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applesbliss
28-02-2005, 12:19
Ever since I was young, I've thought obsessively about death being 'final'. When I was six years old I would ponder in bed at night before falling asleep how after I died, death would be final. That I would never exist in any way again. I'm talking about everything that comprises 'me' (or anyone) -- right now.

I simply can't buy into the concept of an 'afterlife' or 'Heaven' or 'Hell'. Though I would be willing to believe, if it seemed logical. But I think that humans are animals, albeit smarter than a dog. But a dog dies and is finished, and thus, I assume that the same is true for a human.

Considering that some humans use to believe that 'Heaven' was in the clouds. And since we, as a human race have disproved that in the clouds is not a Heaven, but rather outer space lies beyond the clouds and our atmosphere. When I recognize the billions of galaxies in the known universe with solar systems (extrasolar) outside of our own. I can't help but assume that other planets harbor life, but we can't specifically see it yet. It's not only a question of 'why do we matter', but in terms of death, why does it matter if humans on Earth die? What special circumstances will happen to us, that wouldn't happen to 'type x' species on planet 'far, far away'?

Physically, my brain is in control of my body. After 'I' (or anyone) dies, my brain will cease to function. How can 'I' (or anybody) still exist after this happens?

Some people believe in spirits and ghosts. However, there's no real proof of this, so how can there be any proof of any sort of afterlife?

Back to my original point at the start of this thread. When I think about everything that 'I' am being 'lost forever'. I become quite scared. Knowing that I exist right now, but knowing that my existence won't be forever is quite frightening.

PGTips
28-02-2005, 12:27
I have the same opinion as you, that when we're dead that it, gone, nothing left. Once the electrical patterns in our brain decay and stop we have ceased to exist.

I do not find it terribly scary. I've had this view for most of my life and think about it every now and again. Would I want to live forever in the afterlife? No. Why? Because living forever isn't some kind of wonderful idea, it will eventually become terribly terribly boring. You'll have done all there is to do, seen everything, etc. As Tolkein put in The Silmarillion
Ironically, immortality is a mixed blessing. As age after age rolls by, even the Valar may envy men their release from the world.
I've accepted I've a short time in existance, and that just says "Do as best you can in the time you've got". I don't deny I'd like to live longer. A few hundred years of being physically and mentally fit would be nice, gives a chance to do a couple of different things with your life, but forever? No thanks.

applesbliss
28-02-2005, 12:31
I just have the notion that living forever would be a good thing. Really. I feel like I could think of an infinite amount of things to do. Even 'boredom' sounds better than not existing at all.

Alas, it's not possible. Though some scientists suggest that the technology to 'life forever' will be possible within the next 100 years. Either way, nothing could prevent a person from being murdered, or from some tragic car accident :\.

Void
28-02-2005, 13:13
You wont be the same but that doesnt mean you wont be better off. Death is a transition, a change, but I think your core self continues on. Some stuff are better left behind.

SweetIrony, Inc.
28-02-2005, 13:46
hmm..

living forever may sound like a "good thing" and be a pleasurable idea.

Conscousness forever may be a "nice thought"

but come on...is it really realistic?

Without the chemical reactions and physiological processes occuring in your brain, do you reallly think you will be able to relate an experience?

Afterall, experience is simply the processing and interpretation of physical experience...

How can you describe a spiritual experience? Does your consciousness...something we have not proven to be experienced sans biological processes...carry on to another dimension?

Is there some other world or dimension that your entity influences...that you have control over?

Really, what is the point in believing that there is another world we can exist in? What are we going to do there? Do we all go there? Is it just another world (physical world) that we can fuck up like we're doing this one?

And if so...is there an end to that experience? Is there somewhere more evolved and more enlightened than that place? what makes that place the ultimate experience?

Come on... be realistic. Faith is the belief in that which can not be proven...and it's simply human's answer to that which can not be proven.

But everything can be proven...it's just that we don't want to believe some of it. Therefore we construe some idea of a deity and an afterlife that reassures us and gives us hope that the end of our physical consciousness is not the end of our influence in the world.

I really believe we are just a product of a physical process...just a cycle of biological and physical processes that has created beings which pursue efficiency.

We seek pleasure...and true natural pleasure comes in the form of enhanced survivabilty.

It's as simple as that.

I'll discuss any arguments.

As for now, i'm tired.

j33buscr1p3s
28-02-2005, 15:22
I try not to think about it. Maybe there's an outside chance that there is an afterlife. Either way, it's not bad. If I cease to exist, it can't be bad, because I won't exist to make a judgement about it. If there's an afterlife, then I still exist and that's alright, too.

johnmortons
28-02-2005, 15:47
You wont be the same but that doesnt mean you wont be better off. Death is a transition, a change, but I think your core self continues on. Some stuff are better left behind.
that's about as plausible as this statement is vague

no easter bunny, sorry

socks
28-02-2005, 16:21
i don't think you cease to exist. i think rather you join the great 'life-force' that makes up everything, you become everything and nothing.

Leg
28-02-2005, 16:31
yea, i get scared of death a lot
i also believe that, theoretically, i think i could live forever
i think if your chakras are open (for lack of a better/easier explanation) you can stay alive
...
i see no reason to die
i mean
i'm an optimist
(even though my life sucks lately)

is life the opposite of death?
or is life merely hanging in the middle between two sides of death? :) pendulum

applesbliss
28-02-2005, 17:00
Originally posted by socks
i don't think you cease to exist. i think rather you join the great 'life-force' that makes up everything, you become everything and nothing.

What do you mean "the great 'life-force' that makes up everything"? Is an inanimate stone, for example, made up of this 'life-force'?

applesbliss
28-02-2005, 17:02
Originally posted by Leg
yea, i get scared of death a lot
i also believe that, theoretically, i think i could live forever
i think if your chakras are open (for lack of a better/easier explanation) you can stay alive
...
i see no reason to die
i mean
i'm an optimist
(even though my life sucks lately)

is life the opposite of death?
or is life merely hanging in the middle between two sides of death? :) pendulum

I don't believe that we're "hanging" in between life and death. We're definitely 'alive' right now, there's no denying that fact. The cycle of life dictates that we're born and then we die. So, it's a cycle, or a process. We are just like the dog (or any other animal), where he or she is born and then dies.

The question that I've brought up is: Whether you're afraid of being gone forever.

monkeyjunky
28-02-2005, 18:26
it would be extremely scary if you had left things undone, or could never reconcile relationships.
Luckliy, i believe in a higher power.
applesbliss - i hate all that kind of "life force" talk too, but its really hard to describe in non-newage terms. Especially for those who don't like the idea of a "God".
Essentially the same thing though, particularly the God=love idea.

Acidfiend
28-02-2005, 19:17
Originally posted by applesbliss
What do you mean "the great 'life-force' that makes up everything"? Is an inanimate stone, for example, made up of this 'life-force'?

Yes. I believe that what we define "life" as is simply a more creative expression of the "source." Whatever it is that is responsible for the birth and existance of the universe is responsible for all aspects of it. Any differences between "things" in it are superficial, everything comes from the same source (whatever it is that defines the logical rules that govern nature) and the same source materials.

From the very beginning there was evolution. Some scientists think that sub-atomic particles (quarks, strings, whatever) actually evolved themselves from more basic components in the first nanoseconds of the universe. Those particles then "evolved" to form hydrogen and stars, which then exploded and gave us coolor, larger and more complex atoms. Those atoms then evolved to form molecules, and some molecules evolved into contained systems that were able to store energy and metabolize organic materials (and, in some cases, non-organic materials). The rest is history, and as we progress the system gets more creative with the advent of the macro-organism of industry, culture, society. But its all coming from the same source, following the same rules in the same system composed of the same basic materials.

I used to think that consciousness is entirely a product of neuronal communication, and to a great extent it is true. However, I now believe that there is a very basic form of consiousness from which all "individuality" stems from...this bare feeling of "being" that has no personality or identity attached to it. I believe that the illusion of individuality and seperateness is just this unified feeling of "being" subjected to a different set of circumstances (life). When your life ends, so does your neuronal connections and thus your individuality and personhood. But I do not believe that the "being" goes away, rather it becomes re-attached to the original source from which it stemmed from. Hindus refer to it as the "Dharma", a great fire of which every organism is a "spark." Personally, I don't think that life is anything special to distinguish itself from the source. Everything is an expression of the source; solids, liquids, gases.. everything. Life and consciousness are merely more creative expressions of it.

applesbliss
28-02-2005, 19:41
^ I dig what you're saying about 'the source'.

But I do feel like humans are more important than individual quarks, atoms, and gases. Of coarse, this feeling is based on my ego. Even if I'm returned to 'the source' after I die. I don't see how that relates to 'me' (or anyone) continuing on.

I know that this concept of 'the source' is deeper than I could imagine.

Yes, it's a romantic notion to scatter someone's ashes over the ocean to 'return them from whence they sprung'--made from the Earth, something bigger than the individual. Yet, I don't feel like that person (who's ashes were scattered) really continues on. Their existence has been finalized.

Acidfiend
28-02-2005, 20:28
Originally posted by applesbliss
^ I dig what you're saying about 'the source'.

But I do feel like humans are more important than individual quarks, atoms, and gases. Of coarse, this feeling is based on my ego. Even if I'm returned to 'the source' after I die. I don't see how that relates to 'me' (or anyone) continuing on.

I know that this concept of 'the source' is deeper than I could imagine.

Yes, it's a romantic notion to scatter someone's ashes over the ocean to 'return them from whence they sprung'--made from the Earth, something bigger than the individual. Yet, I don't feel like that person (who's ashes were scattered) really continues on. Their existence has been finalized.

I understand what you are saying. And, you are basically correct; once you die there will no longer be a "you." What is critical to understand is that "you" dont really exist as an individual, there is no "you." There appears to be a "you" because you have a seperate body container to house a brain that has been responding to different stimuli than every other body container out there. Fundamentally, however, I believe there is no "you" or "me" or "them," there is only "us."

And I'll also let you know a way to look at "your" death in a way that you wont be afraid. What follows is perhaps the most important lesson I learned on my DMT trips (and DMT has taught me many things). When you achive the full loss of "ego" and identity that is almost akin to death...it is nothing short of true freedom. What you and every being in the universe seeks is ultimate freedom, and life as we know it is a very restrictive cage. The laws of nature, the limitations of our bodies and minds, the tyranny of authority, the influences of people and events, and our ego-driven desires and fears are our prisons. These are the things that define you as who you are, and yet they are simultaneously the only things that are holding you back from true happiness and freedom. The only way you can be free of these things is to become seperate from your physical body, to be separated from all your memories and dreams and fears, to be separated from society and culture and the people you know. To be free you must be free of everything that defines you and who you are.

Which brings me to a related point, "heaven and hell." I do not believe in either, but what I do believe is that the concepts of heaven and hell are derived from different ways of interpreting death. I noticed this with differen't people's reactions to DXM and DMT. There are people who become so attached to the pleasures of existance and the satisfaction of feeding their ego that "losing" all of it results in a very traumatic and hellish experience. Everything they have ever loved or worked for or suffered through becomes meaningless, everything about them becomes meaningless, and without any greater purpose of meaning other than to satisfy their own ego (which is now dead) they torment themselves over their losses.
Then there are those like me, who (once getting over the fear that I just died) relish in the freedom and infinite sense of being in the moment with no past or future to be aware of. I learned to like it after studying Buddhism, which taught me that desire is the cause of suffering and having a pure mind (free of your bullshit) is the key to clairity and happiness.

Fear is also a cause of suffering in the world, probably the greatest one. Death (at least with our current state of technology) is imminent and unavoidable. Therefore, why cause yourself to suffer by fearing that which you cannot possibly avoid? If you are going to fear, fear something that will cause you and others to suffer that you can potentially change. Then MAKE those changes, and avoid suffering. Do not fear that which you cannot avoid, for the fear itself will cause you to suffer.

applesbliss
28-02-2005, 21:54
This is really great insight from you and also your experiences with DMT.


Fear is also a cause of suffering in the world, probably the greatest one. Death (at least with our current state of technology) is imminent and unavoidable. Therefore, why cause yourself to suffer by fearing that which you cannot possibly avoid? If you are going to fear, fear something that will cause you and others to suffer that you can potentially change. Then MAKE those changes, and avoid suffering. Do not fear that which you cannot avoid, for the fear itself will cause you to suffer.

Personally, about 50% of the time my fear of death is turned into something good. In the past I've used it as a motivating factor to live life 'in the moment' -- every day, every moment, and so forth. I've also used this fear as a way to decide and hone on what's most important to me.

The other 50% of the time is the 'horror' (not existing, etc..) side of dieing.

I am well versed with DXM experiences. I was quite heavily into DXM when I was a teenager. I posted my trip reports a long, long time ago on Bluelight :). In retrospect, and based on what you've said. I can conclude that I was probably too attached to my ego. DXM in high dosages certainly can result in egoless feelings and thought.


And I'll also let you know a way to look at "your" death in a way that you wont be afraid. What follows is perhaps the most important lesson I learned on my DMT trips (and DMT has taught me many things). When you achive the full loss of "ego" and identity that is almost akin to death...it is nothing short of true freedom.

I'm no stranger to psychedelics. I used LSD on occasion from 1999 till 2003. From 1999 till 2003, I was into the 'research chemicals' that helped to usher in the popularity of their discussion on Bluelight, especially in regards to 2C-T-7 and 5-MeO-DIPT. I also took three months off from things in 1999 to experiment with Salvia-Divinorum daily.

But DMT is one that I've always hoped to try, under the right circumstances mind you. Unfortunately, my resident country of choice at the moment doesn't let me have access to any interesting substances. But hopefully at some point in the future when I return to North America. I can get to experience what DMT is like :).


Then there are those like me, who (once getting over the fear that I just died) relish in the freedom and infinite sense of being in the moment with no past or future to be aware of. I learned to like it after studying Buddhism, which taught me that desire is the cause of suffering and having a pure mind (free of your bullshit) is the key to clairity and happiness.

Fear is also a cause of suffering in the world, probably the greatest one. Death (at least with our current state of technology) is imminent and unavoidable. Therefore, why cause yourself to suffer by fearing that which you cannot possibly avoid? If you are going to fear, fear something that will cause you and others to suffer that you can potentially change. Then MAKE those changes, and avoid suffering. Do not fear that which you cannot avoid, for the fear itself will cause you to suffer.

And I know the Buddha's teachings well. It's odd that I presently live in a Buddhist country, yet I'm so disconnected from the practice and teachings of it. When I first came to Asia a year and a half ago, I was 'all about' learning about Buddhism. Then I let that notion slide.

The highlight was definitely last June when I spent a month in Bodh Gaya (India) (where the Buddha first became 'enlightened'). If you ever consider going to India, I suggest you to go there. On a daily basis I visited all of the represented temples in Bodhgaya, including Burmese, Thai, Japanese, Korean, Tibetan, Chinese, Bangladeshi, and Bhutanese Buddhist temples. And I spent quite some time meditating, following in on various chants, talking with family Buddhists from all the world over, and doing circles around the great Mahabodhi temple built by the emperor Ashoka. A descendent of the original Bodhi tree is there :).

Also interesting was Saranath - where the Buddha first 'taught' his message of the 'Middle Way'. Saranath is only about 15 miles from the holy city of Varanesi (Beneres). The original 'Deer Park' is still there (in Saranath), along with a transcription of the Buddha's actual words in stone. There's a Jainist influence there in Saranath, because one of their prophets hailed from Saranath.

Damn, I always take my threads off-topic. Oh well. 8)

David
01-03-2005, 02:04
Revelations will come to pass, because christians have finally started to realize this, and since they are a culture based purely on reactionism, they will react, and repell anything they view to be inline with this train of thought, and seek early death, or passage by activating their whole death scene predicted by their great book of GOD's word.

Anyways that was a thought I had today, and then when I saw this thread, I decided to post it.

Draic
01-03-2005, 02:41
How do you know what happens to a dog after it dies ?
Have you seen through its eyes ?
Just because it has the label animal attached to it does not mean its consciousness goes on , in whatever form or way that it might.
Your ASSUMING that death is final , I just don't see what evidence your basing this assumption on.

In my opinion people believe in the soul based on their experience of it , ie. having left their body.Thats what my belief in it is based on.
You are assuming that your physical brain is the be all and end all.

Open your mind to the possibilities of other forms of existence beyond the physical.
If we can exist in a physical sense , then surely we can exist in other forms.
If this strand of existence is possible then why not others ?

IMHO the fact we exist at all proves anythings possible , we have already made the giant leap from nothing to something.

hyperborea13
01-03-2005, 05:29
Ya im with you on this one applebliss. I actually had the same thing going on. I'm a very scientific person, and believe that what we percieve as basic consciousness is a result of physical processes that occur in our heads. Once we die, this consciousness fades out. And this scares the living shit out of me.

I remember when I was a kid sometimes I'd be struck with this feeling that I've tried to put into words and failed miserably every time. The best I could explain is that I would feel, 'this is just life.' All of my experience, everything that I know and hold dear, is just a transitory series of chemical interactions. This hapened to me a lot when I was in the shower or just before I went to sleep.

Now, whenever I think of death, I tell myself that even though there isn't an afterlife, there is some sort of force in the universe, some sort of consioiusness, or something. Howerver, deep down I know, im dead, there is nothing.

I could probably give myself an anxiety attack thinking about it right now. But thank you, know I know I'm not the only weird person :)

Grim
01-03-2005, 06:00
I agree with pretty much everything Acidfiend said. I have held almost exactly the same views for the past few years.

I do believe there is a far deeper layer of reality that we cannot comprehend because it does not correspond with the way our senses perceive the world (ie., 3-dimensional world with time always moving forward).

Aside from that though, what's the point of fearing death? There was a time before you were born when you did not exist, at least not in your current state of consciousness. Besides, I do not think I would want to be alive forever, I would think that after a ertain point I would get tired of life.

We are all made out of the same stuff that makes up everything else in our universe, both matter and energy. In fact, The Holographic Universe ideas sound very appealing to me.

applesbliss
01-03-2005, 06:31
Originally posted by Draic
How do you know what happens to a dog after it dies ?
Have you seen through its eyes ?
Just because it has the label animal attached to it does not mean its consciousness goes on , in whatever form or way that it might.
Your ASSUMING that death is final , I just don't see what evidence your basing this assumption on.

In my opinion people believe in the soul based on their experience of it , ie. having left their body.Thats what my belief in it is based on.
You are assuming that your physical brain is the be all and end all.

Open your mind to the possibilities of other forms of existence beyond the physical.
If we can exist in a physical sense , then surely we can exist in other forms.
If this strand of existence is possible then why not others ?

IMHO the fact we exist at all proves anythings possible , we have already made the giant leap from nothing to something.

Based on scientific discussions and articles that I read online and in journals throughout the years. I believe that there could be other dimensions, or even other universes. A facet of existence that's beyond our own universe or 'world'. Yet, I can't imagine why humans on one planet would die and then somehow magically be transported to a different place. Our universe, as far as we know, is based on a set of laws. These laws cannot be broken in our universe, as far as we know. Therefore, we can't die and then have something fly out of our bodies on to another world.

It's been established in science that a person is made up of chemical impulses, atoms, etc. But these chemical impulses, atoms, etc.. are obviously not 'human' on their own. Otherwise, everything around us would be 'human'.

The "evidence" that death is final. Is all around us when living things die.

applesbliss
01-03-2005, 06:35
Sorry, actually one valid point that I didn't mention in my last reply goes back to what Acidfiend said earlier...

That humans have a habit of thinking of themselves as being separate from the rest of the universe. When actually, everything in the universe is all one and connected. Humans could not exist without there being other parts of the universe, without there even being water on this planet!

So, my rebuttal above does not factor in this point.

Belisarius
01-03-2005, 06:35
I believe in life after death, but the idea of oblivion is not frightening to me. It used to be, but not anymore. If I'm right, then it's all good. If I'm wrong, then I'll never know about it. The loss of "who I am" doesn't really concern me; if death is the end, then I should fear as much for my death as I do for an ant's, because my life ain't worth so much in the final analysis.

To rephrase a line in The Devil's Advocate: Life is like a bag of fucking bricks; all you have to do is set it down. That may sound cynical, but it's my POV.

Edit: I'm 25.

applesbliss
01-03-2005, 06:38
I'm curious if people would mind stating their age when they post in this discussion. I'm curious to see if there's some correlation between 'fearing death' or 'not fearing death' - and a person's age. Not that age is the only factor, but it's an important one.

Draic
01-03-2005, 06:43
To me the evidence that the death of the body is not the end , as i said above , comes from my consciousness leaving my body.I have expereinced this as have many others.You say you see living things all around you dying .Which brings me back to my original point .You have not expereinced death yet and have yet to find out if life does go on.You have not experienced the process of death and do not know what happens after, simply because you have not passed away yet.
My beliefs are based on my personal expereinces not objective observations of the death of other things whose existence and death you are not experiencing and therfore can't comment on with any authority.

yougene
01-03-2005, 06:46
The only thing there is to fear is fear itself.

Grim
01-03-2005, 07:07
Originally posted by applesbliss
I'm curious if people would mind stating their age when they post in this discussion. I'm curious to see if there's some correlation between 'fearing death' or 'not fearing death' - and a person's age. Not that age is the only factor, but it's an important one.

I am 21 years old. So who knows maybe I will start fearing death when I get old. But the fact of the matter is that I used to fear death when I was younger. As I formed ideas about the nature of existance in the recent years I do not fear dying. Not saying that I can override my instincts in the immediate life threatening situation, but when I think about it I am not afraid of losing everything that I now know, even if there is absolutely no existance after death, what is there to be afraid of if you are not there?

What are we really? Just a collection of matter and energy interacting. But its encompassed in a vessel that is our body. Think of it this way, we are like a cup of water, and death is the cup breaking. The water spills out and the ceramic shatters but in essense it is still the same thing, it just changed form. Our ego's only function is for survival, we need it to keep ourselves from harm. Many times when I experienced the dissolution of the ego, I realized that without it I feel liberated in certain aspects.

I am not sure if this sounded like senseless ramble, but I am tired as hell so I apologize if I did not express myself clearly.;)

mr_p
01-03-2005, 08:56
18 and LOVE life !

death??? banana??? rock ????

LIFE !! ashhharhharhhhahrh

mr_p
01-03-2005, 08:57
fearing death ?? i don't understand it so i can't really comment

i think when you beging to LIVE LIFE .... you don't really think about death in a fearful way

its more the awe of the unkown

WHATEVER WILL BE >....(SURELY) .... WILL BE

asmodeus256
01-03-2005, 09:37
death is just an illusion.

edit: i am 22 years old.

Beatlebot
01-03-2005, 23:18
I'm 24 and my ideas are very close to Acidfiends. I'm not afraid of death, but I am afraid of losing my life before I am ready, if that makes sense.

The only real difference is that I don't see life as a restrictive cage. I think that our different lives are the great spirit's (or energy force if you like) way of expressing itself and entertaining itself. So enjoy your life and the experience of it, for it is brief in the great scheme of things and you will only have a short time to be who you are now.

David
02-03-2005, 03:44
I'm 24, not that it matters.

Acidfiend
02-03-2005, 04:31
Originally posted by Beatlebot
I'm 24 and my ideas are very close to Acidfiends. I'm not afraid of death, but I am afraid of losing my life before I am ready, if that makes sense.

The only real difference is that I don't see life as a restrictive cage. I think that our different lives are the great spirit's (or energy force if you like) way of expressing itself and entertaining itself. So enjoy your life and the experience of it, for it is brief in the great scheme of things and you will only have a short time to be who you are now.

I agree. For some reason I excluded this, so I'm glad you brought it up. In my DMT experiences, the entities on the other side always seemed VERY interested (almost obsessive) in my body and my emotions, which clued me in to the importance of being alive. This life you live, that we all live, is the ultimate gift to our souls. The fact that, on top of the blessing of being living beings, that we are HUMAN beings, is even greater reason to be thankful every moment of your life. Our souls have beat odds you cannot possibly imagine, so be thankful that you get to have the experience. This may be the only chance you get.

bleedingheartcommie
02-03-2005, 07:14
It took me a long time to get over the fact that one day i would die and taht would be the end. But after I did, life was much better. Again I'd recomend reading "That to study philosophy is to learn to die" by montaigne. text (http://glad.best.vwh.net/montaigne/essay17.html)

Beatlebot
02-03-2005, 12:51
^^That's a philosophy about not learning philosphy8o

Whoah! What are you doing to my mind?8o You T&A guys are too much!

gloggawogga
02-03-2005, 19:23
To me there are to things here: 1) dying and 2) death its self.

I am 42 years old. Today, compared to when I was 18 years old, I am eating better, excersising better, using drugs much more conservatively and responsibly, managing stress better, and just in general doing much more to take care of my health. Yet despite all of these efforts I'm just not as healthy as I was when I was 18. Why? Becuase I'm dying, thats why.

Dying is the natural and inevitable process that steers us towards death its self. Whether we are aware of it or not, we've been dying since the day we were born. There is both a physical and spiritual aspect to this process of dying. The physical aspect is our aging bodies and the second law of thermodynamics which we observe in the world around us. The spiritual process is the intellectual/emotional process of understanding and accepting what is happening.

To me its seems the process of dying also serves to teach us about death its self. And if anything it all it has taught me that there is really nothing at all to fear in death its self. I mean with "I" not existing, what do "I" have to be afraid of? But the process of dying concerns me. The process of dying can be very painful, and not just physically but emotionally as well. But it doesn't have to be. It really depends on our selves whether we suffer or not, IMHO.

So the question for me is not so much about the finality of death its self but more along the lines of how to die gracefully.

applesbliss
02-03-2005, 19:28
Originally posted by gloggawogga
To me there are to things here: 1) dying and 2) death its self.

I am 42 years old. Today, compared to when I was 18 years old, I am eating better, excersising better, using drugs much more conservatively and responsibly, managing stress better, and just in general doing much more to take care of my health. Yet despite all of these efforts I'm just not as healthy as I was when I was 18. Why? Becuase I'm dying, thats why.

Dying is the natural and inevitable process that steers us towards death its self. Whether we are aware of it or not, we've been dying since the day we were born. There is both a physical and spiritual aspect to this process of dying. The physical aspect is our aging bodies and the second law of thermodynamics which we observe in the world around us. The spiritual process is the intellectual/emotional process of understanding and accepting what is happening.

To me its seems the process of dying also serves to teach us about death its self. And if anything it all it has taught me that there is really nothing at all to fear in death its self. I mean with "I" not existing, what do "I" have to be afraid of? But the process of dying concerns me. The process of dying can be very painful, and not just physically but emotionally as well. But it doesn't have to be. It really depends on our selves whether we suffer or not, IMHO.

So the question for me is not so much about the finality of death its self but more along the lines of how to die gracefully.

Wow. Thank you.

applesbliss
02-03-2005, 19:59
Originally posted by gloggawogga

So the question for me is not so much about the finality of death its self but more along the lines of how to die gracefully.

This statement begs for much discussion. From reading this thread and also the "How would you like to die?" thread. It seems apparent that the last thing many people would want is to die 'suddenly'. In that case, using "dieing" as you choose to use in place of "life". It hurts to imagine for anyone's death to entail being lost forever in a 'sudden' car crash or from a bullet. That would be tragic because it's sudden and the method would be despised. To be lost suddenly with being unprepared or without getting what we want. By far, I would much rather experience "dieing" (how you put it) than to not experience dieing at all. It seems besides death being final, the other thing that some of us fear of death is that it could occur anytime in an instant.

I wish sometimes that there could be some kind of universal guarantee or even an IOU that would grant anyone the opportunity to live to be 95 years old. That would be great, heh. I learn a heck of a lot as I grow and change. I'm sure that everyone does. We can not learn (even from a book) without having the opportunity to experience -- experience itself.

gloggawogga
03-03-2005, 04:12
I guess what I'm saying is that we are already dead, and how we live out our life is just how we go about accepting this. If you die quickly, you will have to take it in all at once, and it may be too painful to digest. OTOH if you die slowly, you can take it in slowly, and that my be painful too. Of course keep in mind, that subjective time is not the same as objective time. As with time dilation on strong psychedelics a few moments can stretch out to a very very long time. Maybe one with a heart attack dies as slowly, subjectively, as another with cancer.

Once, when I was 20 years old, I had plan for the rest of my life. The plan was that as soon as I got back to the college campus that I lived at and got a chance to do so without anyone noticing, I was going to go to a tall dormatory building on campus, jump off the balcony, and aim for pavement head first to my death. And that would be that. I would be done with my life. Obviously my plan for suicide didn't get carried out. All I can say is that while I was on my way to killing my self, something deeply profound came to me. And in that moment of realization, I saw that wasn't ready to face all that there is in dying while also realizing a deeper aspect of my 'self' that gave me reasons to want to live.

But the really ironic thing was the underlying reason for my wanting to kill my self. I wasn't happy with my 'life'. Why? I was getting to the part of my life where I had to grow up, realize my own limitations, the limitations of life, and its mortality. It was time for me to start learning how to get over my self. I think I can see now that by killing my self, I would have been jumping head first into the middle of what it was I was trying to run away from. In a way, I would say that time is an illusion that our minds create to keep from having to accept eternity all at once. And experience, that is just what time is filled with. Thus experience leads to the experience of dying, that is, a future that promises nothing, nothing at all. And we learn to cope with that.

Of course, there is no reason for us not to accept eternity for what it is. We are already dead. By accepting this, we are free.

genaro
03-03-2005, 12:49
anybody ever played to "death" when he was a young child? A game to experiment "an aspect of life" adults seemed to worry about and wouldn't talk about spontaneously as if they would rather want to forget about it...if I have been playing this "curiosity" game as a child, then I guess death isn't that bad because that means that a young child (someone with no rational fears) doesn't think to death in other ways that "a part of life". As said previously, the problem in life isn't suffering or death, the problem is fear that make us confused and keep us from seeing things clearly.

Raw Evil
03-03-2005, 13:02
I'm 19. I know death is inevitible and don't fear it.

But there's a hell of a lot I want to get done first, and to die young would be a disappointment - but on the other hand, what's there to *be* disappointed in the first place?

mezcalene
10-03-2005, 13:32
Death is an transition a passing into the next realm, a good way to look at things is to imagine your dying on your death bed, and ask your self , did i do with my life what i intened, am i happy with what i achieved, and if you have not then do it! i think the fear of death is not acomplishing what you set out to do.

[S]alvatore
10-03-2005, 14:54
Originally posted by applesbliss
Ever since I was young, I've thought obsessively about death being 'final'. When I was six years old I would ponder in bed at night before falling asleep how after I died, death would be final. That I would never exist in any way again.

Well until you do die, you will never know what happens to your soul, or if there is an afterlife. And when you do find out, only you will know. Now that you've made me think about it, it's pretty scary, possibly being a non entity after you die:\ .

SWOONPAPPY
11-03-2005, 08:06
Thanks a lot for some great replies, seriously. I might add later but for a while I think I'll just dwell on some of the thoughts already mentioned in here. :)

kubenzi
11-03-2005, 09:24
Ever since I was young, I've thought obsessively about death being 'final'. When I was six years old I would ponder in bed at night before falling asleep how after I died, death would be final. That I would never exist in any way again. I'm talking about everything that comprises 'me' (or anyone) -- right now


(Napoleon voice)LUCKY!!!!!!!!!

So thats what you thought about at night at 6?

no boogy man under the bed?

no vampire looking in your bedroom window?

mummies werent out in the kitchen eating your cocoa puffs?

no invisible-green predator swinging from hanger to hanger in your closet?

The good thing about these monsters is the fact that they are fiction.sure we all had nights like the examples i listed above where you wound up on the floor of your parents bedroom hoping you wake up and sneak out before they made fun of you.Any reasonable parents would right? because these monsters are fantasy.....they arent coming to get you unless you tell yourself they are......and your going against your loving parents guidance when you get scared about them.....as they have assured you they dont exist.not only that your grandparents will tell you the same thing....those monsters arent going to come after you,they arent real.in fact,ANYONE who cares about you(sans the youngest or most obnoxious uncle of the fam)will tell you you are safe.there arent any monsters to be worried about.

::sigh of relief:::(predator still swings through the trees outside my house:( )


now i on the other hand had a much different thought process going on laying in bed at night like apples when i was six.

actually lets take it back to age 3 or 4.

I'm an agnostic son of a southern baptist preacher.He was raised by the daughter of another southern baptist preacher.and while my father was young and still working as a laborer....i was being raised during the day by his mother.....a woman who was born in the smallest backwoods town in tennessee and raised by the most backwoods redneck pastor youve ever seen hold a spit cup.

I was in what we call "sunday school" here in the states 3 years before kindergarten.This is basically a religious form of pre-school except its funded by offerings during church services therefore they couldnt afford ice cream for the ice cream cones so they decided to put pudding in them(wtf).

If i wasnt in sunday school....i was with her....listening to some kind of bible story,her telling it exactly how she was told at my age in some run down shack in tennessee.now i mentioned earlier that the good thing about monsters is the fact that they arent real,and your family will assure you of this.you can feel safe.

except one........and to a 3 yr old.....who sounds scarier? a guy with big teeth and a cape? a guy wrapped up in band aids? how about the fucking Devil

"The Devil is always out to get you.he wants you to burn with him forever....remember when i told you not to touch that stove and you burnt your finger? think about that all over you entire body forever.he has horns and hoofs and he is the most evil thing that ever existed and all he wants is you.he has been hiding out watching you since the day you were born and he wants to take you to a pit of fire you will never ever escape.He is laughing at you right now.can you hear him laugh?(oh by the way jesus died for your sins)"

The age you are indoctrinated in my opinion is probobly one of the most important things when it comes to religion/spirituality alot of us didnt need to hear the story o noah's ark because we had already c o l o r e d him and his boat along with a couple of each animal.a three or four year old like i was can never overcome that.there is a thread over in CEP about a three yr old being raped and what its going to do to her mind.if we obviously view such a young age as capable of being altered mentally forever by something at so young....how many "believers" out there fear this devil...this real monster that your family who loves you CONFIRMED (yes he is after you) because it got to them so early?

like i said im agnostic by definition....and due to this thousands of ideas seperate my family and i as well as thousands of interstate miles.I dont have any religion in my life right now...it doesnt come up in my daily life....i havnt seen a bible since i left home and im pretty happy about the way i look at life and the world now.but when you talk about death......death being forever.....i cant help but seeing that devil whos been waiting for me...i dont belive it....but the three yr old boy who still lives inside me does.thats why i dont like to think about death.i think about life.....because that is all i want to experience.i have found joy in the fact that that is all i have to experience.


but hey if im wrong and he is down there when i get there....i cant wait to tell him that eventually predator was scarier.

(btw great thread apples,lots of good replies)

MyDoorsAreOpen
11-03-2005, 15:48
^^^ One of the more amusing childhood anecdotes I've read here, kubenzi =D

I have an interesting perspective on this, because I'm working in a nursing home. All of the residents have more or less come to terms with the fact that they're at the end of their lives. Some seem like the pleasant jolly old grandparent types. Others are the grumpy crotchety old fart types.

What's the difference? After talking with many of them, as well as our chaplain, I've noticed what separates the two groups. The content old people tend be unafraid of death, and also seem to be the ones who are proud of the way their lives panned out. I get the sense from them that if they had the chance to do it all again, they wouldn't do it any differently. On the other hand, the bitter older people tend to be the most fearful of dying. They're also the ones with the most regrets!

I think the secret to being unafraid of death is to find closure in all you do. To tie up all loose ends, finish all unfinished business, and never let any golden opportunities pass you by. Live your life in a way that you would be happy to repeat the exact same way.

Another way to say this: have no karma when you reach the end of your life. By karma, I mean it in the original Indian philosophical sense of obligations owed to you and by you. Settle your accounts. Buddhists and Hindus believe that one can only escape the cycle of rebirth if this zeroing of karma has been achieved before the end of one's days. It makes a lot of rational sense, I think. If one is practiced at finding closure to all the small matters that make up a life, finding closure to the whole enchilada is not a big deal.

Live with the illusion that closure isn't necessary or even acheivable, and you will find old age hell, and death a very scary prospect.

applesbliss
11-03-2005, 17:29
Originally posted by mezcalene
Death is an transition a passing into the next realm, a good way to look at things is to imagine your dying on your death bed, and ask your self , did i do with my life what i intened, am i happy with what i achieved, and if you have not then do it! i think the fear of death is not acomplishing what you set out to do.

That is a beautiful way of looking at it. However, it is possible that you could die in an airplane crash, a flaming automobile wreck, or a natural disaster, etc. Your death could be instantaneous. In that case, you would not be able to reflect back on your life.

You can only reflect back on your life while living.

uforic
11-03-2005, 18:20
nothing's ever final, we're all in constant movement. nothing's static. nothing. something happens, it always does. trust in the process.
it's given you everything.

knight_marshall
12-03-2005, 16:05
does anyone else consider it possible that our conscious' dont live inside our heads? or even this dimension wher that matter? dont' get me wrong, I personally believe that death most likely is final, and have accepted that and live my life accordingly... as full as I can.

But I can't deny the possibility of what I call "the second 99%" i don't know what it would be, or how it would work... but i think when I die I'll be more excited than worried or upset. :D

in answer to the thread title, most people seem to start defensively defining the validity of their own opinions... which is pretty much why I stopped sharing mine. still... i learn alot that way :D

Spooky Mulder
14-03-2005, 20:26
I think its just as scary to live forever.......It's like there is no end.