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KeWlHaNdLuKe
29-01-2000, 20:32
OK... I'm probably insane, but I'm about to ask a question that is going to make everyone's brain itch... Ok when you think about time, it is true that at any given moment there are an uncountable number of things that can happen. The kicker is that a single moment in time does not "take up" any time... In otherwords, it is like a point... dimensionless... And yet there is an infinity of possibilities that could happen... (Assuming that the Universe never ends...) OK Im gonna explain this visually later, but for now, go a little deeper with me... Has anyone else noticed the pattern that matter follows... An object is made up of molecules which are made up of elements which are made up of atoms which are made up of electrons, neutrons and Protons. All of these go down to quarks, and (in theory) get infinately smaller... Ok... The plot thickens... Objects are on continents which are on worlds which are in solar systems which are in galaxies which are in... You get the picture... Matter gets infinately bigger and smaller at the same time... It goes on infinately in both directions... OK time to make your brain itch some more... Now think about time... First we will think one dimensionally... Picture a 1D time line. We all know that it goes in the negative and positive directions infinately...( similar to matter, but that is not the half of it... It has another simularity... Remember we're still in 1D... Wait till I try to explain the really tricky part... Lets say you go from 0 to 1. you can divide it by 2, again and again forever... You can do this with (almost) any number no matter how small... Now we're getting to my "real" question... Can you have a dimensionless point that can be infinately divided... I think I need to explain this a little better (even though we're still in 1D) If you can take any amount of time and divide it by 2(or infinity for that matter) forever, why can't you take a single instance in time... Like if you froze it, and divide it by infinity forever... Now my question is about to go 3D, so if you aren't a math person you might as well get out the Advil... Lets go back to matter... OK... If time and Matter are simular to each other... (that's a big if) Try to picture the concept that I talked about in 3 dimensions... Im not even going to try to explain it... Well I'll try... Imagine a box. (Props to SpecialKNY here... I had thought of it before, but he thought of it independantly of me so I have to give him credit)) Inside of each box there is an infinity of boxes. Inside of each of those boxes, there is another infinity of boxes, and inside of each of those... You get the picture... Now try to picture a kind of tree with branches that connect all of the boxes... (Heres a little side comment. Remember that the box that we started at also has another infinate boxes inside it and connected to it... I just singled it out to simplify the picture) My question runs something like this. All of this together would be only one "infinity" yet ther are an infinate number of infinities... (Ouch) I understand this, but Im about to get back to my real question... How can there be an infinate number of boxes encompassed in an area that takes up zero volume (or space) If matter gets infinately smaller, this would have to be the case. I think that is my principle flaw... Matter can't get infinately smaller...(But it would be cool if it did because it would mean that there has to be a god...) Here's some other interesting food for thought... If matter gets infinately smaller, are our minds infinate? Is that what makes us alive? Is that why we have souls? Are our souls just the parts of our minds that take up zero space? How can there be such an organized pattern to life if the theory of entropy is true? Is the earth just some atom in a great big hamburger that someone is about to take a big bite of in some other world? ORRRRR??? Is it all connectec somehow... Is the hamburger simultaneously on our earth, and in some other earth that is about a million orders of magnitude bigger than ours? Is that why I can read your mind when I'm tripping??? I hope I didn't scare anyone... I am really not about sitting down and thinking but sometimes I just can't help it... I thought of this one time when I was looking at the stars out in the middle of a big cornfield in Texas... I don't think I will ever figure it out... Help me out if you can...
Peace out,
-K-Luv-
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"Oh God, do not remain quiet; Do not be silent and, Oh God do not be still. For, behold, Thine enemies make an uproar..." Psalm 83:1-2.

jayrw
29-01-2000, 21:06
OH MY GOD!!!!! Cany I have some asprin now!! That Fucked me up!! http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif)) I took some physics in High school and if that is the way you think, I think you need to teach Physics or something--cause you sound like my physics teacher. http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif))) I think Ill go roll tonight and think about it
PLUR
Jay

aimE
29-01-2000, 21:09
ouch........my brain hurts http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/frown.gif

SpecilKNY
29-01-2000, 21:24
K-luv we definatlly have to talk hehehe - I never got that far but i was on the way ... Now you filled me in on a few technical subjects that i was missing (i never studied physics just math) and Now i am on amazon.com looking for books on quantom (any suggestions ? ) somehow when we were tripping it all seemd so natural -> we didn't have the answer but we knew exactly what the question was - and I think that is what make acid beautifull -> some questions will never be solved - but as long as you know what the question is your life will be exciting in looking for the answer http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
Next time we meet - I defiantlly am bringing Some papers and pen http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
Now a question about matrix - which i know you love that movie - how come the humans (in the "Real" life) looked exactly the same they did in the "fake" world ? ) they could have created them any way they wanted bascially - they used that body only as batteries http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif well except for the fact that they had to hire 2 players for every part and that it would make the movie confusing as hell - i didn't find another answer http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
And now a quate just for you ..
"If at first the idea isn't absurd, then there is no hope for it" Albert Einstein http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
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Just K - Hugz Drugz and a dozen Roses

PaRaDoX
29-01-2000, 21:27
Interesting ideas, and post... but your thoughts certianly aren't unique.
first, a word about infinity. Infinity is not some set value... it's a mathematical "process" of getting very large, or very small. therefore, one infinity can, potentialy, contain an infinite number of infinities within it, and in each of those, another infinite number of infinities.
further, if you concider an infinity (a number line, for example... streaching on forever in both directions)... and you take some point, for the sake of simplisity, call it (arbitrarily) P. now, this point "P" has an infinite number of "space" or "values" or whatever it happens to be on either side. SO, this point, "P" is, by defenition, the center. This is true for ANY and ALL points "P" in any and every "infinity". This is where it starts to break down. Any "infinity" can be divided infinately, into an infinity of infinites within one infinity. Have I lost you?
If the universe is truly ifininite, (and I don't think it is) then the laws of thermodynamics are irrelevant, and entropy simply doesn't matter. Becasue the universe, being infinite, has an (you guessed it) inifinite ammount of energy, and matter. which can NEVER be reduced to total chaos... becasue, if yer right, then the matter in the universe can be reduced inifintiely smaller, never reaching it's "smallest"... as the laws of entropy dictate.
now, something I am not following is why your perceptual "inifinite universe" is indicative of a god... that just doesn't make sence to me. If the universe, and it's contents are in fact inifinite, sure we have some more things to fingure out... but that doesn't indicate, difinitively that there is a "god".
At any rate... on to your specific question... which I THINK I vaguely understand what yer trying to say...
"a dimentionless point which can be infinitely divided" well... as far as our perception of the universe... short answer? no. any given "point" in time doesn't truly exist...
break out the excedrin, or maybe the liquid 'cid, cuz this is a little fucked. The nature of time is utterly unknown to us. Concider a cube, an ordinary box. Now, it has 3 dimentions... right? length, width, height... Sure this is all well and good, but what about DURATION... in our universe, everything has a "duration" an "instantanious cube" simply would not exist in our perception of our universe... which, concevably brings us into the... *drum roll* FOURTH DIMENTION....
now... any point in time, call it, again "P" being an instant, in time, having "no dimentions" as it were... to our perceptions never truly exists. time, for us, flows... it is our PERCEPTION of time... things which go from past to future. Time never stops. If it did, however, (which it can't) everything would remain exactly the same as the instant BEFORE time stoped, and precicely how it would look the instant AFTER time began moving again. These two "instants" being exactly the same to us. (this point, "P" lies somewhere in the infinitiy between one instant, and the next.) therefore, it would seem, that any and all instants in time have an "infininite" space between them, as you amd I have both well established. However, this is where the defenition of "infinity" comes in handy. it's a process, of getting larger and larger, or in this case, smaller, and smaller. (the limit as the change in time gets closer and closer to zero) Welcome to calculus.
Breaking our universe down into "mathematics" poses some very interesting problems. The universe divides by zero ALL THE TIME... or at least something so close to zero, that is is, in effect zero... (the limit as some variable, x, approaches zero) When we do this, the percevable qualities of the universe break down, and become theoretical.
I hope I answered your question... but at the same time, I likely raised so many other ones that you are going to be pondering the makings, and workings of the universe for eons to come...
Interesting point though... Just becasue we can't explain it... some "god" had to be responcible... right? of course... the suns flys around the earth... must be a god in a flaming chariot. Its like that law in physics... who's name I can't remember... the better and more exactly you know a particles velocity, the less you know about it's exact possition. and Vice versa. I think you can figure the analogy out for yourself.
I'm going to stop here... realy, I am
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.

PaRaDoX
29-01-2000, 21:32
read "a brief history of time" by stephen hawking... and it's "quantam" There are alot of books out there, but take it all with a grain of salt.
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.

Rob
29-01-2000, 21:48
Books on quantum physics:
The God Particle - Leon Lederman
This ones a good start, although gets pretty technical at the end, but most books on the subject end up doing it http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/wink.gif Pretty much a history of quantum physics/mechanics.
I also liked "In search of Schrodinger's Cat" And "Schrodinger's Kittens and the Search for Reality" By John Gribbin
The first time I read about the two-slit experiment, it gave me the creeps http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/wink.gif
Edit: PaRaDoX, I think you are referring to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 29 January 2000).]

DANK
29-01-2000, 22:10
And for tomorrow boys and girls we are going to discuss Einstein's theory of relativity followed by the cultural significance of black holes in our society.
I used to know them both, fuck if I can remember them anymore--damn drugs
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~DANK~

KeWlHaNdLuKe
29-01-2000, 22:10
Paradox,
Thank you very much for your intellegent reply... I have never read any books on Quantum physics, but I do understand a lot about Mathematics... However, my major dosn't delve into a whole lot of theory... Engineering takes a more practical approach to math, which i'm sure you already know... However the ideas fascinate me... I assure you that I oversimplified a lot of things so that everyone could form a kind of mental picture if you will... I've already thought of all of the things that you posted, and I still think it all stinks... I refuse to believe that there is anything I can't figure out if I think about it long enough... Believe it or not, I was 11 when I came up with the whole "Question" However, as I get older, and learn more about the way things "are," I just get more and more confused... As far as the issue with god goes(notice it isn't capitalized) That goes back to the question of why can I read your mind??? I hate to say it, but there are things that we can't explain, but in order to have any kind of basis to form any kind of theories, we have to take a few things on "faith." Here's a question... What are vibes??? I'm not overly religious, but I have noticed that I can walk into a room with maybe 100 people, and I can feel the emotions of every person based on their proximity to me... Some people's "vibe is stronger than others... I have a friend back in Texas who has a vibe of pure unadulterated happiness that has about a 50 foot radius... It is very very freaky... When I take him out, we inevitably draw a crowd... So many times people ask me "What is he on???" and he will be totally sober... The essence is very very real, and if you really feel for it, you will feel it... I hate to insult your intelligence because I'm sure that you have picked up on this too... I know it is a stretch, But I really want to believe that all of this somehow goes back to the way we are all somehow connected... I can't explain it... There is no mathematical model for it, but it is very powerful, and it can be used in very good ways, and very bad ways... I think that everyone "has it," because of the way that people migrate toward my friend, and because of other countless times that I have noticed it happening... OK this is for all of you reading this who have no idea what I am talking about... I assure you that I am the most kind hearted, good intentioned person that you will ever meet... I've found that when I tell people these things, they get scared or freaked out... I just want you to know that my goal in life is to make as many people happy as possible... I read people yes, but I truly use it to try and find the one thing that will make the people that I am interacting with truly happy... It is a very very powerful thing... If you are more interested in my philosophy on life, read my post titled "WhAt MaKeS YoU HaPpY?" Sorry about that Paradox... I just really don't want to scare anyone, but I'm really confused about that... There are vibes, and what causes them??? Is it supernatural? Is it something that I percieve on my own, or is it just a combination of very good perception skills, or lots of experience with emotions, and the different facial expressions that express them? (Im a poker Player...) Please don't think I am revelling in my own intelect, or in my abilities... I just want answers, and I would really appreciate anything you have to add...
PLUR...
-K-Luv-

DANK
29-01-2000, 22:22
specialkny--as for the matrix I beleive that the machines were smarter than you or I may have beleived, they monitored the interactions and relationships of the people in the matrix and then when a conception supposedly took place in the matrix, the machines mated those two individuals in real life as well, thus keeping a balance with the number of real uhmans annd humans in the matrix, then knowing that the people would grow suspicious if their offspring looked different from their parents traits so they thn examined the amino groupings in the new child that was just created in the real world and place the projection of what this child will look lkike in the future on the newborn's young impressionable mind and as it grows it is only following the set of standards that is already set forth for it to follow. Now compare this to real life and see how soceity is exactly the same as the machines because it forms many young impressionable minds into exactly what it wants them to be. and only a select few are abl e to break though this barrier and become exactly who we want to be.
The matrix does exist, but only because we as a soceity force it upon ourselves
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~DANK~
[This message has been edited by DANK (edited 29 January 2000).]

SpecilKNY
29-01-2000, 22:31
O.k - metrix - it started somewhere - so they could have created the hole human race as a hole diffrent thing .. it's like in a dream - ever noticed how in dreams you never see yourself - i don't know anyone who can dream on the way he looks - you don't modify yourself .. well maybe i'm wrong - this is complitely out of my head based on nothing http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
so there isn't really anyhting to compare to if they wanted their parent to look a certain way they could have created it - cause by the movie the baby doesn't has real memory he is born into the matrix http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
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Plur Now and Forever - SpecialK
"If at first the idea isn't absurd, then there is no hope for it". -Albert Einstein

PaRaDoX
30-01-2000, 02:47
Kewl: sorry about that "god" shot... it was a little over the top. But yes, I utterly understand what you are saying about "vibe" and empathy. This is where I get a bit crazy sounding, BUT... I think that is a cultivateable skill, for some, and one that others are just born with. I can't explain it either... I guess I am a bit "new age" but to take your empathy, and radius thing a step further... and without scientific explanation (which I don't realy have) I believe, and honestly "see" people's "energy field" or "aura" or "Qi" (pronounced chi). Not only that, but it is a palpable force... a manipulateable force. I also do believe in a connection between people... That I also can't explain. I can also feel "rivers" of energy flowing beneath the earth (lay lines)... I have often seen "inside" anothers mind... sure, I sound like a wack job... but I realy do. Maybe I'm just crazy... we all walk that line between intelegence and insanity... I usualy have a foot on each side of the line...
I too had thoughts like that regardeing the nature of the universe at a young age. Also, if these things interest you, you should concider exploring philosophy...
at any rate... good post. I thouroughly enjoyed it... =)
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.

KeWlHaNdLuKe
30-01-2000, 05:10
Paradox,
I'll have to admit that initially I was pretty offended by your post... In fact (to be honest, I still kind of resent the fact that you still seem to consider me to be an inferior...) That is all inconsequential though because what we think of each other really dosn't matter because I am genuinely happy that I have found someone that truly enjoys "thinking about thinking" I would assume that you are not as old as you make out to be because I presume that you made the common assumption that I was about 18, and still wandering around the world thinking about things with no purpose in mind... In reality, I am quite the opposite... I am what many would call a "raver," but I am not what you think I am. I am at a very prestigious school, and I have a very good idea of what I want out of life. I did consider a degree in Philosophy, but the green monster took over my priorities, and I decided that I would rather spend these 4 years of my life setting myself up for success. I am an Aerospace Engineering student, but I do not limit myself to the stipulations of a title so shallow as a "major." I hope you can realize that "people" are not as dumb as you think that they are... I used to think that... I used to think that the general mass of the population had very little to offer me, but as I matured, I realized that everyone has something to offer... Please don't take this in the wrong way, but if you go back and read your initial posting, you will see that the tone that you used was very insulting, and almost overbearing... My initial reaction was to come back at you with personal insults about spelling and whatnot, but I realized that this would be very shallow and immature, I realize that I am being a slight bit hypocrytical in my tone, but I assure you that this is not my intention... I would really like to share with you what I have learned... Even the dumbest e-tard has little revelations of wisdom that one can learn from... Social skills are very complicated, and I don't think that I will ever know exactly how to deal with every person I ever meet...(and this is how it should be,) however, I see the same patterns that you see in life, and I hope that you are headed in the same direction as me in that we can realize that no matter how smart we are, there are always people who are smarter than us... I maxed all of the IQ tests, and I meet people who are smarter than me every day... You just have to keep your eyes open... Please don't take this in the wrong way... I loved all of your insights, but I'll have to admit that your tone offended me a little... I didn't plan on saying anything about it, but isn't that what this whole thing is about??? Telling people how you feel??? I would love to have a long conversation about life with you, because I'm sure that there are many things that you could teach me, but I was initially offended, and that biased all of the good things that you said... I guess what i'm trying to say is that you would be a lot more effective if you used a little more tact... I really enjoyed your post, and I'm glad that there are more people like me out there... Enjoy your intelect, and use it in the right way, and you will make yourself and others happy for the rest of your life... Thanks for the posts,
Plur,
Much Love,
Caleb.
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"The DJ saved My life... Cause I was sittin there bored to death... and in... Just one breath he said ya gottagetout. ya gottagetup, ya gottagetdown girl..."

Starfucker
30-01-2000, 05:31
Wow, math and science never seemed so relevant on a human level. Maybe if I had done drugs in high school I'd have given a shit about those subjects and understand them more.
Anyways, I can't grasp the infinity stuff enough to comment on it but let me think it over for a few years. Or do some more drugs or something.
I think vibes are purely mental. If anyone saw this past week's episode of _Friends_ I'm thinking of Rachel's boss' "reading" her relationship with Ralph Lauren. Anyway, I find that I can get really paranoid that someone doesn't like me when they're actually just busy or distracted or something. And the other way around.

NY Exstacy NY
30-01-2000, 05:46
OK...Let me first say that i love u guys and the shit that comes out of ur brains...Heres a little out of mine...
Physics...
Kewl...i have often thought about what ur point theories about infinety dividing and expanding..sober and wrecked...and i cant come up with an answer...Heres a cool little thing i learned in physics
BLACK HOLES
yes...that crazy phenomenon we know as black holes are actually giant masses, larger than our sun, compressed into an extremyl small volume known as a singluar. Now this little particle has the same gravitational pull as it did as a giant mass so it begins to pull everything into itself. Even light that is passing pwerpendicularly to it will bend and be sucked in. Now lets say by some miracle you are sucked into a black hole and u dont die instantly. Now your are looking out back towards our Universe.(Heres the kicker. time is NOT a theory. I dont have extemsive knowledge on the subject but gravity, speed , and time are all directly related.)Ad the amount of gravity you experience becomes larger and larger(Granted you would be dead by now),TIME WOULD SLOW DOWN FOR YOU. As you would experience what felt like a minute, 10 billion year would go by. You would see entire galaxies form, exist and the destroy themselves!!!! Eventually u would near the center and the gravitational field would vary so gretaly from once inch to the next that u would be stretched and killed.hey but u made it that far so whats to say that u wouldnt make it through. so lets say you did...Whats on hte other side is still a mystery. Does the immense gravity rip a whole in time itself( so called wormholes???)...and if so...where does it go?????????????I LOVE THIS SHIT
Oh and as for God. Im not taking a stand on the subject. There has to be something greater than this world. Something created the first matter.
Our God is the judeo-Christian personification of the ideal of goodness. If you stusy greek philosphersa and the idea of the world of the forms. They arrived at the idea of a ideal or perfection of goodness. They did not go as far as to make an entity out of it as we have.

johnboy
30-01-2000, 06:18
i wont enter into this one other than to say:
acid and quantum physics go together like beer and pretzels... perfectly
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.... he who makes a beast of himself, rids himself of the pain of being a man...

Belisarius
30-01-2000, 08:11
Well...after reading Deep's post about off-topic posts, I'm
reluctant to post my thoughts, in the name of respect, but I'll
take a chance and give it a shot. Here's my take on your
attempted brainteaser.
1.) No subatomic particles have been positively identified
that are smaller than quarks. What theory is this of yours that
says--theoretically--than they can be infinitely divided?
I haven't seen or heard of it. Physicists like playing with
scenarios like this, but they're really just killing time until
the next Einstein comes around. Speaking of theories...you know,
theoretically you could spontaneously turn into a Coke
can, or be transported to Klingon space. Really!
2.) On a similar note, you say things get infinitely bigger as
well. This isn't the case though, AS WE KNOW IT. The universe
may be infinite in extent, but that's that. There's no proof
of "bigger" or "smaller" universes out there. So there goes one
avenue of infinite regression.
3.) Size is a meaningless, utterly relative concept. Were you
"small" enough, a proton could be as "big" as the Earth. Out
goes that distinction.
4.) There's no proof yet that time even exists. Many
physicists doubt that it does, or has true direction.
So much for time.
5.) You spend a lot of time talking about the infinite division
of dimensionless points. Let's be reasonable here. A point is
a mathematical abstraction. It's dimensionless. It doesn't exist.
If it doesn't exist, then you can't divide it up infinitely in the
first place. I haven't even taken into account that infinity
itself is an abstraction with no apparent reality. This is a
philosophical question, but you try to make it relevant to the
"real" universe, which will just bog you down.
6.) Being purely speculative, matter *can* be made of infinitely
small components. It would just mean that matter is nothingness,
albeit structured. If you think that this is impossible because
your senses tell you that certain things exist...well, every
philosopher knows that your senses are totally fallible, and can
provide no real information about anything.
7.) I'll give you one solid answer to your questions at the end.
You wonder how life can be structured in the face of entropy.
The sole reason for this is because life has outside energy
sources that it can use to stave off entropy. For us, this source
is the Sun. It takes energy to fight entropy, and we have plenty
of it, for now.

Belisarius
30-01-2000, 08:38
Well...after reading Deep's post about off-topic posts, I'm
reluctant to post my thoughts, in the name of respect, but I'll
take a chance and give it a shot. Here's my take on your
attempted brainteaser.
1.) No subatomic particles have been positively identified
that are smaller than quarks. What theory is this of yours that
says--theoretically--than they can be infinitely divided?
I haven't seen or heard of it. Physicists like playing with
scenarios like this, but they're really just killing time until
the next Einstein comes around. Speaking of theories...you know,
theoretically you could spontaneously turn into a Coke
can, or be transported to Klingon space. Really!
2.) On a similar note, you say things get infinitely bigger as
well. This isn't the case though, AS WE KNOW IT. The universe
may be infinite in extent, but that's that. There's no proof
of "bigger" or "smaller" universes out there. So there goes one
avenue of infinite regression.
3.) Size is a meaningless, utterly relative concept. Were you
"small" enough, a proton could be as "big" as the Earth. Out
goes that distinction.
4.) There's no proof yet that time even exists. Many
physicists doubt that it does, or has true direction.
So much for time.
5.) You spend a lot of time talking about the infinite division
of dimensionless points. Let's be reasonable here. A point is
a mathematical abstraction. It's dimensionless. It doesn't exist.
If it doesn't exist, then you can't divide it up infinitely in the
first place. I haven't even taken into account that infinity
itself is an abstraction with no apparent reality. This is a
philosophical question, but you try to make it relevant to the
"real" universe, which will just bog you down.
6.) Being purely speculative, matter *can* be made of infinitely
small components. It would just mean that matter is nothingness,
albeit structured. If you think that this is impossible because
your senses tell you that certain things exist...well, every
philosopher knows that your senses are totally fallible, and can
provide no real information about anything.
7.) I'll give you one solid answer to your questions at the end.
You wonder how life can be structured in the face of entropy.
The sole reason for this is because life has outside energy
sources that it can use to stave off entropy. For us, this source
is the Sun. It takes energy to fight entropy, and we have plenty
of it, for now.

PaRaDoX
30-01-2000, 11:54
Kewl:
I wrote this huge self absorbed excuse ridden apology post, and upon re-reading it, it was a pile of crap.
Suffice it to say that my comments were not intended in the manner in which they may have been recieved, they were intended as jests, but I understand the confusion.
I realy did aprecite the post. It made me stop and think, and explain things well enough to myself, that I could express them to others.
My predjudices, and pre-conceptions of people are totaly un-warrented. For that I also apologise.
in short, the cullmination of any other comments that I might make is this, I'm sorry if I offended you, I had no intention. (hmm, I'm starting to understand why I have a reputation for being a snotty bitch)
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.

KeWlHaNdLuKe
30-01-2000, 18:10
Wow, I just want to thank EVERYONE for their wonderful posts... This wasn't meant to prove anything, or to even educate anyone... I just wanted to stimulate a little thought... I realize that almost all of the stuff that we talked about is mostly BS founded on unprovable theories, as Belisaurius so eloquently stated, but I really just wanted to tickle everyone's brains... It's kinda fun to think about... At least I think so... The root of my question is really in my post about vibes... I've always thought I was alone in that, but I have seen that empathy is a widespread skill that everyone should try out... Anywayz, I loved all of your replies, and I hope to see all of you at the next party that I go to...
PLUR,
Caleb.
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"The DJ saved My life... Cause I was sittin there bored to death... and in... Just one breath he said ya gottagetout. ya gottagetup, ya gottagetdown girl..."

Viper1
31-01-2000, 03:55
From my good many acid/shroom trips they have shown me two things.
Time is only a perception.
Matter is the DNA of the universe (string theory, ie the way matter is arranged decides the rules of the universe and it's properties). This came to me with a very intense closed eye visual on mushrooms.. i went searching to see if there was some physics behind it, i found the string theory article in LA times. Hehe just about shit my pants.
Oh.. and all things cannot be truly calculated they are only approximations.
You cannot tell where the electron is, because when you know where it is, it already someplace else. It knows no straight lines or patterns, it is the essence of nature, pure randomness.

phomet
31-01-2000, 08:12
my 2 cents,
they should require all college students take acid.
second thing, belisarius already metioned in his post, that you can only divide into something if it has a quanity. You can't divide a single point, but you can divide the distance between two points.
About 'infinite', I'm not sure if this has any relevance, but in set theory, there are two types of infinite sets, countable and uncountable.(no has yet proven if there's other types or not) Basically, {1,2,3, ...} is a countable set, and all real numbers is uncountable, as well as your infinite boxes within boxes.
anyways this is my theory on vibes, and reading minds: Most people know that it's not the words that convey meaning but how you say it. Also I think that in communication, body language, and facial expression, mean so much more than, just the words. When your on acid, mj, or some other empathic drug, you pick up more so on all the body language stuff, so that it seems like you can read their minds. Or I could be wrong and acid does let some people read minds. Hmmm, now that you metioned poker, that is something I gotta try. hehe

TraiN
31-01-2000, 08:22
holy shit.................

phomet
31-01-2000, 08:57
uh just want to clarify my above post a little, it pretty obvious, and silly to say, but also important, is that the definition of a infinite set is any set that's not finite.
(at first, you may go so what i know that, but if you think about infinity alot, the definition will come in usefull)
When i was on acid, I had these visions of infinity, exponential growth from a viral program among other stuff. For some reason, i saw this viral program (i don't know what else to call it) represented by music combined with a big wheel. This wheel had an infinite number of spokes, or like a gear an infinite number of teeth. Looking into each of these 'teeth' contained a person, kind of in a cell. As this wheel rolled over me, I saw all those peoples faces. Plus the people and the wheel, gave me a rythmic beat. It's hard to describe how i learned the beat, but let me try. If i say "1,1,2,1,1,1,2,3,2,1,1,2,1,1..." eventually you'll learn the pattern and continue. But for this rythmic pattern it seemed that i didn't just learn it. My body KNEW it, I couldn't control my body, it just moved with the rythm in my head. I think that was when I really started listening to trance and thinking how it makes you dance. Back to story, (I hope I'm not boring you all to death) I became part of the wheel, trapped just passing the rythm on, I guess I didn't really like being 'unfree' like a robot so I just pushed the infitely huge wheel in my mind away and looked at it from the side where it dissappeared since it had no depth.
So, that's how I saw exponetial growth in action.
I'm not a very articulate person(yet) http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/frown.gif, i wish i can show you what i saw.
On another part of this same trip, I cleaned my room, but I picked stuff up, in the reverse order I threw them on the ground. Every thing I picked, my mind immediately traveled to that point in time. In a sense I was walking backwards in time. Anybody else have similar experience?
___
everyone, yes I mean everyone is insane. If you don't think so, you just don't know them well enough.

miss apple
31-01-2000, 09:59
http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
It's conversations like this that make me regret leaving my maths degree.
However you can read and learn about these sort of theories without being within the confines of a university.
Belasarius, thanks for your thoughts...they certainly showed how easily theories can be disproven and thrown out the window.
I can't contribute tonight...I'm too tired. But keep it up. These sort of conversations are the reason I keep coming back here.
miss apple

paranoia
31-01-2000, 13:19
well...i like looking at grass when i'm tripping. LMAO!!!

paranoia
31-01-2000, 13:20
well...i like looking at grass when i'm tripping. LMAO!!!

couch monster
31-01-2000, 19:40
I feel like I'm in college again. I took nuclear engineering my last year of school and I got more out of this posting than I did the class. Not really, but just about.
KewlHand - wow, dude! I thought I was the only one to think about things like that.
Paradox, Belisarius - excellent responses.
For a very good description in layman terms of quantam theory and time-space, go to www.howstuffworks.com. (http://www.howstuffworks.com.) How Stuff Works has a very good explanation of Newtonian physics and relativity.
Also, Time magazine had recent article on Einstein in which all of this is discussed. I regret that I can not remember which issue. However, I do remember a statement in which there may be as many as 11 dimensions. Imagine that!
Also, a good movie to watch while being under the influence is The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai in the 8th Dimension
For those of you who can't get enough of this stuff and enjoy math...especially Calculus, try this on for size.
Problem:
The solid formed by revolving (about the x-axis) the unbounded region lying between the graph of f(x) = 1/x and the x-axis (x>1) is called Gabriel's Horn. This solid has a finite volume and yet has an infitite surface area. How is that? I know that the volume of Gabriel's Horn is 'pi'. That damn number that pops up everywhere.

KeWlHaNdLuKe
01-02-2000, 20:02
Heres tha solution couchmonster...
You can prove that Gabriel's Horn has finite volume and surface area with very little calculus. Cut it into infinitely many slices, each with width 1. That is, the cuts are at the planes x = 2, x= 3, x=4, etc. Now the first piece, from x = 1 to x= 2, has volume less than pi*1^2, which you can see by comparing it to the larger cylinder that it sits inside (draw a picture). The second piece, from x = 2 to x = 3, has volume less than pi*(1/2)^2. The third piece has volume less than pi*(1/3)^2. So the volume of the entire horn is less than pi*(1 + 1/2^2 + 1/3^3 + 1/4^2 + ...). That series converges. To prove that the Horn has infinite surface area, compare the surface area of each piece to that of a smaller cylinder that is inside it. You'll find that the entire surface area is at least
2*pi*(1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/5 + ...). That series diverges, and is thus finite...
Hehe... Ill bet you thought you got me...
Caleb...
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"The DJ saved My life... Cause I was sittin there bored to death... and in... Just one breath he said ya gottagetout. ya gottagetup, ya gottagetdown girl..."

e_rep
01-02-2000, 20:49
I don't have the time or energy to get to indepth in this conversation, but you can't put a point of reference on infinity. It goes on forever in every direction. There is no middle.

liquidocean
01-02-2000, 22:00
time & space, constant of creation, resonance, morphogenesis, reincarnation, previous lives, channeling, vibe, auras, (electro)magnetic fields, colors, smells, spectra, quantum. physics, we are connected, duality, extremes, balance, harmony, the Tao, interdimensionality, (atoms=solar systems=galaxies), aliens, pyramids, time travel, space ships, black holes, quarks, portals
mathematics, music, art, binary info, fractals, all is one, perception, all is relative, good & evil, God and no God, me and not-me, Jungian Psych.
ESP, telekenisis, OBE, NDE, clairvoyance, suicide, trauma, dissociatives, the dark side, satanism, astrology, wicca, animism, shapeshifting, meditation, mysticism, Eleusinian Mysteries, Goddess worship, Gaia, Veda & Dharma, Sufism, Karma, Buddhism, Zen, Qabbalah, Avatars, Brahma, Shiva, Atlantis, Mu, and Utopia, Om Mani Padme Om
James Brown, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix, Bob Marley, Malcolm X
neurotransmitters, tryptamines, mushroom spores, phenethylamines, indole rings, seritonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, adrenaline, amides, alkaloids, bromides
LSD, Psilocybin, Peyote, 2CB, MDMA, Ketamine, PCP, MDA, DMT, 5-meo-DMT, DXM, DOB, STP
Black Plague and AIDS, Wars of Destruction, Y2K malfunction, Westernization, Ecological crisis

Papa_Squish
01-02-2000, 22:32
I would just lie to say that for all those who know someone who feel drugs; acid, e, etc... cause your mind to dull or make you stupid, please direct them to this thread. LOL
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Take it easy all,
Papa_Squish

Rolex
01-02-2000, 22:44
OK my mind is not prepared to answer all the quesitons but here is A little of what i can explain half a$$
1) a point is defined by dimesion without one you have nil, null, nothing
2) i am shyaking so bad now i can hardly type...
3a) If you look at time in a multiple dimesional format a) your gonna get a headache b) freak out c) possibly step out
now if c) happens you have left this universe and move to another, cya when you get back.
3b) so in human terms time is 5d, stay with me if while i try to explain this 5d is our existance in the universe which we colletively experience a one, 4d is what we experience as a society 3d is preceviable in dreams, 2d we live in and make choices in 1d foraward only we think in. Any issues with this take them up with yourself...
4) I don't know how many dimensions there are, i think 10 in this universe, but step out and if you find out let me know.
5) still shaking...
6) as for bigger smaller i cant go there right now. still bugging on reading your post.
7) the universe is reducable infinitaly once done so i a dimesion it is over. If it is reduced in all dimensions there is nothing left. Which is where we came from
8) now beyond that i dare not go too much farther with out serious risk to my already fragile mind. Reality is your dream
Dream it as deaply as you wish.
thanks to all the post and conversations i have had in this life, this post was possible
Edited by cyd in a state of panic, No i have not dropped recently... Flash back can be a bitch.
Rolex needs to chill now ....*smoking* ~~~

Papa_Squish
01-02-2000, 22:59
I would just lie to say that for all those who know someone who feel drugs; acid, e, etc... cause your mind to dull or make you stupid, please direct them to this thread. LOL
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Take it easy all,
Papa_Squish

PaRaDoX
02-02-2000, 00:05
a word on the "horn" problem...
first, the nature of pi... 3.14159.... etc etc etc
Pi is a finite number, with an infinite number of non-repeating decimal places (or so we know... but since it's been calculated to the 2 MILLIONTH decimal place, it's reasonably safe to assume) So it's finite in it's infinity.
So, one could, potentialy continue on forever, adding smaller and smaller (to infinity) pieces, onto the volume of the "horn" 3.14159.... whereby making the number finite, with an infinite number of decimal places.
if I can find the website, I'll post it, but there is a website that has the ancient greek's method for calculating pi... it's realy quite interesting.
Basicly, it concisted of taking 2 geometric shapes, and the goold old "squeeze theorem" as the number of sides of each of the shapes gets infinitely larger, (a circle being a infinitagon... hehehe.. there's a new one. a shape with "initinite" sides) so the relationship representing pi of the lesser figures creates a range, in which "true" pi must exist. This range becomming smaller and smaller, as each of the figures gets more and more sides.
It's funny to watch the applet crash when you input a truly astronomical number of sides on the figures for it to calculate... anywyas... I'm done now.
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.

PaRaDoX
02-02-2000, 00:05
a word on the "horn" problem...
first, the nature of pi... 3.14159.... etc etc etc
Pi is a finite number, with an infinite number of non-repeating decimal places (or so we know... but since it's been calculated to the 2 MILLIONTH decimal place, it's reasonably safe to assume) So it's finite in it's infinity.
So, one could, potentialy continue on forever, adding smaller and smaller (to infinity) pieces, onto the volume of the "horn" 3.14159.... whereby making the number finite, with an infinite number of decimal places.
if I can find the website, I'll post it, but there is a website that has the ancient greek's method for calculating pi... it's realy quite interesting.
Basicly, it concisted of taking 2 geometric shapes, and the goold old "squeeze theorem" as the number of sides of each of the shapes gets infinitely larger, (a circle being a infinitagon... hehehe.. there's a new one. a shape with "initinite" sides) so the relationship representing pi of the lesser figures creates a range, in which "true" pi must exist. This range becomming smaller and smaller, as each of the figures gets more and more sides.
It's funny to watch the applet crash when you input a truly astronomical number of sides on the figures for it to calculate... anywyas... I'm done now.
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.

couch monster
02-02-2000, 00:57
Wow Dude! That rules. If you've never taken calculus before, then you ought to either teach it become a math prof. and think of theorems all day.
What you did, in essence, was calculus. That's all calculus really is. Dividing the line into an arbitrary length 1 was almost the same in calculus where you divide the length into infinitetly small discs of length zero.
I don't remember which, but what you did actually has a name: the Disc Method or Shell Method.
I actually had to look it up: it was the Disc Method.
Anyway, that was cool, dude. I'm sure it would be interesting getting stoned w/ you.
Oh yea...
What we've got here is failure to communicate. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. Now I don't like it any more than you...yadda, yadda, yadda.
Or something like that...excellent handle.

NY Exstacy NY
02-02-2000, 03:35
Couch Monster, heres ur answer, it has to deal with fractional trig i think
Picture a cube
_____
/ /|
/ / |
/_____/ |
| | /
| | /
|_____|/
Now divide the face of the cube into 9 equal squares. Imagine you could remove one of them like coring an apple. Now do the same to the remaining 8 faces...each one square will subdivide endlessly creating mmore and more service area. Thus the cube has a definite volume and an infinite surface area.
pretty weird
theres another way to do it with an triangle inside of a circle but its harder to explain
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Life is too short to drink cheap beer

Andromeda
02-02-2000, 04:22
Its posts like this that make me realise that im not the only one that kicks arse on assignments after acid! Acid, the think drug for all us mathematicians/physicists/fractal geometrers and astrophysicists out there!
one word to encompas all...CHAOS. think about it...its apart of everything you have written...perhaps it is everything you have written and more? chaos is what we are and what we arent...dont you love thinking like this! hehehe http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
Andromeda http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
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***This starship breaks for black holes and temporal disunities.***

Housekid5
02-02-2000, 04:52
why do you care? thats what i want to know.......... my big question is "if theirs no god, then that must mean that science is the answer BUT if science is the answer than are we thinking right now? because if you look at it on the atomic level we're just a bunch of atoms and electricity, how can matter and electricity "think"? and if their is a god, then how could he have made us and other animals (and maybe other alien life forms) think? so then you might look at it that humans (and any other living organism) no matter how hard we try we dont think, we react. many people dont like this idea because it means there is no free will, no choice, and therefore fate is what rules the world, and even if you "think" your avoiding fate, your just actually falling into fates trap, or we ARE just a bunch of atoms and electricity that has some how evolved to actually "think". thats something i love to ponder, i also like the question "does outerspace end? and if so, whats beyond it?"
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"whatever it is i think i
see, becomes a tootsie
roll to me"

couch monster
02-02-2000, 07:14
WTF???

sunjoy
02-02-2000, 09:46
Reading this post has made me understand one thing-- My brain is just not capable of understanding certain concepts. This is really disheartening. I thought that if you sit down and think about something long enough and really really try to understand it, you will. But I was wrong. My mind has been challenged and I failed. There really is a difference between the intelligent members of society and the rest of us. I love to think, and think about thinking, and I've had thoughts similair to (some) of these since I can remember having thoughts, but I just can't follow the majority of this thread, and I certainly can't express my thoughts the way you all have here. It makes me really sad. There is such thing as IQ. But, good for the rest of you smart ones. I guess I have to get on with the rest of my life now, after this crushing realization that all humans were not created equal, and get on with the business of writing down what I *do* know. Thanks all.

Guru Daddy
02-02-2000, 17:14
Whoa, sunjoy, are you kidding? Don't equate ignorance with lack of intelligence. These folks are obviously highly intelligent, they are also highly educated in specific areas of study. If we could all understand everything intuitively we wouldn't need education at all. I can't remember exactly what words he used but the gist of a comment from Albert Einstein was that imagination is more important than intelligence. Ideally I think we're looking for a combination of the two. I think humankind's great leaps forward have tended to come from asking "what if?" as opposed to "what is?" I read this thread, skipped some stuff when I got lost, and thought so what? It's fun to watch minds at play, even if I don't know all the rules of the game. Enjoy their strengths as you recognize your own unique gifts. It's not a contest, we're all on the same team.
Love and Peace,
Guru Daddy

applesbliss
02-02-2000, 18:54
I got lost in all those words.
I can no longer focus
Apples
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BLueLiGH!T |is| The EcStaSy |of| Internet

tigger
02-02-2000, 20:37
Hey!
I need to take issue with a couple of points here...
#1 I am not aware of any theory that stipulates that matter can be infinately divided.
#2 When working in a subjective model, looking at time as a one dimentional entity is impossible. It's no different than trying to view ONLY the depth of an object. In theoretical models, our 4 subjective dimentions can be separated and dealt with separatly, but not in an applied field.
#3 There is a problem with you theory when you state that in an environment where matter exists in infinate variety based on an increasing or decreasing exponential equation, that you have a box. In this model, that box would be inside an infinate number of other boxes, thus eliminating the possibility of a tree structure.
#4 In your model, each partical, regardless of size behaves the same way as it's larger and smaller siblings, regardless of the difference in scale. This points to a behavioral ratio. In reality this is not the case. That is why we have both Quantum Mechanics and Reletivity... For those of you who do not know, while Reletiviy and QM work perfectly in they're respective environments, they conflict with each other. This means that we can observe reactions in area of Physics that are governed by Reletivity that conflict with the expected reaction of the pricipals of QM. Funky, huh???
Two of my favorite books on the topic are:
Hyperspace: Michio Kaku
The 1st and 2nd Advanced Essays on 26th Dimentional String Theory: Glenn Schwarts
http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
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PLUR
Tig
************************************************** ***************
Binkies are way functional, they're kewl, and they're cute!
THEY ARE *NOT* LAME!!! grrrrr... = P

tigger
02-02-2000, 20:37
Hey!
I need to take issue with a couple of points here...
#1 I am not aware of any theory that stipulates that matter can be infinately divided.
#2 When working in a subjective model, looking at time as a one dimentional entity is impossible. It's no different than trying to view ONLY the depth of an object. In theoretical models, our 4 subjective dimentions can be separated and dealt with separatly, but not in an applied field.
#3 There is a problem with you theory when you state that in an environment where matter exists in infinate variety based on an increasing or decreasing exponential equation, that you have a box. In this model, that box would be inside an infinate number of other boxes, thus eliminating the possibility of a tree structure.
#4 In your model, each partical, regardless of size behaves the same way as it's larger and smaller siblings, regardless of the difference in scale. This points to a behavioral ratio. In reality this is not the case. That is why we have both Quantum Mechanics and Reletivity... For those of you who do not know, while Reletiviy and QM work perfectly in they're respective environments, they conflict with each other. This means that we can observe reactions in area of Physics that are governed by Reletivity that conflict with the expected reaction of the pricipals of QM. Funky, huh???
Two of my favorite books on the topic are:
Hyperspace: Michio Kaku
The 1st and 2nd Advanced Essays on 26th Dimentional String Theory: Glenn Schwarts
http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
------------------
PLUR
Tig
************************************************** ***************
Binkies are way functional, they're kewl, and they're cute!
THEY ARE *NOT* LAME!!! grrrrr... = P

krazy_E
03-02-2000, 09:30
ok, philosophically speaking...
my head hurts, i rather not think about those things and live a simple life.
but props to yall for having such deep minds.
sometimes i wish my brain was like that too, but it hasnt fully recovered from getting stabbed when i was still in my mom's belly.
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I don't like cocaine, I just like the smell of it.

liquidocean
08-04-2000, 23:34
bump.
this is how we used to do it.

Ro L L er G i r L
09-04-2000, 03:25
*deep breath* wow. First of all, let me say how thrilled I am to have just read through all of that. I know this reply is going to take me waaaaay too long to actually finish, but I am hoping someone, at least one person, reads it.
A little disclaimer first: I'm a high school student. I am not in an AP math course so I have not yet taken Calculus ... or philosophy. however, I am incredibly interested in topics like these, so all information that I know and will regurgitate I have acquired myself. So I don't know as much as I want to know...and probably never will. but I love trying. So here we go.
first and most importantly, "the wise man doesn't know how much he knows until he knows how much he doesn't know."
That said, infinities were discussed in repetitition here. What hasn't been mentioned, and may (I hope) provide some clairty is that you can compare them. Georg Cantor, considered by some to be the founder of the "arithmetics of infinity," started questioning whether or not the number of all numbers is larger or smaller than the number of all points on a line. Anyway, skipping the intro and history of the topic, you get to the theory of how we compare infinities. Try to follow me in what I am attempting to explain (not as well as George Gamow did... which is how I learned this one - "One Two Three... Infinity by George Gamow) If we can pair the objects, or numbers, of two infinite groups so that each object, or number, of one infinite collection pairs with each object of another infinite collection, and no objects in either group are left alone, then the two infinities are equal. But if such an arrangement is impossible and in one of the collections some unpaired objects are left, then it is said that the infinity of objects in this collection is larger, or stronger than the infinity of objects in the other collection. So that while something may go on forever, all infinites may not be equal. This is the most reasonable, and as a matter of fact, the only possible way of comparing infinite quantities. But, in application of this theory, some surprises might occur.
To explain this, an example would be comparing the infinity of all even numbers to the infinity of all odd numbers. Of course you would feel that the infinity of all even numbers is equivalent to the infinity of all odd numbers, and since a one to one correspondence of these numbers can be arranged, your intuition is right. i.e.:
1 2, 3 4, 5 6, 6 7, 7 8, etc. etc.
There is an even number to correspond with each odd number and vice versa, hence both infinities are equal. Seems practical, right? Well, here's where things get a little confusing. Which do you think is larger: the number of ALL numbers both even and odd, or the number of all EVEN numbers only? Of course all numbers, right? wrong! There is, in fact, a one-to-one correspondence of all numbers on one side, and even numbers only on the other:
1 2, 2 4, 3 6, 4 8, 5 10 6 12 etc. etc.
According to the rule of comparing infinities, we have to say that these infinities are equal! This sounds paradoxical, of course, since even numbers represent only a part of all numbers, but we have to remember that we are operating with infinite numbers, we must be prepared to encounter different properties.
And here's where things get relevant! http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif According to the above, we can infer and prove that in a world of infinity a part may be equal to the whole! So... *whew* in reference to what you, Caleb, were saying... we could all be living in a circle...which would make it infinite -- and it could be the size of what we know as a marble. It is all possible. And this theory, for me, at least, just confirmed how many more possibilities there are out there. Made me think more at least...
And, again, in theory, an infinity might not be infinite at all, it may just be beyond our comprehension. You know, there are theories today that say we live in an 11 dimensional world, but we are so incapable of thinking outside our 3 (or 4, rather)dimensional perceptive minds, that we will never be able to fathom the 11 dimensions. It's similar to how a cat only sees in 3 dimensions. When they look into the mirror they stare blankly, or don't even bother to stare because they see nothing. This is not because cat's can't recognize themselves, but instead this is because a mirror's reflections are only 2 dimensional. The cat cannot fathom his reflection. Anyway, that's my piece on that http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
About time...while some claim that time has been proven to be nonexistent, I agree with most of you and think time is only one's perception. Einstein had a theory, which I'm sure you all are familiar with, as I forget it completely... about space traveling and time. How, theoretically, it would be possible for one half of a pair of identical twins travel into space and return to earth exactly one year later having not aged at all and reuniting with his twin, finding that he is exactly one year older. It went something like that I think. Anyway, I think you get my point of view.
Caleb... you brought up an interesting point in having faith in the intelligence of the masses. I have to contribute, I'm sorry. I think it was said in Men and Black (trite, I know), but "a man is smart. people are stupid" something like that. Anyway, I agree. I believe that every single person on this planet (and then some?) has something to offer, something I can learn from. But when we are herded together, we're morons. I sometimes seriously lack faith in humanity because of this. My pessimistic side assures me that we will, soon enough, destroy ourselves. It sucks to think the glass is half empty....but anyway....
hmm.. god.. now here's a touchy subject. I know you already clarified, but I don't think anything besides an actual confrontation with the supposed being could prove the existence of god. To me, I don't need to know how everything started... how that first quark was created... I don't need a reason to feel insignificant. I don't need a god to supply me with a universal role in life.. or give me a soul... because of this, I cannot agree with any "proof" of an omnipotent being. I don't need a god to make me feel less small.. and I don't need to know all the answers.. or create something to answer them. (I am not meaning to offend anyone) However, as long as I am rambling.. I see the need for a belief in god. Religion (should) provide a system of ethics and morals that helps one to lead life. My own personal code of ethics and morality are not established by the belief in something higher than myself. I made them myself. based on the faith in myself that deep inside me, I know what's right and wrong, that I can make these decisions for myself, and that I am ready to be accountable for the repercussions of all my actions.
About chaos... so what if the entire universe is chaotic? Do you guys remember American Beauty? Well, do you remember that one video clip .. with the floating plastic bag. That was, in it's entirety - wind - pushing around trash, in no organized manner, in fact, chaotic, with no patterns, constants, or plan... just wind pushing trash. And yet, it was so beautiful. So maybe I take comfort in the belief in a chaotic world.. it's hope there's beauty out there http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
Anyway, thanks guys for reading (or scrolling through) my novel there. I didn't mean to go on.. and on... and on http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/wink.gif And on a side note: Everyone is intelligent. Everyone is unique. And I love this stuff... don't ever stop thinking... and when you guys are ever in Philly... stop by cause there's nothing like finding people you can actually converse with.
[This message has been edited by Ro L L er G i r L (edited 09 April 2000).]

vietvet
14-04-2000, 18:14
I think that concept is a little to pragmatic in those terms but you seem to have a good understanding of the "Man in the Cave Allegory"...Far Out...PEACE..plur
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if you aint programming yourself.......someone else [email protected] ru