pipe/cigar smoking fellow like me prefers. The whiz-wham electronic extravaganza of alphabet soup psychedelics taken willy-nilly by reckless/feckless youth holds less appeal with each passing season.

RhythmSpring
23-07-2013, 08:16
The whiz-wham electronic extravaganza of alphabet soup psychedelics taken willy-nilly by reckless/feckless youth holds less appeal with each passing season.

Agreed. My most profound and healing psychedelic sessions were those that were serene and gentle, not the ones with mental fireworks.

bloodshed344
23-07-2013, 08:32
Great find ZFC!



It would be an interesting avenue of discussion. It could be all ponderous and slow, just the way a pipe/cigar smoking fellow like me prefers. The whiz-wham electronic extravaganza of alphabet soup psychedelics taken willy-nilly by reckless/feckless youth holds less appeal with each passing season.

Great sentence man. I love alphabet soup though, I want a drug combination that has every letter of the alphabet in it!

We'll need some X and LSZ first...

Solipsis
17-12-2015, 17:40
To dig up a long lost thread so to speak...

Who of you here cultivates their own ethnobotanical species?

I grow and harvested recently from Calea Zacatechichi (leaf), Silene Capensis (measly root, and seed) and Salvia Div (leaf, flowers will probably amount to nothing) .. what I intend to do with them is another thing altogether ;)

Madrus
07-02-2016, 18:09
Have we discovered any of Kratom's effects on vascular dilation, blood pressure, etc? It consistently stops my friend's nosebleeds, then when he comes off it, it's "nosebleed city" for a few days.

AnanasBannana
07-02-2016, 21:22
Don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but I've tried Blue Lotus tea

Solipsis
11-02-2016, 13:28
Have we discovered any of Kratom's effects on vascular dilation, blood pressure, etc? It consistently stops my friend's nosebleeds, then when he comes off it, it's "nosebleed city" for a few days.

Yes actives in kratom affect adrenergic receptors (mainly a2), and levels of norepinephrine and epinephrin are elevated in the body as a result. This besides anxiety also has vascular effects, tightening blood vessels / cappilaries such as in the nose, stopping the bleeds... Then coming off it, there may be some sort of rebound.

The stimulant action seems to be a bit complex, as is the makeup of actives in kratom. And some effects may be contradictory as a major effect is of course the painkilling opioid action, which expectedly lowers heartrate and blood pressure while the adrenaline type neurotransmitter (catecholamine) increase will make heartrate and blood pressure higher.

Not to mention serotonergic effects and secondary/downstream effects of the painkilling action, further complicating the matter.

Shamandrums
13-02-2016, 16:07
Salvia can best be grown from cuttings, less than 2% of seeds are successful. Iboga root is the effective portion;it's always a collection issue but : Acacia acinacea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_acinacea) also contain DMT;Acacia angustissima (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_angustissima) meo5dmt (DMT (0.00012-0.00102%) and N-methyltyramine (0.00011-0.005%) 5-MeO-DMT tentatively identified by TLC in seeds;Acacia auriculiformis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_auriculiformis) 5meo in stem bark; Acacia berlandieri (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_berlandieri),Hordenine, tyramine and N-methyltyramine in leaves; 0.28-0.66% N-methylphenethylamine in leaves, other alkoloids suspected;Senegalia senegal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senegalia_senegal) 0.003% DMT in leaf;Acacia simplex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_simplex) (syn. A. simplicifolia) 3.6% alkaloids from leaves and stem bark (40% NMT, 22.5% DMT, 12.7% 2-methyl-tetrahydro-β-carboline, and traces of N-formyl-NMT which might be an artefact of extraction);Acacia roemeriana (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Acacia_roemeriana&action=edit&redlink=1), 0.036% alkaloids from leaves, including β-methyl-phenethylamine, tyramine and N-methyl-tyramine; Hawaiian Baby Woodrose,Argyreia nervosa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyreia_nervosa) Seeds contain high amounts of LSA (also known as d-lysergic acid amide, d-lysergamide, ergine, and LA-111), often 50-150X the amounts found in Ipomoea violacea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipomoea_violacea);;.Nymphaea caerulea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymphaea_caerulea) Recent studies have shown Nymphaea caerulea to have psychedelic prop;;Leonotis leonurus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonotis_leonurus)- leaves and flowers (most concentrated) contain Leonurine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonurine). reminiscent of marijuana;;Blue Lotus (Egypt) DMT Dig them plants!!!

Shamandrums
13-02-2016, 16:17
Don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but I've tried Blue Lotus tea

Yes, Blue Lotus... viewed as sacrament by Pharaohs, seen in art/glyphs & source of DMT. They know now cocaine has been found in mummy dna & that how could this be, with no contact was known to central / south America. I would think, with the sea faring abilities, a 2 week trade wind trip likely occurred via accident once or twice! As DMT seems to influences their ideas, might ayahuasca have rode over...off topic..lol.