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View Full Version : SECONDARY WITHDRAWAL...opiods..?



Tongue
03-04-2005, 03:24
ok, im curios as o how long any of you have experienced the seconday withdrawal symptoms upon stopping opiods...by seconday withdrawal, i mean TIREDNESS, LOW tolerance for PAIN, DEPRESSION, BOREDOM, INSOMNIA, and tht "zombie-esque" feling...how long have u experienced these symptoms??

there seems to be alot of conflicting info when it ces to secondary ithdrawal, and the time it takes opiod receptors(yer natural ones) to repair themselves back to normal...i have talked to seeral docs/specialists about this, and some say it takes anywhere from 4-6 weeks, and 2 have even saidthere is studies that show it can take up to 18 months!!!!!u read that right....seems to be the most common timeline is abut 2-3 months to go backto feeling normal...then again, some claim you will never be normal ever again...

which brings me to another question, is there actual studies that show ones natural opiod receptors can permanently be lowered thru long term opiod use??

als, does anyone know the average time zone in which RELAPSE usually occurs??i imagine it would be within that 1-2 onths of being sober, but im not totally sure...

Tri-nity
03-04-2005, 05:37
I believe it.
After my three years of weekly opiate use I feel my receptors may never return to their full capacity. I'm I depressed about this? No. I had a lot of good times with all the morphine, methadone, oxy, and vicodin/loricet.
But if I go more than three months without any opiate I feel perfectly fine.

Tri-nity
03-04-2005, 05:40
It's like that Narvana lyric "And I forget just why I taste, oh yeah, I guess it makes me smile"
I believe after long periods of heavy use you can probably regain 95-98% capacity but never full receptor capacity, though this is JUST MY OPINION.

Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.

DexterMeth
03-04-2005, 06:16
Originally posted by Tri-nity
Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.
I agree.

synchrojet
03-04-2005, 07:08
The issue of secondary withdrawals really doesn't apply to opiates in the same way it would to benzos. I know that the acute symptoms of opioid withdrawal are generally shortlived (< 1 week), and that the mental cravings seem to disappear not too terribly long after that, provided that there is no excess external stress. Granted, I can only speak from a short term use standpoint (80-120mg/day oxy for eight weeks or so), but I have yet to experience anything like the horrific benzo withdrawals from stopping valium intake of 50-80mg/day for the better part of a year. THAT was awful, and I must say that even over a month later I still have lingering effects (voices and tremors, akastesthia, insomnia, paranoia, etc.). Believe me, if I knew what was in store for me with that I would never have eaten a valium pill to begin with. Those of you who have never experinced a benzo withdrawal take heed: Opioid withdrawals are easy in comparison. Unpleasant, but not the nightmare of the benzo withdrawal.

himynameis
03-04-2005, 08:14
Originally posted by Tri-nity
It's like that Narvana lyric "And I forget just why I taste, oh yeah, I guess it makes me smile"
I believe after long periods of heavy use you can probably regain 95-98% capacity but never full receptor capacity, though this is JUST MY OPINION.

Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.

I agree as well.

HeadyNuggets
03-04-2005, 09:30
I would say at least a full month to feel 85-90% normal. This is after five years of using. After using daily for a few years opiates can really leave you with a dark backlog of psychological issues needing to be addressed and integrated.

The acute withdrawal is generally about a week and can be shortened with the use of loperamide. The acute withdrawal, however hellish, is not the hardest part. It's much more difficult to stay clean.

Never had any problems with benzo's, and I've eaten plenty. They just don't have near the same psychological lure as opiates.

DexterMeth
03-04-2005, 10:05
Imagine having a WD from opiates AND benzos at the same time.

HeadyNuggets
03-04-2005, 19:17
I imagine that would include massive anxiety.

davesoviet
03-04-2005, 19:56
Even if I dont use for 3 months I can still gobble 80-90mg of Oxycodone in a sitting. For I figure with me there is some "permanent" tolerence.

I've gone up to around 6 months without any opiates (or drugs asides alcohol and nicotine, period).

My opiate tolerance seems to be permanently outrageous. However, the one tolerance that does lower significantly is my tolerance to histamines. Even if it's been months since using opiates and I can't seem to use enough to really get high, I will itch so badly that I'll end up making myself bleed from scratching.

B9
03-04-2005, 21:37
Oh yes remember it fondly[not] i reckon i was tired ,listless physically drained etc for about 4 months, in fact i got so depressed that i started to do gear again, although there was an outside factor which was contributing significantly to the depression,that said life seemed a weary struggle day after day.So i can't give you a finish date for this"secondary withdrawl"scenario but a few months at least .I believe that the length and severity of the addiction is a big factor in the length and severity of the symptoms.

Tongue
05-04-2005, 02:15
SYNCHROJET-bro, go on METHADONE maintenance, have them dose you at 150 mgs a day for a few yeas, and then stop COLD TURKEY, and then tell me if it is just UPLEASANT...i have seen someone kick a methadone habit like this, and it was painful for me to see them like that, so fort you to jus say its EASY kicking opiods compared t benzos is just lame...im not doubting that benzos suck ass when kicking, but to say that it makes opiod withdrawal look easy is just overboard...i think it comes down to the indivdual...mysef, i have taken bags and bags of valiums/xanax over the years, had xtremely cheap supply, and neve had a habit, not even an inkling of dependancy..my lure are the opiods...like i said, we all handle withdawals/pain/anguish differently, so...

also, im curious, u know that sever depression that sometime accompanies opiod withdrawal, is this basically the same way a clinically depresed person feels?if so i feel for them!!

swybs
05-04-2005, 02:59
I used for many years, and while the last couple months (10+) seem to have been me attempting to quit, I can honestly say that I think that I am there. I use bupe occasionally, though I feel Itchy Skratchy's posts (I think it was him or her) that the stomach cramps are pretty harsh from WD. To be honest, I can't tell you how long, since I am open to other drugs to attempt to offset the pure depression, tiredness, etc.

Another poster mentioned the dark backlog of psych issues, after daily use for more than 9 years, I think it takes major readjusting to get back to normal (again, I am not there).

It is like everything, there are good times and bad. I honestly think that the bad times are what took me so long to get where I am at now (which, I agree, is no where near perfect, but for me it is like nirvana--not the band). Unfortunately, the bad times hit me like multiple rain drops, but I actually welcome them because they are helping to prepare me with everyday life in the future. Simply put, opiates are the easiest defense mechanism one can reach for, once they have for looong periods of time.

Now, I have gone on a few vacations and tried to allow myself some opiates, only to feel unfulfilled and wasteful. And, while I never was hooked on H, I can attest to having had a very serious pill addiction.

But, yea...it is day by day. And really, if--in a perfect world--everything goes good and you haven't destroyed your life (and have to face repercussions), it can be done. Me, I am done with the ball and chain. I am done with the waking up and feeling like shit--the times when I might be tight in the pocket but need to score and thus fall into poor judgement behavior. I don't know--it feels like an awakening and it is hard to explain. I actually, just until a couple weeks ago, had oxy 80mgs laying around and didn't even think to use them. My biggest fear was getting over this and having something traumatic happen--eg, loss of a parent or loved one--and falling into it again, so I try and make myself as aware as possible about all the repreccusions.

I also think that, after a certain number of years, a portion of users get to a junction that I am at. When I said I tried to quit 10 months or more ago, that is only dedicated attempting to quit. I actually had prolly had the idea in the back of my head for 2-3 years before that, but always made crazy, I mean crazy, justifications for my actions (eg, hard day, difficulty with friends, fight with loved ones). My newest aid (and oldest, since I used this since I was very young), is to remember that someone, somewhere, always has it worse and I have no justification for numbing the pain, when someone, somewhere else is 1000 times worse off with no support or anything. I guess it boils down to thinking about the positive things you have going in on your life and embracing them (in an almost corny, yet effective way).

so, ending ramble, remember and constantly embrace the positive...it can always be worse...and, let's be honest, a bunch of us went this route because we suffered from one form or another of depression BEFORE we started abusing drugs...maybe this state we are reentering is simply forgotten standard fare, but now we have to deal with it in positive ways....


edited to add--I hope this doesnt sound like an antidrug rant--I am 100% prodrugs, just not pro me being addicted....

swybs

edarrin
05-04-2005, 19:29
so, ending ramble, remember and constantly embrace the positive...it can always be worse...and, let's be honest, a bunch of us went this route because we suffered from one form or another of depression BEFORE we started abusing drugs...maybe this state we are reentering is simply forgotten standard fare, but now we have to deal with it in positive ways....

This is very true. In my experience it seems as though those that end up using chemicals destructively:
a) didn't start out that way
b)usually have some emotional baggage they haven't dealt with yet and it often predates their addiction. In other words , there is a reason people use. If it becomes a coping mechanism then they stop learning how to cope with out the use of their drug of choice. That is where the 12 step groups can come in handy. I used AA to get sober before as I had to relearn how to live. How to recognize and deal with my feelings as they are without the use of chemicals. Not easy...but doable

Personally, I was/am so wrapped up in my own shit that I often forget the needs of others. And I have to work to keep a positive attitude and to be grateful for what I do have.

HeadyNuggets
05-04-2005, 22:49
Swybs, very well said, I agree 100%. Its very easy when things get shitty to say fuck it and go score, but inevitably this leaves you in an even worse position. I used for five years, quit for 8 months, then started using only occasionally, yeah right! Before long (a couple days) I could use as much as I used to before I quit. The tolerance never goes far away.

Now I still fight with this on again off again bullshit. When I am clean awhile I automatically assume I can use occasionally without repercussions, even though I know I am wrong. And when I stay clean really long (months) I begin to have intense, haunting dreams, calling me back to the abyss. I guess I will fight with this the rest of my life.

I have done many many other drugs with no problems. What makes opiates so different? Who would've thought it?

DexterMeth
05-04-2005, 22:52
Originally posted by HeadyNuggets
I have done many many other drugs with no problems. What makes opiates so different? Who would've thought it?

yep. That's the strange thing about heroin/opiates. It's not even that great of a drug...but it keeps calling your name...even in your dreams.

Tongue
06-04-2005, 02:37
^yep, i wonder what is the true "cause" behind the crazy relapse rate with OPIODS...from all ive read and heard, im starting to think it must have something to do with

1-person who had lower than normal opiod/endorphin levels to begin with, even before using drugs, therefore once they found opiods, they felt "normaL" or fully fuctional..i have spoke to way too many people who have said this(im this way as well), not that opiods put me in a dreamland every time i took them, but they allowed me to enjoy life more, i functioned BETTER while on the, and felt normal on them..
2-people who use opiods for extended periods of tie have PERMANENTLY suppressed their natural endorphin/opiod levels, so therefor no mater how long they stayclean, they NEVER feel normal, thus they keep going back to whichever opiod...

surely there must be research/studies done on long term opiod uers and their natural chemical makeup...

swybs
06-04-2005, 03:08
^^^ the crazy thing is I used more for the "normal" feeling as opposed to the nod. I suppose this is why H never appealed to me as much as some of the less strong opiates (like oxy). Stranger yet, I would dose throughout the day, but always low (relatively) doses, so as not to be completely gone but to feel "normal" I could dwell on this forever, as I imagine I will--fucking shit. But, tongue is right--you could put unlimited coke, e, speed, etc in front of me but I would show restraint....opiates, on the other hand...well...enough said.

However, I think a turning point occurs when the bad outweighs the good (as heady said)--the crazy thing is that EVEN when this happens, the mind (and I categorize most BLers in OD as intelligent, which makes it harder) comes up with the craziest justifications. ahhh, soooooo tired of this. Regardless, I am happy to report that I am still not going that route...

swybs

Tongue
07-04-2005, 02:58
i agre SWYBS, i ws the same way wth OPIODS..i was very responsible user, only used enuff to affect me in a positive manner and that was it..now, when i hit the iv heroin, that was another story..i didnt enjoy the high as much as lighter opiods but the addiction seemed 10 times as intense...

kapheen'
07-04-2005, 06:33
I'm curious as to whether or not one could avoid or trade the post with-drawl symptoms for something else. I just recently came off of 9 months of methadone use. And after the with-drawls finally stopped (over a month of with-drawls). I felt good for about a week, then I started feeling like complete shit. So I've been using very small doses of hydrocodone and oxycodone, not to get high, but rather for a mood boost. I'm maintaining sobriety and not feeling like an absolute zombie. I figure if I can keep this up for another month and when I do actually stop completely I wont suffer the post with-drawl symptoms to the same severity as I would have from a 200mg methadone habit.

I don't know how this is going to work, but hopefully to my benefit.

I'm not using every day. 1-2 times a week. It keeps me from feeling like ass and I'm no longer addicted to any point where I experience any physical or mental with-drawls.

I'm doing very well, in my opinion. I just hope this works like it seems it should.

I'm curious as to what people think about this idea, as long as I can keep maintaining like this. It's been close to two months since I've got high. And, honestly, it doesn't bother me one bit. I've come to a point where I feel the opiate/opioid high isn't all that great. It dulls everything in life, emotions, social activity, motivation, SEX!!. And I used to love getting a nice piece of ass. I really feel as though it just doesn't do it for me any longer.

Tongue
07-04-2005, 06:52
well KAPHENN, im sure that taking a wak OPIOD when you are withdrawing from METADONE would make it easier, BUT u say you are at the point where you dont suffer frm withdrawals, but yet you say you take the occasional OPIOD to get rid of the "zombie" feeling...thatzombie feeling IS secondary opiod withdrawal....im going thru it right now(methadone) and although i thought about taking weak opios to help me function remotely normal, all it would do i PROLONG the nasty depression and mindfuck that comes wwith stopping opiods..

hmm, when i take opiods, i get MOTIVATED and very SOCIAl....strange how everyone responds didfferently to the same drugs..

what interests me is if one had a bad PIOD habit, and they stopped, but started taking methemphetamine, or snorting coke, or whataver, if this would kill the majority of the withdrawals from the opiod...wht i basically mean is when ya start detoxing from opiods, if you went on a speed/cocaine binge for about 5-6 days, if by the the 7th day, you would still feel shitty???

swybs
07-04-2005, 07:30
yes and no...the trouble reoccurs at day 9 and 12, etc. I hope that answer makes sense, I will elaborate tomorrow...too drunk to see screne....

swybs

synchrojet
07-04-2005, 07:35
TONGUE --

That sounds pretty bad. I'm not into dicksizing when it comes to withdrawals, as I know that my opioid withdrawals have never been too severe. The worst were from two months of oxy at roughly 80mg/day, and I found a remedy for them that has worked twice, which I posted.

That being said, I must admit that the benzo withdrawals amost scared me into the hospital, which would have translated to some very serious legal problems for me. I don't tend to panic (I have schizophrenia and can handle erratic thinking patterns/thoughts in general), but because benzos are not effective for me I had to take a lot to get any effect at all. True, I was not anywhere near negrogesic's levels, but even 60-80-mg valium daily can be a terrible habit to break. I respect anyone who has the courage to quit the type of methadone use you outlined. Gauging from the withdrawals from the mild oxy use, I know it must have been nearly unbearable. During my withdrawal, I had two seizures, one of which was very severe. It was primarily this aspect that caused so much additional fear. It kept going through my head that I was going to die from the withdrawal process, and to learn that it is indeed a possibility caused even more panic. By the time I learned about it form the doctor I had already gotten by the worst part, but if I had it to do again (I never will, I assure you) I would go to the ER.

high on stemz-nseeds
07-04-2005, 07:38
For me it was a month after physical withdrawal stopped, so like 40 days after quitting cold turkey methadone/oxy (50mg/100mg) daily for 9 months or so.

kapheen'
07-04-2005, 09:02
Early on in the beginning stage of my addiction I felt motivated and energetic, talkative or whatever. But after awhile, I would just take my dose and hate myself for ever getting myself into this opiate mess.

I'm not expecting to eliminate the secondary with-drawl effects. I'm hoping to make it more bearable.

Holdan Caulfield
07-04-2005, 13:22
I've kicked opiates numerous times. After getting on methadone I developed a problem with Ativan(they didn't test for it at the clinic, unless they had reason to believe you were doing it). I was using on average 10-12 2mg pills every morning with my dose of methadone( I worked my way up to this point). Both benzo and opiate withdrawal are both equally terrible in their own ways. Although, benzo w/d can be deadly, I have never wanted to use them again after quitting, unlike opiates.
I have experienced both benzo and methadone withdrawal together, and it was the worst experience of my life. I would never wish that on anyone.

GasFace
07-04-2005, 17:17
I know it all depends on the individual, but what is considered a high dose of benzo's? I have heard some folks mention 50-70mgs of benzo's a day - that seems really high to me and it is no wonder that there is w/d associated with this dose. I have been taking Klonopins off and on for about 5 years for anxiety and to sleep better - when I say off and on, I mean during the peak of my opiate addiction that I would not need to take Klonopins and would thus go without a dose for sometimes up to a week or two.

Now that I am off the opiates and on bupe I have gone back to the Klonopins, but only take them an 1 or 2 hrs before bed. I am prescribed 1.5mgs/day, which is nothing compared to others, but I wonder what the w/d's would be that are associated with this amount, if any at all. If I were continue using the Klonopins for let's say a year every day would I experience w/d's, and if so, would they be severe?

I really had no idea that benzo w/d can be so severe until I have read a few recent posts. After experiencing opiate w/d it kinda scares me a bit to think these benzo w/d's are something that I may need to go through someday...

high on stemz-nseeds
07-04-2005, 18:30
maybe life was always dull and boring, lacking in energy, especially after coming off a drug that made life feel a lot better...

maybe "secondary withdrawal" is just being sober again, with a slightly chemically altered brain that may or may not return to normal.

Tongue
08-04-2005, 04:14
ive thought asbout that high-on-stems, but everone around me easily is able to tell something isnt right with me..before drugs, sure i got bored quickly, but i was actually able to experience PLEASURE, whereas during secondary withdrawal, im basically a zombie, unable to experience any type of actual CALM/PLEASURE/SATISFACTION/PEACE in oneself..

thats the way i describe the opiod wtdrawal to people who hve never expeieced i...one sentence>>>total inability to experience any peace/calm/satisfaction/happiness/relaxation....now, if there are truly people who have experienced this fr an entire 19 months, FFFUUGGG, i woulda put bullet in my head by then...well, i woulda went back to the dope....lol

40oz
08-04-2005, 05:51
KICKING JUNK 101,

i was a heroin junky for 10 years. i've been clean now for 5 years. when i quite i was upto 4 g's a day.

if you've made the decision to quite. you must get yourself a game plan and you have to stick to it.

#1 you need to move to a different city. i don't really know anybody who managed to stay of junk for long if they didn't leave. if you have family or friends who are willing to be your support group and who don't use ANY drugs. then get your shit together and get the fuck out. and don't tell anybody where your going.

#2 don't take any drugs whats so ever. especially drugs engineered to suppress your withdrawls (methadone). thrust me its all bullshit you need to go through it. when the pain gets to be unbearable then jump into the shower and sit down. THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD. when i was kicking i would be sick for 3-4 weeks. the only time i slept was when i passed out cold from exaustion.

#3 i know your not going to want to eat. but you have to force youself to eat at least once a day. if you don't your looking at trouble and a prolonged withdrawl period. stick with fruits and vegetables. don't try and be a hero at IHOP.

#4 DON'T EVER THINK YOUR CURED. THERE IS NO CURE. Man, every day i wake up and i say "i will not get high today". Stay vigilant....you are the only one who could fuck it up.

#5 do not contact any of your old party crew. no matter who there are and no matter how much you miss them. misery love's company and they'll drag your back if you let them.

#6 once your feeling better then its time to get busy and stay that way. get a job, go to school, play sports. and you should do them in that order. you need to work 40 hours a week. you be suprised what working full time will do for you. once you adjusted to working say 3 weeks or so. basicly once you start getting paid. you should start taking some kind of class or start playing sports. i killed two birds with one stone and starting training in Jiu-Jitsu. i didn't think it would be possible but i'm about 6 month away from testing for my black belt.

#7 once you given youself at least 6 month to a year of standing on your own to feet. then its time to get a girl/boy friend. do not make the mistake of starting a relationship to soon. i repeat "once you given youself at least 6 month to a year of standing on your own to feet".

good luck and stay true to yourself.....

swybs
08-04-2005, 06:02
true all of the above, truth.

swybs

vicodelicious
08-04-2005, 07:49
40oz,

that was written so well.

It's all true kids...

twgburst
08-04-2005, 08:52
Get the fuck out of here with your 12 step BS. Not everyone is the same, and any program or idea that lumps all addicts into a big pile and generalizes isn't giving people the benefit of the doubt. First off opiate addiction is totally different than cocaine, weed, or any other non physically addictive substance, and all the physically addictive substances are different as well. The reason why people don't get clean is cause they don't want to. Their is a reason why so many people go back, and it is more than craving a substance, its craving the opiate high. If your addiction is so bad that you fuck people over, even your friends than you should probally find anyway possible to get clean, shit NA might be a cult, but its better to be a drone than a thieving drug addict. If drugs were legal though, I think it would be better off for all these people. The closest thing is methadone, and its a good thing if you wanna do it til you die, otherwise I'd run til bupe gets cheaper.

HeadyNuggets
08-04-2005, 17:18
Good advice 40oz. Ultimately deciding to quit may take uprooting your whole life and starting over elsewhere. This is the only method that worked for any good legth of time for me as well.

The problem is when your at work one day and your new co-worker is railing oxy's. Your having a bad day, watching your co-worker get high, and of course that little voice in your head says "you can do a little, its ok" and then, well you know the rest...

My point is, even if you eliminate all sources of opiates from your life, you must be constantly vigilante against the dark lady, she will find you.

swybs
08-04-2005, 17:26
twgburst, it may be true that programs have agendas, but if it works for some, so be it (remember, some people are extremists, and addicts tend to be that type of personality). Anyway, hopefully, you don't need to do all of those for the rest of ones' life. Anyway, whatever helps someone is good advice, in my opinion.

Swybs

GasFace
08-04-2005, 17:27
Originally posted by twgburst
The closest thing is methadone, and its a good thing if you wanna do it til you die, otherwise I'd run til bupe gets cheaper.

Not sure I understand your comment about bupe. The price of bupe is nothing compared to the amount of money that you end up blowing on dope, oxy, or any opiate for that matter. Plus, my insurance covers most of it. I spend no more than $100 a month on bupe and dr.'s visits together, whereas I would spend upwards of 2k/month on oxy.

swybs
08-04-2005, 17:56
^^^ and then some--oxy, I argue, for those with high tolerances, can be nearly--if not more--expensive than dope (even providing you weren't buying nick and dime bags of dope)...goddamned oxy. goddamned purdue. ah, what am I saying, goddamned me! but damn, purdue, why you got to go and make dem pills so pretty...

and btw, if you are paying too much for bupe, shop around. The doctors and their prescribing practices vary greatly (without getting into too much detail).

swybs

junksick
08-04-2005, 18:05
Originally posted by 40oz
when the pain gets to be unbearable then jump into the shower and sit down. THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT WILL MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD

Whoah, I thought I was the only one. Why is this so? I've only gone through serious withdrawals once (from seed tea and benadryl use, believe it or not) and a super hot shower while I lay back and let the water hit my stomach was the only thing that would take away the pain.

hazejunk
08-04-2005, 18:13
^^because the hot water relaxes you mussels....
for my the showers where the onely way to relax for about 20 min.....

40oz
09-04-2005, 04:43
Originally posted by twgburst
Get the fuck out of here with your 12 step BS. Not everyone is the same, and any program or idea that lumps all addicts into a big pile and generalizes isn't giving people the benefit of the doubt. First off opiate addiction is totally different than cocaine, weed, or any other non physically addictive substance, and all the physically addictive substances are different as well. The reason why people don't get clean is cause they don't want to. Their is a reason why so many people go back, and it is more than craving a substance, its craving the opiate high. If your addiction is so bad that you fuck people over, even your friends than you should probally find anyway possible to get clean, shit NA might be a cult, but its better to be a drone than a thieving drug addict. If drugs were legal though, I think it would be better off for all these people. The closest thing is methadone, and its a good thing if you wanna do it til you die, otherwise I'd run til bupe gets cheaper.

LISTEN MAN,

its not about a 12 step religion kinda shit. its just a smart way of building confidence and giving yourself time. this method took me years to perfect. it works and and should work with most junkies out there. i realise that every body is different and everybody's situation differs. but you gotta start somewhere so you may as well start with something that has a proven track record.

please don't take this as a a chance to start an argument. not only was i an 10 year H junky i also was a 20 year drug addict. i started using drugs when i was 8 years old. now that doesn't make me some kind of hero. i really wish i never started in the first place. i've wasted alot of time in and out of prison. i even spent 2 years in a coma. and when it comes down to it man all you have is 80 years or so to live your life. don't live it like i did.

if any of you need somebody to talk to just message me and i'll be there for you. this may sound kind of corny but i've been there and i'm here to help. shit i may as well do something with this knowledge.

fight brothers and sisters..........FIGHT
:X

paradoxcycle
09-04-2005, 04:52
Everyone take a deep breath please. Relax.

banksy
09-04-2005, 13:21
my last time kicking never seems to be the last time...maybe it will not be gone until I am gone

40oz
09-04-2005, 16:55
Originally posted by banksy
my last time kicking never seems to be the last time...maybe it will not be gone until I am gone

far to often that is the only way out for some........

Tongue
10-04-2005, 02:40
i would like to see some factal stats that follow opiod users habits, their relapse rates, rates of overdose, % of those who find sobriety etc etc..ive heard numbers and none of them are positive, but stats can be rigged...

D_DOOD
11-04-2005, 14:57
http://www.heroinhelper.com/sick/after_detox.shtml

TheLoveBandit
08-06-2009, 03:54
w/d project bump