Buddhism: Turning your killer instinct upon itself.

So, I became a buddhist tonite. Thought I'd share it with you. It is quite a relief for me.

I recall in high school, I did a paper on zen buddhism. In my research, I came across the concept of enlightenment. Zazen. I think the only sure thing from my research was that the sense of zazen cannot be communicated, cannot be taught, really. You just have to medidate long enough, and hope your mind spins off in the right tangent and BOOM, your enlightened. And then you won't be able to tell anyone how to get there, either.

As a perfect product of the rational Western civilization, I was opposed to this concept with every fiber of my being. I majored in philosophy and studied, and idolized, logic. And rationally anything that can be experienced, can be communicated. So I had a fundamental skepticism of enlightenment. It was not logical to have an uncommunicatable truth.

So, perhaps from that time in high school and since, my goal in life as been to achieve enlightenment and to rationally figure it out and dissect it so that it can be communicated, marketed, mass produced. To bring enlightenment to the masses.

Now, though, I think that the problem is not that you cannot communicate enlightenment, but that there does not seem to be any point. Whether you find it or not, your part of the dance. And the point is to enjoy the dance, no matter where the steps lead.

But since it has been essentially the life's work of a genius (myself) to both achieve enlightenment, and to find out how to logically break it down and communicate it, now that I have achieved the former, I may as well give the latter a shot.

Buddhism is the process of turning your killer instinct upon itself. We, each of us, has a killer instinct. A sense to kill if it means saving yourself. To struggle for life. And you can go on struggling for life, your whole life, but what happens in the end? You lose. If you keep struggling for life, your whole life is a losing situation and all the cars and jewelry and fine wine and drugs won't change that.

See, enlightenment is choosing to perceive life as a game you can win. You spend your life trying to nurture and bring about as much other life as possible, and to kill and hurt as little as possible, and regardless of how successful you are, your life is still a winner.

And the way you do that, the way you change the rules of the game mid-stream, is to turn your killer instinct upon itself. It may sound like suicide, but it is not. Perhaps suicide of your ego to some degree.

Look at it this way: I've spent my whole life thinking, "What the hell do I want to do next?" And it got me to a mental and emotional quaqmire because I DID NOT KNOW. So I created distractions for myself, ways to pretend that the outside world was keeping me to busy to figure out what I wanted to do next. The truth is, I just did not know what, if I were entirely free to choose and had no obligations or limits, what would I want to do? We all of us spend our lives distracting ourselves from the impossibility of answering this question. Because it is fundamentally unanswerable.

For a couple years now, I have been applying all my powers of analysis at figuring out what DO I want to do next if I were perfectly free. The question is an endless spiral. It is impossible to answer. Because if you were entirely free, you would not want anything. Your wants are a product of the limitations and forces that are acting upon you. You think your "wants" are free will, but that are just reflex actions.

Anyway, you can spend your life in the hopeless pursuit of an answer to that question of what you would want if you were free -- chasing an endless spiral -- or you can CHANGE from asking yourself, "What do I want?" to asking yourself. "What can I do for the universe?" To see your life as one of service to the universe is the ultimate freedom, the only way to avoid the hopeless attempt to figure out, if you had your druthers and were entirely free and unencumbered, what would YOU want to do next? That is a meaningless, unanswerable question.

What do I want? -- that question is the trap. If you ask the question, you have already fallen into the trap. You think that your wants make you free. You think expressing what you want is an exercise of free will. But in fact you have no wants that are not reflections of your attempt to protect your ego. Let it go. You don't need an ego that bad. You won't be able to take it with you when you die.

So, anyway, enlightenment is recognizing the hopelessness of asking what you want, and giving yourself hope by changing the rules to ask, from the very start, what you can do to be of service. Completely release your ego, and you will be freed.

You know, I also used to think that enlightened people probably had crappy sex lives, because they did not have the thrill of shame, of dirtiness, of nastiness that gives sex its spice. But now I think the sex gets better with enlightenment. And, in fact, I've probably found enlightenment mainly for the sexual benefits. I mean, being the true servant of life means doing anything that would bring your signifcant other greater pleasure, no matter how odd or kinky, absolutely without judgment and, rather, with a fun sense of excitement to see how off the wall and unexpected the other person's ideas might be.

Well, other than that one paper on Zen Buddhism in high school, I've never studied the subject. In fact, I got a degree in philosophy without being 100% sure what Buddhism was. Which seems odd to me, on reflection. Perhaps my killer instinct steered me away from the topic because it sensed danger to itself, because it looked out of my eyes and saw that there were people walking around who apparently had no killer instict, and so my own killer instict got a sense of its own mortality, and has been fighting for survival. After all, what else would you expect your killer instinct to do anyways? And it did that by steering me away from such topics or people when, in fact, you'd think that Buddhism would be a subject I would have rushed right towards being a liberal, secular humanist. Anyway, my killer instinct put up quite a fight. Managed to steer me clear of asking the right questions for a long time. Because it did not want to die.

Well, in fact, my killer instinct is not dead. But I have turned it upon itself, which may work out to much the same thiing. But I like to keep in mind I have not killed it, but rather am letting it fully express itself, upon itself.

So now I'll try to go through the rest of my life doing as little harm as possible and nurting life as much as I can while I pass through. This means no longer eating meat, for example.

If that is buddhism, then that's what I am. And, though I mentioned about surrender of your ego before, that is not exactly right. Because I still have an ego. In fact, it strokes my ego quite a bit to have hit on this way to turn the struggle for life from a certain loser, to a winning game, by changing the rules mid-game. And I feel a sense of immense personal satisfaction to that may be a temporary product of zazen, or may be with me as long as I continue to live as a Buddhist. Basically, I'm admitting that I still have enough ego to enjoy patting myself on the back for having figured out this particular riddle.

Anyway, I guess the bottom line is to stop worrying about death and extinction because they WILL happen. No reason to bring more death and extinction struggling against the inevitable. And the question "What do I want" is answerless, an endless and hopeless spiral of meaningless fluff. Your life is meaningless until you decide to ask the question, "What would be best for the universe?"

And if you MUST kill something, why not your killer instinct?

Some may think that our killer instinct is what allows us to survive. That to defeat it is to commit species-suicide. But choosing not to kill to live, is not the same as killing yourself. In fact, suicide is a form of killing, an expression of the killer instinct not upon itself, but upon its host. So our species would not immediately collapse and expire upon the spread of this doctrine of "live and let live." But, really, so what if it did? Because the point is that humanity WILL be extinct one day. That is as certain as your own mortality. And in the end, when humanity is gone from the universe, will we be remembered as that blight that went out clawing and scratching all the way to the end, or as the loving, nurturing neighbor?

I mean, I know how many of you will just NOT be able to give up the idea of clawing and scratching to survive. But the bottom line is that WILL fail. You WILL die. So your consciousness has the ability to recognize your fleshly limitations and chart a path that gives a sense of meaning to your existence even though it is fleeting. And that is by making your life a positive experience for everyone you come into contact with.

Well, since 10th grade, I can view my life as the quest to find out what zen enlightenment was, and then to figure out how to communicate it in language and in rational terms. I hope you do not think me too egotistical to note that I am technically a genius and, in fact, have never met anyone who could prove they were smarter than me (though I have suspiciously avoided life choices that would bring my intellect into rigourous challenge or scrutiny, at least before posting here). Anyway, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back for being smart. The point, though, is not to be smart. It is to be right. Anyway, just giving you the background for my effort to articulate enlightenment. Here is the product. Well, the first draft. Enjoy.

~psychoblast~

p.s. We'll see if this makes sense when I sober up.

p.p.s. It occurs to me that maybe everything I've said can be found in any basic buddhism book, and I spent decades essentially re-inventing the wheel. But I think that if so, I still don't regret taking my own path to these truths. The truths may, in fact, make regret impossible.

I thought up another analogy (my gift, perhaps, at least in my own opinion). When you choose to eat what tastes GOOD to you, you THINK you are engaging in an act of free will. But you aren't. Because what you think tastes good is a reflection of things outside of yourself. To choose to eat what tastes good is to choose a life of reflex action, a life that is actually DEVOID of free will. The act of true free will is to say, "No matter what it tastes like, I'm going to eat what will make my body healthiest."

And I'm not talking about just a little bit, trying to eat healthier here and there. I'm talking about losing all sense of ego over taste at all, so your sole consideration before each meal is "What will best make my body healthy?"

It might be hard to be that free. Before tonight, I did not even recognize how to think of freedom in those terms.

~psychoblast~

Not to feed the little bit of ego you may still have remaining and all, but I quite enjoy your long posts, displaying your complex thoughts, quirky emotions, and amusing logic. And for some reason when I read your words I always sense this sarcastic, cynical, mocking kind of tone of voice to it that I often find myself identifying with. I dunno. Regardless, I enjoy reading your shit. It's good, quality shit. And I hope you keep aspiring to be a writer, and do not call that goal quits as I've heard you explain around here rather recently.

I mean, even with abolishing all cravings and all.

And the vegetarian thing: won't you miss chilli?

And this idea of turning your killer instinct in on itself -- very interesting. I always liked Buddhism, the bit I've read on it, though I find myself more oriented towards Theravada. I'm in the process of reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle maintainance, but I've been sidetracked by two other books. Not that I buy into Buddhism completely, I don't. I'm certain I don't entirely understand it yet. From what you say, that may damn near be impossible until I meditate often enough and good enough to mix my stew of consciousness in the right way.

And it may be an aspiring desire, this desire to end desire. I mean, sometimes the goal of ceasing to desire sounds pretty damned good, especially when I'm overcome with ambivalent desires, impossible cravings, or simply overbearing ones that are never satisfied no matter how much you feed the hungry bastards. But I always sensed a contradiction in this whole `desiring to end all desires'. I have to admit I like your explanation of turning your killer instinct in on itself, but it still doesn't seem to settle right with me. It's probably just more appealing in a semantic sense. But like I said, I like your style of writing and your choice of words.

But I can help but wonder: once one has stopped grasping; once one has ceased this craving and aversion, once one has escaped the nasty grips of the ego entirely and reached this `enlightenment' that is the goal of the Burmese method or receptive meditation or zazen or whatever, what then?

You're in the now, you've stopped conceptualizing and united with being, you've broken away from the wheel, tread on through the swamp and made it to the light on the other side. What Now?

I mean, there's obviously something driving you towards it; a desire, a passion to end all desires, all passions. Once this goal is reached, what then? Isn't this the goal to end all goals? The journey to end all journeys? If you've already decided that pointing your finger at the moon is pointless because people will just focus on the finger (or because people will look and the moon and drool on themselves and simply not get it), then teaching this enlightenment will not be a goal of yours after abolishing all desires. Which seems a little less contradictory, in my eyes, than the act of this philosphy's founder.

So what then once the goal of enlightenment is reached? I just don't get it. Perhaps that's why I hang onto my rigid, overworn, outdated ego so tightly. I just don't see what's the point of doing otherwise. Is their growth beyond enlightenment? If not, I'd have to turn away from the middle path as a possibility as much as I've turned away from the right and the left. But seeing as how I've already gone backwards, have done my time sinking, and am not currently grounded, I'm not quite sure what else to do but float.

So please, elaborate on why one should find this `enlightenment' so appealing. With your writing skills, this should be easier for you to do than others. If this description requires some state-specific perception or mode of thinking, please, alter your consciousness as required, for I would honestly like to know: once that goal of liberation is achieved, where do we go from there? I still haven't heard Nirvana explained successfully.

These philosophies and religions, they have a bad habit of keeping there central ideas rather ambiguous. I find it annoying.

So spell it out to me, Occam style.

I don't believe that enlightenment is the same for each person... the end result will tend to be the same, but often the path taken to this end will be different from person to person... that would make it difficult to bring "enlightenment to the masses" as it were... I also don't believe that all people can be enlightened... I think that there is much more to enlightenment then the final jump that you speak of... there must be some sort of outer awareness in the person before hand otherwise your words would fall on deaf ears...

in the end enlightenment is a tricky thing... you can't actively search for it... enlightenment isn't discovering anything new, there is no secret at the end of the tunnel... it's simply a change in your priorities... when you finally get what is important in your life straight... and as a result, the mind becomes freer...

psychoblast said:

For a couple years now, I have been applying all my powers of analysis at figuring out what DO I want to do next if I were perfectly free. The question is an endless spiral. It is impossible to answer. Because if you were entirely free, you would not want anything. Your wants are a product of the limitations and forces that are acting upon you. You think your "wants" are free will, but that are just reflex actions.

Click to expand...

If I were perfectly free, I can still have wants... I would still have one limit, time, and that limit still produces wants... the want to experience the unknown... the want to do something different... that want to see as much of life before your time is up... enlightenment means realising there is alot that you don't know, so what is a better want then to understand a little more of the vast unknown?

psychoblast said:

Well, in fact, my killer instinct is not dead. But I have turned it upon itself, which may work out to much the same thiing. But I like to keep in mind I have not killed it, but rather am letting it fully express itself, upon itself.

Click to expand...

this is something I don't share in common with you, but I still come to the same end... my aggressive tendencies are generally suppressed without effort, simply because it is illogical... aggressive actions against another produces no desirable effects.. it's only benifitial side-effect is the release of tention, and that can be done under controlled conditions without a target for the outburst of emotional energy...

there is no reason to deny an emotion though, simply because you percieve it as being negative... emotions are tools, and should be treated as such... there are times that the "killer instinct" is important to have, but you must control it, rather then let it control you...

psychoblast said:

Well, since 10th grade, I can view my life as the quest to find out what zen enlightenment was, and then to figure out how to communicate it in language and in rational terms. I hope you do not think me too egotistical to note that I am technically a genius and, in fact, have never met anyone who could prove they were smarter than me (though I have suspiciously avoided life choices that would bring my intellect into rigourous challenge or scrutiny, at least before posting here).

Click to expand...

"genius" is just a label... it says nothing about the value of the person... I was technically a "super genius" back in school, but lack of intellectual stimuli for a couple years has decreased my performance substantually.. regardless, it was still just a label... a label I have often regretted...

even "enlightened" is just a label, a quality perhaps... it has no effect on who is a better person... just people tend to be attracted to others that they can relate too...

and to relate to your food analogy... there are 3 ways that a person can decide upon a dish... one, what tastes good, which you pointed out doesn't actually allow any freedom... two, what is good for me, which shows freedom to ignore what you want, and choose what is best... three, what have I not had before, which shows freedom to ignore what you want and instead taste something outside of your personal experience...

so how is asking "what should I eat that will be healthiest for me?" any different from "what should I eat that will taste the best to me?"

seems both questions are still driven by an external motivation, either satisfying a craving for good food or satisfying a goal to eat healthy.

you say eating food that tastes good deprives you of free will, but basing your meal choices only on what is good for you also restricts you from choice as well. maybe nuturing you body one day means eating Subway, then the next day your mind needs some soul food and that leads to a T-bone and a cold one.

I'm not sure of the point I'm trying to make, but that was just my impression of your analogy.

I am glad that you have finally found something that brings you personal satisfaction.

I agree with a lot of what you have said. I stopped chasing my tail a while back with other pointless questions such as 'why are we here?', 'what is objective reality?' etc..etc...

Now I am at a point where it almost feels good to not know the anwser and not care that I dont know it. Ever since then, i've calmed down on posting here, because most issues that are addressed here seem to be dealing with questions we can not know the anwser to.

But anyway, I have a question for you. What if I feel I know exactly what I want to do next and exactly what I want to do with my life? I feel as if I have an anwser to that question and that it wasn't a trap to stop and think about it. I've finally reached a conclusion and I will stop at nothing to accomplish that.

Also what about karma and dharma? Have you adopted those views as well along with buddhism? If so, how can you be sure that they are true?

The way I live my life is quite similar to that of a buddhist. Although my view of enlightenment does not consist of giving up on asking myself what do I want to do next, but rather giving up seeking anwsers to questions that will I just cannot know the anwser to. I still haven't fully come to terms with this, and something inside of me is screaming turn around and just have faith in something and believe that it is the truth and then you'll be free.

It is like it is a constant battle. The blue pill or the red pill? Sacrifice fullfilling my curiousity and come to terms with the fact that I truly know nothing pertinent to the nature of the universe, or have faith in subjective views while falsely fullfilling my curiousity.

What choice should I make? I feel that it is a dillema that stares everybody right in the face and everybody chooses their own path once they are faced with this question. Some might make the choice quicker then others because their parents, teachers, preachers prepare them and fill their mind with all sort of stuff that they have come to believe is true. However, a person can make the choice as many times as they want over and over again, as it keeps staring them right in the face once they have been confronted with it.

One must be liquid to make the right descion. One must know nothing to begin with, and then decide whether they are satisfied with what they have, or must they have more?

It seem to me that those who just have to have more, will never attain enough. No matter how much they get, they will never be satisfied, it feels as if its so much easier to just say, I give up and just be happy you have what you have, no matter how little it is.

A lot of people might say, ' if you're satisfied with what you have then you in turn sacrifice progress to bigger and better things'.

I look at this way, if I accomplish something its like winning a prize. Say you win $100 dollars, doesn't it make you feel good? What if you were to win $900 ? Wouldn't that be even better then $100? Wouldn't you want to win more next time? Thats why I dont buy the whole 'stop progress and desire for more' argument. You can still want more and be happy with what you have.


Oh well... enough mindless ranting for me at 4:02 in the morning... I'm tired... I think i'll goto bed now... blah

ooo... more posts... maybe i'll stay up ... hehe


But I can help but wonder: once one has stopped grasping; once one has ceased this craving and aversion, once one has escaped the nasty grips of the ego entirely and reached this `enlightenment' that is the goal of the Burmese method or receptive meditation or zazen or whatever, what then?


Whatever you want....


I mean, there's obviously something driving you towards it; a desire, a passion to end all desires, all passions.


Not quite, the goal is not to end desire. It is just to not care when you dont get the object of your desire but to try your best anyway and just be happy knowing that you're trying your best. Also, you have a choice to just stop trying and just not care, if you want. At which point, you can try something else, or just not do anything, whatever you want....Either way you wont care and still be satisfied with what you have.. That way, you're free....IMO


Is their growth beyond enlightenment?


What do you mean, growth? If you mean do you change mentally? Do you still progress in your ideas ? Then the anwser is yes... very much so...

I speak from a point of view of somebody who believe himself to be enlightened.. even if it is a slightly bit different from the buddhist version of enlightenement which I'm not sure of...but watever.. I'm happy this way..


once that goal of liberation is achieved, where do we go from there?


Anywhere you want to go.... unless you dont want to go anywhere which could be the case... its all up to you really...


So please, elaborate on why one should find this `enlightenment' so appealing.


This isn't directed at me, but I figure i'll take it on anyway...

Less or no stress, true happiness, contentment, constant feeling of being at peace with life and everything it involves no matter what that might be... Appealing enough?


so how is asking "what should I eat that will be healthiest for me?" any different from "what should I eat that will taste the best to me?"


It depends on what you want.. If you want to be healthy, but instead you're eating what tastes better to temporarily satisfy yourself... "I'll just eat it this once." .. then you're not really doing what you want. If you want to eat what tastes better but instead you're eating whats more healthy for you, then you're really not doing what you want.. You must first decide what you want, then act upon that... Thats what the difference is. Do what you actually want to do in the long run, and not want you temporarily want to do which you will regret in the long run...

so then are you saying you are agnostic now and not atheist or are you just taking a buddhist approach to life?

if you want some good vegetarian recipes or ideas let me know. i'll share my favorites.

Well, I don't believe in straight reincarnation. When we die, our egos expire and our experiences return to the universal consciousness. Who we are will never re-exist. The universal consciousness will fragment itself in the future, giving itself the ability to have new experiences and adventures, but I think it would be a misnomer to say that any of those new fragments have resurrected your independent ego.

Enlightenment is a form of ego death while you are still alive. If you wonder, "Why would I want my ego to die sooner rather than later?" that is a valid point. I have a theory that anyone who feels PLEASED by their enlightenment still has further to go on the path (myself included). When being enlightened is no longer a source of price or pleasure to you, you will have reached the end of the path.

On the one hand, you could view this whole fleshy existence as the opportunity for the universal consciousness -- fragmented into each ego -- to wallow in ignorance and suffering and sorrow. Because all of that stuff will create a great pleasure when those particular egos pass away and are merged into the universal consciousness. They bring the gift and pleasure of heightened appreciation.

If, instead, halfway through this lifetime you suddenly realize that your death will just return you to the universal consciousness, and that all the pain you suffer in this life will have a reflexive joy in allowing you to better appreciate your reunion with the universal consciousness, so you no longer fear pain, or death, so you no longer wallow in ignorance... Well, la-di-fucking da. Way to blow a good thing. You just messed up the whole fucking point of the experience. The POINT was to see the universe from a limited, egotistical, ignorant view point, so that after we die, we will bring a new level of appreciation for the universal consciousness. Enlightenment really fucks things up.

Or does it?

Because the point is to give the universal consciousness new experiences. Even when we are enlightened, we still retain our own ego within us, ever battling for survival. There may be a unique joy to be found in the idea of understanding our role in the universe, while yet being aware of ourselves as individual, egotistical entities within the universe. So enlightenment is the creation of a new thing, and I would generally say that anything original is good.

But anyway, I have a question for you. What if I feel I know exactly what I want to do next and exactly what I want to do with my life? I feel as if I have an anwser to that question and that it wasn't a trap to stop and think about it. I've finally reached a conclusion and I will stop at nothing to accomplish that.

Click to expand...

What you want is a reflection of the forces that have acted upon you your whole life. To seek to obtain what you want is to remain shackled. Freedom is found by devoting yourself to a life of servitude to the greater good of the universe.

A starving man may want food. He knows it, he has no doubt about it. He goes for it, he gets it, he enjoys it. That's all good. But if the man ate the food because he craved it, then he was acting as an animal, as a reflex, without free will. If the man ate the food because he independently considered the situation and decided that eating the food so that he would live would be better for the universe as a whole, then his was an act of free will.

You can keep jumping from want to want. That is fine. You will bring back some interesting perspectives to the universal consciousness living that way. Maybe enlightenment, for me, is a form of cowardice. I was so afraid of death that I had to get enlightened as the only way to defeat that fear, and so robbed the universal consciousness of all the curious and unique wants that I'd have lept to and fro for the next few decades of my life. Hopefully, my limited enlightenment will have its own appeal to the universal consciousness, though.

Not to cast doubt on my credibility on these issues, but have you ever wondered, what lies should you believe are true? You recognize that it is possible that the answer is NOT "none." And in that possibility, perhaps, rests one path to enlightenment.

~psychoblast~

"Acceptance plus love equals appreciation. Appreciate life."

I'm sorry, I didn't read everyone's entire posts so I'm not going to chime in with my thoughts on the subject. I did, however, read a few statements stating that there are a few in here that do not really understand what buddhism is. Here's a really good, simple question and answer book to help people understand what it's all about: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/gqga2.pdf

The part on reincarnation is crap, imo. But that's because I don't believe in individual reincarnation. If anything, it is the Hindu-esque form that psychoblast mentioned, in which we are shards of a greater mass of "life" or "spirit" and when we die we are absorbed into that great mass. But then again, maybe we just die and that's it.

More general books on buddhism:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_g.htm

Specific teachings of theravada buddhism:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm

Mahayana buddhism:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_ms.htm

And my favorite, meditation:
http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_m.htm
(my favorite that I've read so far is http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/chanmed1.pdf)

Hope this helps everyone's understanding. I dont have time to read the real thoughts in this thread (packing for peru), so I'm afraid I can't offer anything more enlightening on the subject. If anything, just read that question and answer book.

I understand and believe a lot of what you wrote but I do not know how one can switch off wants. Wanting something is not a process of thinking about it and then deciding yes this is what i want. Rather it is something which is felt. What I struggle with is how you can want something badly one day and then through a switch in thinking you no longer desire it?

If I refer to your post in SLR (which was a ripper BTW), how do you stop wanting someone with the same kinks? Or, how do you stop wanting a fulfilling sexual relationship? If it's a case of changing what you think a fulfilling relationship involves, how do you now think that, anal sex for example, is no longer desirable or necessary for your sexual fulfilment?

Maybe this is a case of not being able to explain how to acheive enlightenment. And maybe I am trying to acheive a higher understanding through logical questioning - in fact every time I read something along these lines, I find a need to ask more questions, which probably can't be answered.

Well, Congratulations on your decision. I hope things work out.

You cannot communicate enlightment. I think this is because non-enlightened people have no reference point in which they can understand it. They have no background experience. Its like trying to explain breathing, you can use a few words and people will understand because they have been breathing all their lives. However, with enlightment, you could use a million words and people wouldnt know cause they have never experieced anything in that field. Its why I think enlightened people use parables, not only cause everyone gets their own meaning, but coz it has a possibility of opening people up to higertruthes or awarness.

To me enlightment is about percieving the world as it is, without ego, and without all those triggers that push you in certain directions without you thinking about why your going there or what the consiquences are. Its about walking through the world without attachment, you'll still have will and stuff, you will just be far more perceptive and aware.

I dont think buddhism is about turning your killer instincts upon itself, exactly, its about letting it go. Being without it, which may make you vulnerable and open. But I dunno, guess your characteristics are more focused on killer instincts so you see it that way, but the ego has a lot of faces. Enlightment is being without ego. Ego death. Its so alien to the average person, which is why its unexplainable, but the ego sucks up most of your enegy/awarness, so without it your far more well balanced and also aware.

Though I aint a buddhist. Just worked this out via personal experience. Thats what its about, keep experiencing meditation and stuff, so that you can get into states of consciousness/awarness you have never been in. Once you do that then all previous belief systems will no longer be relevant cause they were based around your older version of perception and understanding. But its not really about belief systems anyway, no one can know everything, its about how you relate to the world and how free you are.

Most people dont want to be free and open. They want to dictate their own life, their own views and their own path. They dont want to just let go and experience all that is going on within them and around them. That is what enlightment is about. Once you let go, you stop limiting yourself.

You dont lose your wants. You just begin to see what attachments and ego's are based around your wants. Do you want something cause you need it to survive, or cause your want to inflate your ego further? Is it for escapism? That kind of thing. You kinda see the interactions between your innerself and physical things and you gain control of it.

but have you ever wondered, what lies should you believe are true?



Yeah, everything is true. In certain conditions, environments, cultures or restrictions anything could potentionally be percieved as a truth. Its why public relations and marketting are so easy, and why democracy isnt. But deep down I dont think it matters what others percieve as truth, cause its their choice, so who care how many potential truthts their are out there. Why does it effect you?

that second little post was better than the entire first one.

Ok, so yesterday.. I replied to this thread.. I come here today to read the responses and my reply is gone... wtf?

To just go over what i had allready said quickly...


What you want is a reflection of the forces that have acted upon you your whole life. To seek to obtain what you want is to remain shackled. Freedom is found by devoting yourself to a life of servitude to the greater good of the universe.


In order to devote yourself to a life of servitude to the greater good of the universe, dont you first have to know what is for the greater good of the universe?

Why is obtaining what you want mean you remain shackled? What if you really sit down and think about what you want not just make a descion by reaction. I decided that I want to devote my life to getting my thoughts out there through music. Why is that a desicion where I am remaining shackled? I see it as quite the opposite... For me remaing shackled would be to want that, but then do something that I actually dont want to do.


if the man ate the food because he craved it, then he was acting as an animal, as a reflex, without free will.


Even when you crave food, you are faced with a choice, you can not eat that food, get even more hungry and eventually die or you can eat that food and live plus not be hungry anymore. Why would either choice not be made out of free will?

Even if you're not educated as to what choice to make, the choice is still there, and its still up to you to decide what path you want to take, unless everything is allready written in stone, which could be the case, I'm not denying that. Although it sure doesn't seem like it.


but have you ever wondered, what lies should you believe are true? You recognize that it is possible that the answer is NOT "none."


What lies should I believe are true? If I know for a fact there lies, wouldn't it be best for me to not believe any of them? I mean after all, I know their lies, how could I even begin to believe they're true after seeing with my own eyes that they're not?

When you dont know whether something is or isn't a lie, thats when I can see a person believing it is or isn't one.

This applies even for involved religions, think about it, if christians actually somehow knew that god didn't exist, and they knew that the statement 'god exists' is just a lie flat out, do you think any of them would still actually believe it?

The thing is, we dont really know whether most things are a lie or not. You dont know whether there is or isn't a god, you dont know what that god is if there is one, you dont know what objective reality looks like, you dont know whether the universe is finite or infinite. You can only make assumptions based on what you see. Some people might jump to faith, and thats all well and good if it satisfies them, but deep down inside, they know that they dont really know and they just have faith. Unless you're really really good at self hypnosis, making yourself believe a lie is true is gonna be a challenge.


No time to edit.. sorry if this is written all fucked up ... must sleep ...

peace

i apologize if what i say has already been said, but there's a lot of long posts here.

A few things about the path to enlightenment in my opinion:

1. The act of being is perfect and complete in itself.
2. The world cannot change except through individuals changing themselves.
3. Metaphysics are relatively unimportant, because they are elemental, like the weather.
4. Enlightenment is probably not what you think it is. (myself included)

To paraphrase from a book I once read about enlightenment:

If you ask a goldfish what water is, he will say, "What is water?" This is like our situation. We live in no-thing, ignorant of it. I think that when a person finds themselves enlightened, their mind harmonizes with no-thing...and what is left to "do" is not understood by us through logical thought because we understand doing as acting upon a desire.

I don't think we will know until we "wake up." So it is less important to think about zen than it is to sit zazen.

Zen is more about now, and less about later.

I would suggest that anyone interested in buddhism should also read siddhartha by hermann hesse.

enlightened beings do not stop existing. they have will, but its pure will. they have action and its pure action. They may see the world in a different way, respond to it in a different way, but its all good. You could prolly be enlightened and still work at a dead end minimum wage job.

So after years of struggling, of meditating, of engaging in active imagination, of applying Tarot and Kabala and Alchemy to the ritual space, of tinkering with NLP, dabbling in Tantra, one could finally acheive enlightenment, find one's true inner self, see the world with eyes cleared of projection, find the bliss and happiness in the Now, give up Trying and sink into Being --

-- and still be flipping soy patties a twisted corportation is trying to pass off as beef, dressing it up in buns and vegitable matter and serving it to heart-attacks-waiting-to-happen at your neighborhood fast food joint for just below seven dollars an hour?

I'm beginning to understand what some people mean when they talk about the thin line between insanity and enlightenment.

But I seem to be stuck in ass end jobs -- and I am, in fact, currently unemployed -- and I am void of enlightenment, so I guess: sign me up.

I am simply saying two things. First, I dont think enlightment is found by struggling, and two, it is not dependant upon your worldly affairs. I think its a combination of letting go and acceptance. So, an enlightened person flipping a burger is still an enlightened being. He would approach the task in an enlightened way, see the enlightening side of it (he would notice all the things everyone else doesnt notice but have always been there), and continue to be enlightened.

I dunno. I dont think we can really appreciate what parts of you continue to exist after enlightment that were there before enlightment. But there are parts that do continue to exist, and you still exist in this world, all the things that have been in this world continue to be in this world. Your perception, awarness and state of being has just changed. So rather then walking around with a chip on your shoulder, you walk around enlightened. I dont think its a case of you becoming enlightened and then God tapping you on the shoulder and saying, "right, your done, lets go."

But of coarse the road to enlightment is an old catch 22. In a lot of ways being on the path feeds your ego and becomes a barrier. You think, "oh cool, i am almost there, just a few years of this or that. Maybe 10 years. But its so cool I am on the path." Then you think, "nope, too old, maybe in the next life." You know. So rather then it being a way to test yourself and challenge urself to the point where you lift the veil, it suddenly becomes a mix of entertainment, escapism, and an excuse. Not even buddha got it right away, but it only takes a moment to do. Whats it called, pure intent or focus? In the end buddha had to sit under a tree and say, "well, i will either become enlightened or starve to death." Dont think everyone needs to go to such extremes, but you do need to do the inner work to open yourself upto the possibility and let yourself go to the possibility. Kind of like, "if its possible, it will happen". Coz in the end your in control of it, and its upto you whether you experience it or not.

But just think about it, what if next week you were to take a step or a breath and suddenly you would become enlightened? Would you truly want that? Would you be able to accept it? I dont think a lot of people would want such a reality check. Its not like a drug, you'd be in control of it, and you'd prolly want it to stop and shut down so you can go back to the comfort of the devil you know.

I do not completely agree with your posts as they are stated above, for one, no person that just wants to give as much into life as possible, without thinking of the consequences for you, will call himself a genius...

The act of true free will is to say, "No matter what it tastes like, I'm going to eat what will make my body healthiest."

Click to expand...

Perhaps, but I don`t want to feel physically well, I want to feel mentally well, it is much more important to me, I thought it was to buddhists as well. A glass of soy-milk is not going to make me as "happy" as a big FAT cheeseburger, that`ll probably kill me in the end.(bad example, just imagine something not containing ANYTHING living, that still tastes good, oops, there is no such thing)

Wait, you won`t even survive without killing almost EVERY day, no matter if you kill plants, or animals.

Personally I think vegetarians are hypocrits, they are willing to kill plants to survive, but when it comes to something that they can visibly SEE the pain in, they won`t touch it. In my mind something is wrong with this, it reminds me of helping the poor kid down the road get a skateboard, but letting the poor kids in Africa starve, because you can`t see their pain.

I`m really sorry if I hurt anyone with this post, anyone that takes offense from this should look at it and ignore it. But ignoring someone else`s opinion, or getting mad at someone because of his opinion is probably in direct conflict with most of your thoughts.

If you want to produce as much life as possible, let it please be animal life, they`re going down, because our numbers are rising. Think about it. Maybe everything that happens in this world DOES serve a purpose, maybe it`s just a test to get upstairs in the afterlife, I don`t know. What I do know is, I`m going to enjoy THIS life to the fullest, and let nothing stand in my way to the top, even though it can be a pretty hard fall when my time is up/