"Ask the Muslim sympathiser" ;)

As Salaamu Aleikum, first of all

OK, I realize this might be a big mistake, but at least it's not in CE&P.

The reason for this thread is that I have noticed on this board and in the world in general there is a great deal of interest, debate, and oppinions on the subject of Islam and the Muslim world. Now, I am not a Muslim, but I have a great and deep respect for Islamic culture and have studied it for years. I regularly read the Quran which I keep by me bedside, it is the one religion in the world that gives me the most comfort and hope. Yet I do not adhere to many of it's principles, so out of respect to Muslims everywhere I do not attempt to call myself a Muslim by any means. I am just a sympathiser and an enthusiast.

That being said - I do think I might be able to answer some questions and hopefully dispell some misconceptions about this great religion and culture. If anyone has constructive questions to ask - questions that you feel I may be qualified to answer even being a non-Muslim myself - please do not hesitate to post.

If anything I hope this thread could lead to greater understanding between different cultures - being raised in a Christian family and eventually gravitating towards Islam I feel I have a somewhat relevant perspective on the two and their interactions. I wish for nothing more than harmony and understanding of what links the two - but I realize most questions will be to do with more exotic elements of Islam - that is what stands out to outsiders and interests them the most.

Anyway, I won't ramble on - just thought this might generate some interesting discussion. Remember that I am not setting myself up as an authority on Islam - I am just someone that has spent time looking into the issue - probably more than most Westerners. Best of all would be to get contributions from Muslims on this site - I know a couple of really great ones already - but I will allow them to come forward on their own if they wish to participate.

Mah As-Salaama

--- G.

The very first line you've stuffed up..

You shouldn't use that greeting unless you're a muslim.



Even if you were a muslim, you shouldn't greet non-muslims that way.

Thought you might like to know, since you respect their religion and all :D

Dimmo: I sent you a PM.

Dimmo: That may be what some cleric somewhere said sometime - but I happen to live in a community of about a million Muslims that I greet like this every day and they greet me back with ti every day - it's just the proper thing to do in order to show respect - I have never heard anyone get offended by it.

In fact, I actually spoke to the Imam of Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem and greeted him with the full As Salaamu Aleikum Wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh and he replied: Waleikum Salaam wa Rahmatullah Wa Barakatuh".

So, I dunno, it seems to be cool with everyone I've met

--- G.

Participation so far indicates a distinct lack of enthusiasm, so never mind then, probably not a swell idea anyway

Mods might as well lock it, or let it drift down the page, or whatever. I'll refrain from deleting it for now...

--- G.

^What is heaven for muslims? How many virgins to they get exactly??? And why does Islam oppress women like it does? What is heaven for women? Is there a hell? Is there a "devil"? Is that a good start?

Haha, OK, I guess I might as well give it a shot. I was sleep deprived and feeling misunderstood when I started the thread last night, but I'll give it a shot.

Heaven in Islam is called "Jannah" - it is more or less the equivalent of the Christian conception of heaven as it is based on the same foundation of Judaic tradition. You get rewarded for following the scriptures - it is implied that good Jews and good Christians are all but equally rewarded in the afterlife as good Muslims because they all share the basic foundation of Abraham's tradition. Hell is obviously an extremely unpleasant prospect - again there is talk of fire and brimstone like in Christianity and Judaism.

Now, the whole issue of the 77 Virgins is basically a misunderstanding - but based on some wording in the Quran regarding the pleasures of heaven. The Quran goes into somewhat greater detail about heaven than the Bible (although I haven't read the Bible as much) - it describes trees made of gold which offer you it's tasty fruits by themselves - it describes hoardes of beautiful and unmarried women, etc. etc. There are eight different gates, I think four rivers (I could have the rivers wrong) and all kinds of other details. It apparently takes 40 years to walk at full pace from one gate of Heaven to another. Apparently there are varying states of actually "being in heaven" just as there are varying states of "being in hell" - depending on your behaviour on earth.

Now - THAT BEING SAID - here's the kicker: all the descriptions are just meant to entice your imagination about what it is actually like. In different places it is made clear that attempting to describe heaven in words is a fallacy, that it is eternal and can be ALL THINGS to all different people - an endless state of joy that takes no specific earthly form, I back this view up with these Hadith:

"I have prepared for My righteous servants what no eye has ever seen nor ear heard nor any human being ever conceived of." (Hadith Qudsi-Bukhari &Muslim)

"No soul knows what delights of the eye are kept hidden from them of joy, as a reward for what they did."

However, the glorious descriptions to mention details like I mentioned before. Keep in mind that an unmarried woman is the only woman you can possibly ever want - Arab culture at the time of the emergence of Islam was a very traditional culture in which monogamy for women was as important as we know it is in most traditional societies around the world. Thus, you would never want to take another man's wife - and an unmarried woman HAS to be a virgin for obvious reasons (sex outside marriage being a big no-no in all cultures) - the net result is that if you want to get laid in heaven it has to be with a virgin. And who hasn't honestly thought about the pleasures of the afterlife including something like that?

The following verses are the basis for the myth of the 77 virgins:

"So [it will be] and We shall marry them to Houris with wide lovely eyes." [44:54] - Houris are unwed women (presumably virgins!).

"Verily, for al-Muttaqoon, there will be a success; gardens and grapeyards and young full-breasted [mature] maidens of equal age." [78:31-33]

"Verily, We have created [their companions] of special creation, and made them virgin-pure [and undefiled], beloved [by nature], equal in age." [56:35-37]
'
"...whom no man or jinn has touched before them." [55:56]

Now, let's remember the context of this - it is being talked about generally for Muslims but specifically for Martyrs of Islam. Martyrs being warriors, and all warriors at the time being men, the chapters speaking to how THEIR heaven would look like are of-course male-centric. It is however made clear that ALL your desires come true in Jannah, no matter what gender you are, so women can have as many boy-toys as they like. It's all good, in actuality some believe these wouldn't even be actual humans but spirits created by God (might call them angels, I suppose, although Islam does have "real" angels that are pretty much serving the same purpose as the ones in Judaic tradition - the Quran was revealed by Gabriel himself to Muhammed!).

OK, this is getting pretty long, I'll sort out what is left in the next post

--- G.

I am in the process of reading your post...But listen, you are making Islam sound way too nice and accepting towards Jews and Christians. We ALL know that is NOT the case in real life. I just wanted to point this out to you...I will continue reading

Oh yeah, i will be checking into most of what you write so please answer honestly, if you dont know just say you dont know. Thanks.

SoHiAllTheTime said:

^What is heaven for muslims? How many virgins to they get exactly??? And why does Islam oppress women like it does? What is heaven for women? Is there a hell? Is there a "devil"? Is that a good start?

Click to expand...

What do you mean by oppress women? The Koran requires women to dress modestly (it says the same thing about men), this is interpreted in diffrent ways by different muslims though, it could mean wearing a burka to extremists, or it could mean normal clothes+a headscarf (hair is considrerd sexual in some cultures) or it could mean normal, non revealing clothing like you would wear. Even headscarves are far from oppressive (unless you want to argue that Judeism is oppressive to men because they have to cover their heads too). If your just talking about the general (men as the head of the household garbage, the same stuff is in the bible and its more cultural than religious). There are pleanty of Christians who "opress" their women too, its never right, but its not an exclusive feature of Islam.

Here is something to back up the view that the "virgins" in heaven are spirits and not actually human beings:

"If one of the women of Paradise were to look at the people of this world, everything in between them would be lit up and filled with her fragrance. The veil on her head is better than this world and everything in it." [al-Bukhaari, in as-Saheeh, Kitaab al-Jihaad, Baab wa Zawwajnahum bi Hoor-'Eeyn. Fath al-Baari,6 /15]

There are tons of Hadith (short sayings and rulings attributed to Muhammed but NOT Allah, importance difference from the Quran) where people pester him about details on heaven. Basically, whatever they ask the answer is "Sure, there'll be lots of that, too." - the implication being that anything is possible in heaven

It should be noted that your last wife will be with you in heaven according to some Hadiths and interpretations, reigning as QUEEN over all your beautiful virgins

Why? Muhammad explains in this Hadith:

"‘The women of this world will have superiority over the hurs just as the outer lining of a garment has superiority over the inner lining.’ Umm-e-Salma (Radhiallaahu Anhu) then asked, ‘O Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), what is the reason for this?’ He answered, ‘Because they performed Salaat, fasted and worshipped Allah. Allah will put light on their faces and silk on their bodies. (the human women) will be fair in complexion and will wear green clothing and yellow jewellery. Their incense-burners will be made of pearls and their combs will be of gold. They will say, ‘We are the women who will stay forever and we will never die. We are the women who will always remain in comfort and we will never die. We are the women who will always remain in comfort and we will never undergo difficulty. We are the women who will stay and we will never leave. Listen, we are happy women and we will never become sad. Glad tidings to those men for whom we are and who are for us.’ "

So, basically, it's complex

Now, for hell and the Devil!
First of all, the Devil used to be a "Jinn", these are semi-demons, for lack of a better word - basically they were created as God's servants 25 thousand years ago but they were arrogant and had mischievous streak. They started giving God some lip so he sent his Angels to destroy them - during a fierce battle this one Jinn by the name of Iblis distinguished himself and was brought up to the Heavens themselves in order to come back into the fold and help convert the Jinn back to being true believers (more or less). Jinn live longer than humans but can take many forms - basically they tend to be up to no good and today they are believed to have at least strong sympathies for the Devil - some of them work with him.

Anyway, when God finished creating Adam he commanded the Jinn to prostrate themselves before him and bow to man as the new #1 dudes in creation

They all obviously obeyed (not obeying God was not in fashion at this point - they knew better), except Iblis! He refused to bow before any creature on Earth. He was summarily cast out of heaven, became "the fallen angel" (BUT - remember that in Islam he was not an Angel - he was an honorary Jinn who was allowed to live with the Angels for a time while he studied under God himself) and eventually he was banished to hell and given the name Al-Shaitan (yup, same root as Satan).

He will be dealt with on Judgment day by God himself - but untill then he is more or less the leaders of the fallen Jinn (demons) - the #1 Shaitan of them all - but he is not the source of all evil - he is simply an adherant of evil and spends all his days trying to tempt mankind away from God!

Hope that cleared up some stuff, I'm gonna see about adressing the "are women oppressed in Islam" thing later tonight - it's a pretty huge and controversial topic overall.

--- G.

p.s. corrections are welcome, I realize there will probably be some confusions and such since I am heavily paraphrasing and trying to be brief about a very large subject matter

SoHiAllTheTime said:

I am in the process of reading your post...But listen, you are making Islam sound way too nice and accepting towards Jews and Christians. We ALL know that is NOT the case in real life. I just wanted to point this out to you...I will continue reading

Oh yeah, i will be checking into most of what you write so please answer honestly, if you dont know just say you dont know. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Ah, but the Islamic scriptures are very nice and accepting towards Jews and Christians, it goes out of it's way to make that point over and over and over. Modern realities are of course very very different, but this has more to do with historical itneractions between the three cultures than it does with actual scripture. You won't find much ammunition for hate of Christians or Jews in the Quran - but the Islamic world has clashed spectacularly with those two other religions in the past (most notably in the Cruisades and the Spanish Inquisition).

I'd say that if history hadn't been such a bitch - there is absolutely no theological reason for Muslims to have anything against Christians or Jews.

As for fact checking - feel free - but remember that while you will find lots of references agreeing with some of the interepretations I have put forth you will also find many others giving a different view - this is the nature of religious debate. However - I think you will find that all I have written is factual or at least fairly representative of a moderate modern Islamic view.

--- G.

Oh, and btw, Al-Shaitan means "transgressor"

--- G.

WhatAnOddGuy said:

What do you mean by oppress women? The Koran requires women to dress modestly (it says the same thing about men), this is interpreted in diffrent ways by different muslims though, it could mean wearing a burka to extremists, or it could mean normal clothes+a headscarf (hair is considrerd sexual in some cultures) or it could mean normal, non revealing clothing like you would wear. Even headscarves are far from oppressive (unless you want to argue that Judeism is oppressive to men because they have to cover their heads too). If your just talking about the general (men as the head of the household garbage, the same stuff is in the bible and its more cultural than religious). There are pleanty of Christians who "opress" their women too, its never right, but its not an exclusive feature of Islam.

Click to expand...

Noooo...I am talking about how women are oppressed in Islamic countries worse than anywhere in the world. If this is news to you, where have you been living?

ML: I appreciate your efforts... I know how hard this type of thing can be, thanks for spending the time to do this.

SoHiAllTheTime said:

I am in the process of reading your post...But listen, you are making Islam sound way too nice and accepting towards Jews and Christians. We ALL know that is NOT the case in real life. I just wanted to point this out to you...I will continue reading

Click to expand...

We all know no such thing. None of the Moslems in my family have ever been anything but nice and accepting. Well, my devoutly Islamic grandparents were less than overjoyed about their son actually marring a non-Moslem, but they got over it; my devoutly Christian grandparents were the exact same way.

^You are denying that muslims HATE Jews!!!???

Of course some Muslims hate Jews. Are you denying that Jews HATE Muslims?

--- G.

Not at all...But they arent the ones trying to affiliate themselves with muslims and Allah. Basically, they just want their little piece of land among all the land in the Middle East and to be left alone. Its the muslims who are contradicting themselves. firt they say all this good stuff about Jews and christians (IMO to make themsekves look good) but their actions are horrendous! What other religion has suicide bombers??? So i hardly think it is the same comparing how the Jews feel about muslims to how the muslims feel about Jews.

the christain religion has those who shoot abortionist and claim it's for a good cause.....and the crusades all in the name of God.

sohi, I think you need to take a step back from current politics and look at the history of Muslim-Jewish relations. For the most part, Jews were relatively well treated in Muslim countries, certainly in comparison to how they were treated under Christian authority. My grandparents are Iraqi Jews, and this is a topic i've looked into.

Of course, the advent of Zionism defintely soured Jewish-Muslim relations, as they remain today. But the bitterness between the two people has nothing to do with the content of their respective religions, and has everything to do with competing national interests.

If you need any further convincing, consider that Jews always lived in Jerusalem, free to practice their religion under Muslim authority. Indeed, when the European Zionist Jews arrived in Palestine and claimed the land, many of the indigenous Jews were vehemently opposed to Zionism, and continue to be to this day.