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Motherof2
08-05-2000, 17:37
Here's a sad story for you that are using ECSTASY!! A wonderful 17 year old boy, neighbor of mine, and good friends of my children died this weekend do to the use of ECSTASY. Him and his parents lived just a few apartment buildings away from me. Saturday night he was just up stairs from his parents apartment having a good ole time party. When he went into convulsions. The kids he was parting with thought that this was funny to watch. 45 minutes went by before someone realized that this wasn't funny anymore, they final called 911. Well at 8:00 am he died. Some say that this was his 1st time using and some say it wasn't. But regardless if this was his 1st or hundredth time. It will kill you!!! This boy had a promising future, as all of you do. His parents they get to live with the grief of knowing that their child died getting high just a few steps away. If someone there would of thought of getting help sooner Steve would still be with us today. So stop and think before using, today you maybe lucky tomorrow you may not.
Motherof2
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 08 May 2000).]

Fuzzzone
08-05-2000, 19:20
That is truly sad to hear, the loss of youth and promise is a tragedy no matter where or by what means it occurs. I empathize with anyone who is put through the pain of losing a close friend or loved one.
However, what you've posted is a classic example of a scare tactic at work. To begin with I find it highly doubtful that the symptoms you reported were the result of the usage of a responsible (or reasonable) dosage of MDMA. In point of fact, I have serious doubts that this would be the result of *any* quantity of genuine MDMA. It is a definite possibility that he was either taking other drugs on top of the X or that what he thought was X wasn't. To my mind that bespeaks a need for education of the youth.
The real problem in this story is the reactions of the people around him. If you are looking for somewhere to lay blame then i believe the appropriate doormat would be the people who found his convulsions amusing. We need to take care of each other people, and whatever this kid was on (and it sure as hell wasn't just MDMA) we need to be aware and informed about what we are putting in our bodies. Educate yourselves and those around you. Its all about risk management.
Fuzzy
[This message has been edited by Fuzzzone (edited 08 May 2000).]

Motherof2
08-05-2000, 19:51
I also agree that the people that found this amusing should be held responsible for some of this tragedy. If other drugs were involved is unknown at this time. You say you find this hard to believe that was the only drug being used, and using a reasonable amount that this wouldn't have happened. What is a reasonable amount? How would you classify a reasonable amount for each individual? Any drugs taken is a risk taken on your life.

Jase
08-05-2000, 19:59
A fatal reaction to Ecstasy can occur and sometimes people forget about this...
MotherOf2: If you could provide any information from the coroners report this would be very helpful.
To often we are left with a scare story and no information what we can pass on to others, leaving doubts in peoples minds that the story is genuine.
Thanks
Jase.

Motherof2
08-05-2000, 20:27
When I have more information, I will provide this. This young man just passed away Sunday 5/7 at 8:00 am.

Fuzzzone
08-05-2000, 20:35
In response to your question Motherof2, i would consider a reasonable/responsible dosage of MDMA to be between 80 and 120 mg (though Dr. Shulgin gives a range of 80-150). Perhaps i should have qualified my statement of disbelief more strongly. All things being equal a standard dose of MDMA (100mg) is not going to be physically harmful except in rare cases of acute allergy or the like (much like acute allergies to aspirine or penicillin or ethanol). Of course there is always a risk to any behaviour, the key is being aware of those risks and making informed decisions on what you are going to do with your life.
The real issue is personal responsibility. I'm a responsible person, and i would appreciate the opportunity to pursue happiness however i see fit so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Teach people to respect themselves and others and the substances around them and i think that you will find that they will rise to the level of expectation (which is not to say that there won't be those that will be bitter disappointments, there will be, there is no avoiding that).
Fuzzy
P.S. I'm glad to see that you are still monitoring the thread Mo2, most people would have just come in here, flamed away and then left.

Motherof2
08-05-2000, 22:00
I have a update on my story. I understand that he had taken 2 double stack Mitsubishi. This is just hear say at this point. I will know more after I speak with my friends his parents. Would someone please tell what this means. Thanks.

Xman
08-05-2000, 22:52
Motherof2-- The drug ecstacy (MDMA) is often times pressed into pills and the pills are "labelled" with a logo-- A double stacked Mitsubishi is one of these and happens to have a Mitsubishi logo on it. Any pill maker can put whatever they want on a pill and the label or logo is no guarantee that the pill contains Ecstacy or that it contains a certain amount of Ecstacy.
I am a father of three boys, two of which have taken E. I ocassionally take it myself. I am very interested in what happened in the case that you posted about. Aside from the allergic reaction that was mentioned by another poster, Ecstacy does appear to be safe when taken responsibly. Taking two pills is not really considered irresponsible unless he was a first time user. I would consider it very irresponsible for someone to give or encourage a first time user to take two pills.

Jase
09-05-2000, 00:16
The directly toxic dose is very high for MDMA. Its doubtful the cause of death was "overdose".
More likely an allergic reaction, dehydration, water intoxication or liver/heart failure.
Jase.

Pyro
09-05-2000, 00:41
Perhaps another issue (besides how sad it is whenever someone dies due to drug use), is simple legality.
If ecstasy was made legal, or legal to get over counter AFTER the doctor told you about it's dangers and the like. Or if smart shops would take the 'education' role upon themselves (which I think they would if they were asked *hypothetical USA smart shops http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif*) Then the education material would be out there.
Don't drink too much water, because you can become intoxicated by it and quite possibly DIE as a result.
Some people have severe allergic reactions to ecstasy (MDMA, MDA, MDE), and given even a regular dose (or two times that ammount) could be fatal.
You can become very easily dehydrated
You can over-heat and die as well
All of these have been mentioned, as well as "perhaps he was mixing drugs". Which of course will probably never be revealed, but he *could* have been... you never know unless you do a testing on the person (where as friends tend to not give out that information).
If ecstasy were legal it would not have adulterants in it. It would be pure as regulations of it's synthesis would be put into force.
If ecstasy were legal there would be far fewer cases of "allergic reaction" associated with it, because the knowledge about this reaction would be put out into the public.
WARNING: You could be fatally allergic to ecstasy!!
Just like asprin, and MANY MANY more drugs attainable in the stores and over the counter.
I know there are a few that sit right out on the shelves of Longs Drugs that if I took one pill of I could easily die if no one called the paramedic.
Knowledge is the key.
It's sad cause it's happening more and more today with the rise in recreational ecstasy use... but what's even more sad is these can be prevented, but the governments 'war on drugs' is not allowing prevention. I would go as far as saying that the war on drugs is killing more than it's helping.
Pyro
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Frequency. Music. Sound. Imagination. Reality. Worlds. Hope. Love. Communication. Common Sense. Community.

funner
09-05-2000, 03:22
Jase; Could you supply a link on liver/heart failure information?

liquidocean
09-05-2000, 03:55
Mother of 2, the more information can freely be disseminated, the more we can make informed decisions on what we put into our bodies.
I grieve for the child, his family, and all around them. It is a terrible way to die, rest assured that the majority of us take extreme caution with our selves.

paddyboy
09-05-2000, 05:10
That is very upsetting to hear as everyone who uses this board is trying to prevent exactly that sort of tragedy. It is to be hoped that swallowing pills bought randomly with no real knowledge of their contents will decline as ways and means of testing them first become more poular. Hoping that people will stop using pills because of rare tragedies like this has been shown not to work. This is mostly mostly because they are so rare and get so exaggerated by the media that often they are simply ignored by pill users as the story doesn't remotely match anything in their experience.
Please wait for inquest or autopsy reports before deciding the cause of death. The highest profile ecstasy-related death in the UK was sensationalised as an ecstasy overdose on a first pill on the front pages of the tabloid press. A public outrage ensued, political knee-jerk reactions got to work and suddenly I've become a dangerous criminal subject to stiffer sentencing than a drink-drive killer, wife-beater or illegal firearm owner. why? In the past I have had in my possession a certain amount a substance I know makes me more sociable, less violent, less shy in the presence of strangers and more tolerant of the faults and prejudices of others while at the same time helping me avoid the oft-proven ills of alcohol, the drug of choice of many of my friends. They frequently feel nauseous during or after a night out, ill the next day, sometimes aggressive, frequently sexist and offensive to women when they think they are being hilariously funny and often physically need to drink. They know they consume more than 'recommended guidelines' and are prone to liver damage, kidney problems, heart disease, obesity and brain damage. There is a fair chance of them being one of the 30,000 or so alcohol-related deaths in the UK each year when they are older.
I have never been in an ecstasy fuelled argument or fight, never felt a physical need for more ecstasy, never felt nauseous or incapable of waking the day after taking ecstasy or ill-advisedly taken advantage of an equally intoxicated young lady under the influence of ecstasy and have never met anyone I didn't like who has taken it.
I am possibly at risk of a mild/moderate degree of serotonin depletion in the long run. I do run the risk of being one of the 7 or 8 "ecstasy-related deaths" per year in this country (an estimated 500,000 users per week to give a sense of scale, a roughly equivalent percentage of anglers die trying to catch fish each year), though that is unlikely as I know the risks and how to prevent/minimise them. Not by education from a caring government trying to prevent these deaths, you understand. They seem to think that if they don't educate youngsters about ecstasy they will never hear about it and never try it, forgetting that teenagers love the thrill of doing things they are told not to. The internet has been a great source of information, biased and unbiased, and I can honestly say I would never have tried ecstasy if the scientific evidence of its risks wasn't published on the net.
Research into MDMA based on very large regular doses given to rats showed depletion of serotonin levels. It was suggested that this may be due to neurological damage and the same may happen in humans, though no tests had been done to suggest this. With remarkable swiftness it was given class A status and banned across the world at the insistence of the USA. That is the primary reason for its ban - not because it causes convulsions, not because it contains heroin or lsd, not because small amounts are likely to cause overdose. Incredibly, the same scientist who came up with these results was consulted on the safety of fenfluramine for appetite suppression (the original reason for the synthesis of MDMA in 1913) and told the FDA that fenfluramine would have exactly the same effects as MDMA on the serotonergic system, only for it to be approved for use by the public! (note:it has been largely withdrawn recently on an unrelated suspicion of associated heart valve anomalies in some patients). MDMA on the same evidence from the same man remains a class A substance. The power of pharmaceutical companies or the large girths of politicians would have to be suspected of involvement somewhere as logic was clearly on holiday that week.
Deaths caused by MDMA are rare, I don't think a single case of MDMA overdose has ever been recorded at autopsy (although frequently reported by the press). The main causes of death are listed in the answers above and are mainly avoidable by harm reduction education, mainly avoided by schools to sidestep the barrage of complaints by parents demanding to know why their children are "being taught about drugs!" (because ignorance can be fatal strangely doesn't satisfy it seems). Allergic reaction is possible but again has never been published as a cause of death and cannot happen on a first ingestion. Anaphylaxis should be easily recognised and treated by medics if detected soon enough.
The symptoms you describe are atypical of excess MDMA consumption, and the amount contained in two of the best pills ever found would struggle overdose a rabbit. Having said that, I am NOT a doctor and unlike some will not fly in the face of the evidence when it arrives. To say ecstasy killed someone because they were sold a pill marketed as ecstasy by someone with no actual knowledge of the contents or their amounts and no quality control procedures is sadly media-inspired assumption and scape-goating. The most experienced of pathologists won't suggest a cause of death without performing certain tests, yet newspaper reporters do it all the time based solely on rumour, hearsay and the desire to make the front page. Sadly more people read the newspapers than the pathology reports and even more sadly believe them before turning to the story about seeing Elvis in the post office. Please wait for the autopsy report before following the well worn path of blaming MDMA. Potentially lethal substances are sometimes unscupulously used in pills by atavistic dealers/manufacturers, but probably the least potentially fatal is ecstasy, or MDMA.

Motherof2
09-05-2000, 15:49
I want to Thank You all for the information that you have provided me. I am doing more research on this drug to bring myself more informed. Whether it was a allergic reaction or another chemical involved the tragedy is still the same. I hope this tragedy helps educate and save one more life of these wonderful teenagers and young adults that I have come to be so fond of. And you guys (gals) have given some helpful information. When I have more information on this death I will be sure to let you all know. I wish you all good health and happiness however you choice to find it. If anyone else has information to provide please do. Again Thanks.

EddiE
09-05-2000, 16:08
Motherof2... I would like to take a second and thank you for your post and more importantly thank you for your openmindedness .
Eddie

Xman
09-05-2000, 17:54
Motherof2--I second Eddie's thank you ! Please keep in touch. And something I forgot in my first post: My symapthies go out to you and the family of the dead boy.

paddyboy
09-05-2000, 19:44
Likewise........I am truly sorry for the loss of a young man supposed to be having the best night of his life.
I should have mentioned that many, if not all my references were found in the articles section of www.ecstasy.org, (http://www.ecstasy.org,) an excellent resource for MDMA information.

Fuzzzone
10-05-2000, 00:03
Mo2- I'd like to echo Eddie's sentiments, knowledge is power and it behooves us all to occassionally be reminded of the risks inherent in our actions. It is heartening to see that though you have been personally touched by this tragedy that you are willing to maintain an open mind. Kudos to you, if there were more people like you who were willing to critically evaluate the situations they find themselves in, rather than succumbing to knee-jerk reactions, the world would doubtless be a kinder, fairer, all-together nicer place.
Fuzzy

Motherof2
10-05-2000, 16:06
Hello everone,
Here's the scoop, the coroner report. This young man died of a overdose of this ecstasy. His father stated that that the coroner report stated that there were as many as 9 pills taken. What the exact amount of chemical that was in his body, I didn't ask. The report also states that this young man organs were in excellent condition, and that he would of lived to be a ripe old age. But the heart wasn't able to take the amount of drugs so it shut down. The memorial service is tonight 5/10 and some say they will be glad to put this behind them. But do you ever put something like this behind you? I think that it will always be a part of our life that is now missing. To all of you that gave me information on this thank you. And what ever path you choice in life may it be the right one. My thoughts and prayers are with you all. Thank you again.
Motherof2

urbanE
10-05-2000, 16:38
To begin I sympathize with the family and friends of the deceased young man. The only way to prevent future senseless tragedies such as this is EDUCATION. As when watching the exploitative story of the young man who was sadly featured in the throes of death on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago, I wondered what might have happened had this person been educated about the fact that more is NOT better when it comes to X. With more educational groups spreading the word that that amount is extremely dangerous, and that the high does not increase after a certain amount is in the system, we might see an aversion to overdoses. MDMA is comparatively safe when used in responsible amounts (one to two pills per dose).

paddyboy
11-05-2000, 01:43
Certainly that does sound like a needless tragedy caused by a lack of understanding of how the drug works - I'm fed up telling people why more than 1-2 pills won't keep producing the same effect for more than 5-6 hours max. That advice is given repeatedly on sites like this and dancesafe yet there are still occasionally stories like this which show the dangers of overloading your system. Moderation/common sense is vital when using any chemical. Pharmacies, liqour stores, even supermarkets will sell lethal quantities of a huge range of substances from whisky to aspirin to anyone, yet for some reason it is sometimes forgotten that ALL chemicals/substances are lethal if ingested in large enough quantities. Drinking too much water will kill you by causing tissue swelling, breathing 100% oxygen through a mask will kill you by continually slowing breathing rate (breathing rate is regulated by carbon dioxide levels in body tissue) yet these are necessary to live as well. I hope more people read this thread and wake up. phreeX is composing a medical FAQ and I have already asked him to include this issue as it is one that bothers me. Thanks for getting back with the info motherof2.......

ecstacii
11-05-2000, 03:59
Motherof2, its sad to hear that something this tragic happen to you. Ecstasy is not safe and will never be safe. But I will tell you that Ecstasy is not at fault here. Prohibition is the cause of his death.
As long as MDMA is prohibited, and user's must obtain their pills from the tainted black market, what happens when the pill is taken will always be unpredictable. Your son probably didn't take MDMA at all, he may have taken some adulterant such as DXM or DOB, maybe even Ketamine. If MDMA were legal, it could be regulated and obtained legally and the customer would know that he/she is buying the real thing, and the chances of dying would be very slim.
So please, don't blame his death on MDMA, his friends, or even the adulterant that killed him. It is a simple truth that the Government's ignorance and stupidity is what killed him. Drugs are a simple fact of life, some people will use them, and others won't. But there will always be those who do, and the Government's ignorance will keep killing those people, then they will say it was the drug's fault, which in most cases it isn't.
[This message has been edited by ecstacii (edited 11 May 2000).]

Motherof2
11-05-2000, 16:35
Paddyboy - you are absolutely correct this was a needless tragedy. Even though I don't believe in the use of this drug, more education is needed for them that do. If this is want you chose to do, then please educate youselves. And all of you that really don't know what drugs your putting into you system, then do research on it so you understand the pros and cons of the use. Your right there are many nature things that we put in our bodies that can kill if abused. So who's to say what's right and what's wrong. Thank You for suggesting that this issue be apart of the Medical FAQ. If this saves one more life, then Steve death won't seem so senseless.
Ecstacii - Our government does need to wake up and educate kids & adults alike on the use of drugs (not just by their silly ads they run or as I was told early by using scare tactics). I've heard of this drug through conversations with my kids, but didn't really understand what it was really was. It took the death of Steve for me to do research to understand. I should of been more aware and also more educated before this tradegy happen. But just as a lot of adults and kids say this won't happen to us. Ignorance will be the death of a lot more. So everyone a lot of you are very correct EDUCATING IS THE KEY.

liquidocean
11-05-2000, 19:48
It is really amazing how little people know about this drug, yet so many people take it. Not just in mainstream America, tight underground rave scenes, bars, clubs, home partiers, experimenters. It's so freely available, why do we have a complacent attitude with researching what we ingest?
Do we have a false sense of security because we feel our scientific medical system will bail us out?
Do we feel we are Bulletproof because we're American?
Do we see our parents generation haphazardly popping prescription drugs and decide it's ok for us to do so with mysterious black market pills?
Does this generation of kids have a sense of despair and subconsciously act it out through suicidal tendencies and reckless acts of self-destruction?
Or are these kids upper-class hedonists who are pushing their buzzes too hard?
So many issues the general public has to bring to the light. You could push the big picture through the eye of a needle and make it a 'tough on crime' approach a la mainstream media, but it's our kids we're talking about, it's the next generation.
This religiously dogmatic dominant stance does nothing but alienate and destroy.
Thanks motherof2 for having a balanced point of view. We need to see more of that so that we can learn to trust and share our information, experiences, and knowledge.
Once this generation is allowed to come out of the proverbial closet in terms of their drug usage, maybe we can start discussing safety and harm reduction in reality terms, something that is long overdue.......

hbj0817
12-05-2000, 00:59
bump
we need to read this
peace

lilypad
13-05-2000, 22:34
I applaud all that you. Thank you motherof2. I thank you for keeping us informed and educating yourself on this issue instead of just stating what you knew and leaving. I know that through this tread it makes me really think.
Personally I am 25 my best friend who is 19 introduced me to e as a bonding experience and an exploration of myself. I don't feel that he was being as responsible as he should have been with the use of this drug and I know that his friends haven't been. This is due to the purity of the drug and who you get it from.
I totally encourage that we not use scare tactics. The teens that I am around just blow it off because they believe it is too extreme just to quit everything. But even though you may not believe that it is responsible to do this drug or any other drug there are more responsible ways to behave.
I have recently purchased a testing kit. I test the pills that I take. I try to buy from someone that I know from a source that we know. I will not let any of my friends take pills that I have not tested and tried myself.
My best friend keeps me accountable. I do not abuse the use of this drug. I have never taken more than 1.5 pills and never intend to. My best friend who introduced me to the drug almost died from taking 2 pills of what he believed was e. In truth we now know, through testing, he took a pill of DXM and one that was MDMA. If there is a doubt and you feel you must take more than one pill never NEVER mix two types of pills. I love him dearly and my life wouldn’t be the same without him. Anyone who has really tried to educated themselves knows mixing DXM and MDMA causes heart palpitations which can lead to heart attacks. He had irregular heartbeats for several days.
Any drug including alcohol can be fatal if ingested in an inappropriate amount. I have a friend of mine who went to the hospital to have her stomach pumped due to alcohol poisoning. I have friends that I know who abuse alcohol (because it is legal) and frown on me for taking MDMA.
I haven’t always been this responsible, limiting the amount I take and how often. It is due to education that I try to look out for my friends and that is the reason I test batches of pills that we get. I don’t approve of my friends taking large amounts, to some extent there is nothing I can do but I try to do what I can and to be a good example on MY usage.
I NEVER encourage someone to start taking MDMA but if someone comes to me and wants to try it I have some warnings that I have gathered and some expectations for the drug. Also there are warnings out there for people with preexisting conditions and there is information out there that tells what other legal drug are dangerous to take e with. If someone comes to me I will tell them all that and tell them to think about it and know the risk they are taking.
I attend raves. I see way too many fucked up people strung out on too many drugs. I have been there. But I have learned, fortunately fairly quickly without consequences. I recommend educating yourself so that you can educated others. I know that I am doing all I can to make my friends choices as safe as I can.
Motherof2 thank you for staying with us and informing us. If you would like site names or any other information that I have gathered please email me privately. In fact that goes for anyone.
Now to my personal experience and why I still take e. It really has helped me explore myself. I have become closer to my best friend who introduced me to this drug and more in-tune with myself. We keep each other accountable to the methods that we acquire the drug and how much and how often we take it. Personally I take e an average of twice a month. Tonight I will be taking e that I have had tested with my best friend and my husband. Just the three of us. We are all very close and I know the experience will make us closer.
Thanks to all of you.
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lilypad
13-05-2000, 22:36
I am sorry I thought I had my signature set up. Please send personal email to [email protected]

FoX
15-05-2000, 11:16
This is why defeat of the current House bill that would ban American hosting of sites such as this is SO important. If there are no sites with actual information on drugs, the only info out there will be the inadequate government information ("Don't do it!" and little else).
9 pills? Wow....
One other interesting sidelight...it is quite possible that GHB may have played a roll in this death...aaccording to my understanding of toxicology, G is undetectable shortly after death because the body produces GHB naturally...and the output increases at time of death. Convulsions sure sound like G overdose to me...tho it is very possible nine pills could have definitely done the trick.
I wonder how much is going to be made in ther media of the sheer (ridiculous) amount of E this young man consumed, or will we just hear the normal media hype with no substantive info?
Oh...Motherof2...thank you so much for not taking a 'preachy' stance on this, but providing us with actual balanced factual info....
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If it's orange and fuzzy, it's FoXy...therefore it's a CANDYFLIPPER!
[This message has been edited by FoX (edited 15 May 2000).]

Motherof2
15-05-2000, 17:07
All the information that all of you have provided has been a wonderful help. I know that my daughter is not a user. She has seen two of her friends die in the last 9 mos. From the "quote" "unquote" drug ectasy. But with the information that has been provided, it is pretty scaring that this may not be all their taken. My son is a young man and if he has or will decide to experiment, the more information that I know the more education that I will be able to provide to him. I know that preaching will not do the trick. Education will. All I can do is learn everything possible on the pros and cons of this. If educating these wonderful young adults helps to save their life, then let so be it. I know alot of people (acquiesces of mine) that would think that this would be promoting this drug. I don't feel that way, because this is out there and they are going to take it regardless of how opposed you are with it. So helping them to understand is the important way to go. And as always there will the ones that know everything and won't listen. My thoughts are if don't want to educate yourself on the things that you put into your body, then you must have a low self-esteem. But all of you that do have a low self-esteem on yourself remember there is always someone out there that thinks the world of you. And the lose of you will always put a black spot in their lives.
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 15 May 2000).]

Fuzzzone
15-05-2000, 17:08
FoX- Who's orange? http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
Fuzzy

Keka
15-05-2000, 17:57
There have been some very excellent comments made to Mother of 2 on this thread. Kudos to everyone!
Unfortunately, nobody stated the obvious, so I will do that here ...
Kids shouldn't be taking drugs, any drugs. Neither should any "adult" who does not have the maturity to know how to handle them. It's that simple. It’s not that drugs are bad (though everybody out there certainly wants to make it seem that way), but that, just like so many other common-place things in our lives (i.e. kitchen knives, electrical outlets, appliances near the bathtub, driving, etc.), they are dangerous in the hands of the ignorant.
These things happen because kids don't have enough of a concept of limits or common sense. If it feels good, they don't bother with anything else. I use drugs, but I also know when NOT to use them. I know the role they play in my life, and what I use them for. I use drugs, not the other way around.
In addition, the parents who were downstairs while their kid was at an all-out drug orgy (which, if they were all so hardcore messed up they thought his convulsions were funny, that's precisely was it was), are at fault as well, and not just because they weren’t aware of the kinds of things and people that their kid was into. No, we can't follow our kids around everywhere they go, but the kind of scene that this kid was at had to have seemed like a hell of a lot more than just a regular drinking-punch-and-dancing party … and his parents were just one floor away. They had the opportunity to discretely get a glimpse of what was going on, and yet they had no idea.
I feel very badly for this kid and his family. It’s a terrible thing, and I send my deepest condolences. At the same time, though, is it reasonable to then conclude that NOBODY should do it? Hundreds of thousands of people die in car accidents every year, should we all stop driving?
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Don't you know it's all in your head?

Motherof2
15-05-2000, 19:31
Hats off to you keka. I agree that the parents should of also been more aware. They are good people, but lost in the dark. As I was as well. But not anymore!

paddyboy
15-05-2000, 21:32
Motherof2-
Your assessment of education vs prohibition is nothing short of perfect. One of the reasons I persisted in smoking as a teenager was pure rebellion at being told what to do with no explanation and threat of heavy punishment by my parents. I thought that since my mother smoked (but tried to hide it) I knew better and was being told not to do it because of it's image. If she had told me then about the pain and suffering she went through trying to give up and her personal embarrassment at not being able to quit I would almost certainly have reacted in a different way. I now agree with her that it wasn't a good idea (understatement) and although I have almost beaten it mentally I am still struggling occasionally, especially at weekends when I let my myself go a bit. Your attitude will be much better received than venting anger and meting out punishment, and almost certainly get the results you want.

BuckE
17-05-2000, 01:11
my sympathies go out for the child's friends and relatives, although i do feel that the reasons for his death don't cut it when you say "it was the governments fault" because we paid some guy we know with a wad of cash for pills that we swallow with a big smile on our faces...i think the more important question to address is why this boy took nine pills. motherof2, your first message suggests that it was one of the boy's first experiences with the drug, in which nine pills is way way too much (probably for anybody if you ask me). perhaps he was an experienced user with a tolerance, thus the need for a higher dosage, but it does not sound like this from your messages.
its a tradgey that deaths like these are occuring, and i think we really need to encourage safe recreational drug taking...safe dosages and appropriate breaks between partying. not a lot is known about effects of ecsasty, so the least we can do is practice harm minimisation, which i think is important to teach one and all.
BuckE
[This message has been edited by BuckE (edited 17 May 2000).]

SwEEt*E*DrEaMs
17-05-2000, 02:28
first, i would like to say that i'm sorrie for the loss of this boy's life.. my prayers are with him and his family and friends in their time of grieving..
i would also like to thank you for your openmindedness Motherof2.. this is definately what and how we would like other people to see... alot of people don't realize that we aren't druggies.. we are young ppl with futures.. so thank you for being so understanding..
and to all the bluelighters who responded.. props to you guys for going about informing her in a nice way.. i know it could've been easy to just blow up..
so to both sides.. thanx.. cause this is what we need~ if the government could just realize that informing them is more important than trying to get it off the streets.. but yeah huh..
oh yeah.. *bump* definately a good thing to read..

Fuzzzone
17-05-2000, 17:39
Here's an interesting question: both in this instance and in that damned Dateline story we are presented with kids who took nine pills at once. Now I don't know about where you're from, but i don't think these kids were getting these pills for less than $10 each (and probably closer to $20), so that's between $90 and $180 for their roll. LUDICROUS! Kids either have *way* too much money or what they were buying wasn't MDMA but rather something much cheaper.
Damn, if anyone is willing to spend $180 to roll for a few hours I've got some beautiful oceanfront property in Montana I'd like you to take a look at.
Fuzzy
[This message has been edited by Fuzzzone (edited 17 May 2000).]

Motherof2
17-05-2000, 18:00
BuckE - I'm not really blaming the government for this boys death. I said that they should educate themselves more. So that they could educate the public w/ actual facts and correct information. They get a little information and add their 2 cents to it of what they perceive it to be. As well as everyone in this world, they need more education as well. I'm not pointing my finger at anyone. I'm blaming the lack of education and concern of parents, friends, relatives who ever is in direct contact of another. Even myself, because before this accident. I had no clue and education on alot of these drugs. But I'm trying to understand all of you and your point of view of this. Not saying that I agree w/ everything that I'm being told. But the education of learning about this drug has been very helpful for my understanding. I always have a lot of young people around my home, and talking w/ them w/ the information that has been provided for me has been a great help to them as well. It's great that I have this information, because as the word gets around they are coming and asking what else I have found out. So the blame here isn't direct in anyones direction. Like I said earlier that if educating myself, so that I can educate people around me and save another life. Then this young man's death won't be for nothing.
Fuzzone - I agree.
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 17 May 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 17 May 2000).]

Mr. Sticky
17-05-2000, 20:57
Motherof2,
Much respect to you for taking the time to learn about MDMA instead of falling prey to the ineffectual "drugs are bad, m'kay?" mentality that pervades U.S. culture. So few of the older, "non-imbibing" generation are willing to put forth that effort. Thank you for listening to the other side.
Education is the key; not misinformation, not criminalization. It is inherent in the majority of the human population to alter ourselves in some way, shape, or form. The best we can hope for then is to KNOW what we are doing to ourselves...the good and the bad. Making informed judgements is the best way to protect ourselves and grow as individuals.
I've seen far too many kids spout, "how could something that feels so good be bad for you?" These are the kids who no longer believe what their government tells them. They've grown up while being fed a steady diet of "marijuana leads to all other drugs" and other complete distortions/inaccuracies. They aren't willing to believe that MDMA might have a downside...it would destroy this little Eden they've created that perpetuates their own illusions. That's no way to live life.
When will the ruling elite realize that you can't continually lie to people "for their own good?" When will they muster the courage to face the political suicide of decriminalizing these substances and start treating them as health problems? I don't think they ever will, since they are far more concerned with re-election than they are with working for the common good. My God, working for the common good is COMMUNIST!!!
Take a long, hard look at the new position of former hardline antidrug proponents George F. Will and George Shultz...two very conservative elders. They both have agreed that criminalization of drugs serves no purpose other than to turn a sizable percentage of our population into criminals, while killing many who don't have access to proper information or are caught in the gang-related crossfire.
You can't use "it's dangerous" as a justifiable reason for the lies and drug laws since Tylenol has a higher toxicity rating than almost every recreational drug on the market. No, it must be something else.
Could it be that the Drug War employs thousands of people? Could it be that those of us most likely to take drugs are those most likely to initiate some changes in our diseased political system? Could it be that it fills our prison system with cheap labor (less than a dollar a day pay scale) to produce goods that compete with foreign labor markets? Could it be that the drug cartels that crop up in every sector of the world do a better job of keeping their local populace in line (i.e. anti-communist) than any government could? Could it be that fat cats with their 4 martini lunches and smuggled Cuban cigars love the power of throwing the counter culture into prison?
Who knows. All I know is that every aspect is wrong. Economically wrong. Ethically wrong. Pragmatically wrong. Morally wrong. They sit atop a crumbling heap that is the ruin of our civilization because it keeps them at the top of the heap long past their due.
I only wish I had the motivation to follow Thomas Jefferson's words of so many years ago: "a little revolution every 20 years is a good thing (paraphrased)."
Take a look at nature for the answers...systems are ripped apart to allow new growth; forest fires, hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanos, winter, fer Chrissakes. Yet still the "higher-ups" try to impose a structure counter to our very base natures; they try in vain to hold off entropy so their comfortable position won't be threatened. In doing so, more laws must be inacted, more straps tied around the beast that drives change...and when those straps finally break (which they will...they must), the built up momentum could very well be more violent than anything they could have ever imagined.
We are human. We are spawned from nature. It's rules still apply to us, regardless of how far above it we think we are. The longer we deny it, the greater the inevitable backlash.
My apologies for the mental meanderings...I am in quite a mood today.
*Sticky wanders off to shake the sprawling, rambling, pretentious thoughts out of his head...time for a good cortical scrub*

Boppity
19-05-2000, 20:02
Mother of 2: I too send you my love and sympathy in the situation.
With regards to the situation, I have only a few things to add:
1. Please bare in mind that in the black market, many pills are sold as "ecstasy" but that does not mean those pills actually contain MDMA. Case in point: I was offered "pure E" at a rave, and I asked the guy selling it, "...do you have any mdma powder?" To which he said, "What's that?"
2. Too many kids still think that, like other drugs, if you keep taking more MDMA you'll stay high. The truth is, once your seretonin is released and absorbed, your roll stops. No more pills will bring back the roll. Eating more is not the answer. Taking breaks (2-3 weeks) in between rolls is one of the only safe(er) methods of preventing neurotoxic damage as well as keeping away an MDMA tolerance.
3. TEST YOUR DAMNED PILLS/POWDER. Is your life not worth the $10 for a test kit? In the underground, when it comes to drugs, you can trust NOBODY. Not even your friends...because even though they might not be malicious, you might not know who they bought their stuff from and so forth. NEVER take it personally when your friends want to test a pill you have for sale.
4. This is just like the debate back in the day when condoms should be made available to kids in school (and even further back to the arguments of sex education in general). Regardless of the law, we know people will do whatever they want. Isn't it better to make the truth known (from both sides of any argument) so those individuals who do decide to take drugs, have sex, get an abortion, etc., make informed choices? I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a child testing his or her pills and learning about how the drug works than having them not care and eat 4 pills and then suddenly have to have their liver removed in emergency surgery...ya know?
Finally, the only person you can really change/influence is yourself. No matter how much we love anyone else, we can only offer them acceptance and support. If you have children who use drugs...discuss the situation maturely. If you don't want them to do drugs, tell them WHY. Present information (scientific evidence, not an NBC news show) that shows any side-effects or results from long-term use. Let them know that regardless of the choices they make you'll still love them but also let them know where you stand on the issue. It might break your heart to see your child doing something you don't want them to...but is alienation and condemnation any way to make the situation better?
It's very sad what happened...but ecstasy did not kill them...irresponsibility and (most likely) uninformed choice/arrogance is what really brought about the problem.
Love & Hugs,
Jim

Motherof2
19-05-2000, 20:23
You are absoultely correct on all your issues. I talk very openly to my family, and my family extends beyond my children, their friends and their family. I have passed on information from you all, some just roll their eyes and some really listen. We had a news broadcast last night regarding these Mitsubishi's that these are not estasy (MDMA) that they are PMA's. And the symptons that this young man had, matched pretty damn close to what they where saying. I have talked to few about this testing that I was told about. And was asked to gather information to how they can obtain
this.(I have found out how) It's scaring in a way because I don't want them to think that I approve of this, but in the same token I want them to be safe. Then of course I have issues with some of the other parents, with me providing this information. I told one parent that if we don't start education our kids and getting involved, we are going to see a lot more deaths. (we can't make them stop, but we can provide them with education and testing equipement). They say with us providing this that we are also agreeing to them using. That's not what your doing in my eyes. But I can only do as I feel fit.
So to all that use, please test your stuff. It could mean the difference between life or death.
[This message has been edited by Motherof2 (edited 19 May 2000).]

eds-hed
20-05-2000, 11:06
mother of two congratulations to you for having the intellegence not to take the issue at face value eg ecstasy=death
please try to educate those around you as well, this information needs to be spread further than an internet chat site.
When an australian girl anna woods died after excess water consumption on ecstasy the media leapt all over the story, this scaremongering created fear and hate but failed to educate please let others know what you have discovered.

p I k
20-05-2000, 11:56
my condolensences towards this boy. I know how it can feel when you lose someone under unecessary circumstances. but you have to realize that he didn't die because of the MDMA itself.
remember that you're not getting high of MDMA alone. it causes a chemical reaction with the creation of seretonin in you brain. so your actually, getting high off your own body's chemical. acid has a reciprocal effect. LSD has a similar chemical makeup to seretonin, and it "tricks" your body into having more than needed. MDMA intensfies the effect, whereas LSD mimics it. but noone has actually ever died because of the MDMA itself. people have died due to heat exhaustion, which is a side effect of Ecstasy. over time, your body gets dehydrated, hence the abundance of water at parties.
-p I k

p I k
20-05-2000, 12:01
when it comes to the use of Ecstasy, most important is to educate yourself. read as much as you can about MDMA, MDA, and/or MDEA. "Ecstasy. Dance, Trance and Transformation," by Nicholas Saunders is good for startes. it's good to do your homework before the acutal test sometimes. : )
-p I k

soulwatcher
24-05-2000, 04:43
What is frightening is not the pills were in fact PMA, something that is happening more often nowadays, but that he took 9 pills. But even 3-4 pills of PMA can kill.
Lessons to be learned from this tragedy:
1.Education about what you are putting in your body.
2. more is not better. more will not get your higher. more is dangerous.9 pills of MDMA might harm someone, let alone PMA.
3. testing is absolutely essential. It could save your life. Had this boy had access to a kit and tested, he would have realized that it was not MDMA. As someone said, isnt $10 worth the life it may save?
Unfortunately we live in a culture where instant gratification is important to so many people. Hence our drive thru's, our cell phones, ever faster computer access, and even our eating and drug habits. We want to feel good, fast. and we want what we want for as long as possible. And sadly, when it comes to drugs, people die that way.
Motherof2, please sit down with your kids and discuss with them everything you have learned. It is quite likely that they have tried some form of drug by this point, and the more they know, the easier it will be for them to make informed decisions about what they do with their lives. And bravo to you for your ability to act sensibly and intelligently. You truly are an adult.
peace
soulwatcher

Lucentrip
24-05-2000, 22:00
9 pills is more than enough to have a severe adverse effects on a person... It wouldn't have to be PMA or cut with anything more dangerous. I recently had my first and last near-overdose experience with five of the small yellow unmarked MDMA pills floating around the Midwest (over a 10 hour period)... I didn't initially realize it in the morning, but after the 5th pill I have no memory of anything that occurred, until my boyfriend walked through the doorway to my bedroom the next morning (I had never left)... friends who were present told me I was up and active, but not coherent, certainly "f*cked up."
Of course this wasn't intentional, I can't explain it other than to say that it is not something I care to handle again. The next morning my extremities were tingling, and I couldn't maintain a vertical position for more than 10 seconds without my ears plugging up and a severe sharp whining shrieking through my head, followed by a sparkling grey fog overtaking everything. I was extremely tired, and unable to follow chains of thought to their conclusion (I would get up, move across the room to perform some task, and forget the task before I moved four steps). I'm naturally a very tangential person, creative bursts of intuition, etc, but it was absolutely ridiculous...
Others there that evening had taken five pills, but they were both male, and definitely larger than my 102 lbs, a fact which I didn't really take into account... I had simply been keeping up with my friends. Bad move on my part... I still haven't fully recovered. My seratonin levels are very low. I'm a natural optimist with definite tendencies towards positivity, but these last few days have presented me with a bleaker outlook on life than I ever imagined could occur due to a simple chemical imbalance.
It's very frustrating to have to manually wrestle your mind into a positive state, against all chemical urges of your body. Also, I still have surges of tingling throughout my body, they come in spurts, and focus in my knees and wrists and lower back, not painful, but like a swell of prickling (it's not a bad feeling, as I said, but it's definitely not natural).
Up until just last month I was very careful with my ecstasy intake, one pill every two weeks roughly, but it increased with supply, and things seemed to escalate (I go through cycles of extreme interest and then indifference, simply my nature, but over-indulgence in certain things is simply not good). It's a good idea to take a break and rebalance. Not to mention the fact that a roll that causes you to lose those three hours of your life isn't exactly worth the money dealt out for it...
Sorry for the ramble, but the topic seemed relevant after my first/last scare....
And before I forget, Fuzzzone, yes, people DO spend that much money on rolls in one night. Not to mention the people that are dealing, and simply skim free rolls off of the top because they earn them out of their profits. It's not just teenagers that use ecstasy...
[This message has been edited by Lucentrip (edited 24 May 2000).]

Dtergent
25-05-2000, 07:58
test your pills!

Dtergent
25-05-2000, 08:07
it will take time for a society to mature. but it does happen. for instance, in england, the parliament and even prince charles are apparently for decriminalization of ecstasy use. they have faith in the responsibility of their people.
that's all it takes, actually, a little responsibility, becuase ecstasy does no harm really. TEST YOUR PILLS AND KNOW YOUR LIMITS. you may be giving ecstasy a bad name, at the expense of all the responsible users.
------------------
he not busy being born is busy dying.
[This message has been edited by Dtergent (edited 25 May 2000).]

TuckerBoi
25-05-2000, 09:47
Fuzzy: There's an ocean in Montana??
J/K http://www.bluelight.ru/ubb/smile.gif
I totally agree with you.

Lucentrip
25-05-2000, 15:11
Hm, I agree as well. Strong theme in my life are is balance... most things are only dangerous once you veer from the realm of moderation.

paddyboy
26-05-2000, 04:12
Dtergent:
I wish you were correct, but unfortunately parliament and even Prince Charles do NOT support the theory of decriminalisation in the UK.
Over a month ago an independent report based on two years of research chaired by Lady Runcimann was presented to the Government of this country. The research was carried out and reviewed by academics, drug support workers, ex-police chiefs etc and was given the backing of the Police Foundation, an organisation whose chief patron is Prince Charles.
The report had many interesting recommendations, two of which were seized on by the press. Firstly it was suggested that MDMA and marijuana be reclassified on the basis of their potential harm to class B and class C substances respectively (to give some perspective, alcohol and tobacco were classified using the same criteria and were given nominal class A and class B status respectively). Secondly it was suggested that carrying small amounts of Ecstasy and marijuana should no longer be a criminal offence, instead a warning/fine system should be in place to avoid the jailing of huge numbers of people for non-violent crime and allow the police to concentrate on dealers.
The Runcimann Report, painstakingly compiled with evidence to prove what you and I know to be common sense was delivered to the Prime Minister and renounced by him and the Home Office on the same day. They are not going to change anything on the basis of facts and figures, only on the fear of the opposition party saying that they have gone "soft on drugs" (and we all know what that would mean - teenage heroin addicts roaming the streets, muggings, burglaries, the whole social fabric of Britain being torn apart by young people starting with marijuana and moving onto heroin via amphetamines, ecstasy, cocaine and lsd in a matter of weeks). The newspapers gave them a hard time for a week and won the promise of a "serious debate" on the issue although Home Secretary Jack Straw said in the same breath that although the argument for decriminalisation had its good points it was "fatally flawed" ie he would never agree to it. The "serious debate" has never materialised.
Thus it is that the UK actually has the toughest drug laws in the West outside of the USA (not surprising seeing as how we copy everything the US government does in these matters, whether it works or not) and as a result the second highest rate of drug abuse and drug-related crime (after the USA).
Please don't give the impression that there are intelligent people running this country, it is run purely to win the votes of the people who can be bothered voting ie the middle class, middle aged gin-swiggers who wouldn't know crack cocaine from the crack in their ass.
Cynicism doesn't suit me but it's all I can write on this issue.