Alcoholism is not a disease

You may think this is a controversial opinion, depending on your cultural or ethnic background. But I have abused alcohol before, and I can attest that alcoholism is a flawed life attitude, not a disease.

I think calling alcoholism a disease only makes the person and his nearest and dearest able to shrug off responsibility. As if this substance just came along and afflicted them, the way a flu virus does. Hooey. You CHOOSE to put alcohol or drugs in your body, whenever they get there. If you made this choice, then you take the responsibility for whatever happens as a result of intoxication. It's that simple.

Ever notice that people who are most adamant about alcoholism being a disease tend to come from families, social circles, or ethnic backgrounds riddled with alcoholism? Well, I come from a family, a social strata, AND an ethnicity all full of alcoholism, and I don't fall for that crap.

I have a friend back home who's from an ethnic background known for moderate drinking and little to no alcoholism. He explained it this way to me: In his community, if you make a drunken ass of yourself, or appear in a stupor, his people will see it as a weakness, and mock and harrass you for it. They will hold you responsible for anything you do or say while drinking. It's no excuse for doing or saying something you wouldn't dare sober. Also, if you become addicted, it's YOUR FAULT, especially for neglecting your obligations to your family and friends. People of his ethnic background, from my observation, tend to be very outspoken and value self-confidence highly, and they see anyone drinking to get up the courage to do or say something or make a move as absoultely PATHETIC.

I find alcoholism is taking the attitude that life is a burden, and that being drunk often is a natural and forgiveable way to lighten the load. Call me racist or ethnocentric if you want, but some cultures seem good at nurturing this attitude, and these are the same ones where people tend to drink like fish. However, if you stop seeing life as a painful burden, and rather as an enjoyable challenge that's in no way a problem, then there's no need to "take the pressure off", and it's easier to notice the harmful effects of being drunk often.

I quit drinking for a year, and then restarted at very moderate levels. I never drink to get drunk anymore -- booze to me is like e: it's lost its magic. In this time, I never attended an AA meeting or anything of the sort. I just dropped all my defenses and let myself feel the huge shame that ought to come with being a slobbering drunken ass in front of so many people. Then I decided it was up to me to turn this around. I didn't need to declare myself powerless over the stuff like AA encourages -- on the contrary, I needed to take control.

this is the same as the "drug addiction illness or choice thread", why dont you post it in that?

originally posted by MyDoorsAreOpen

I didn't need to declare myself powerless over the stuff like AA encourages -- on the contrary, I needed to take control.

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I 100% agree with this statement. This to me is the reason why AA/NA are fucked. It is your choice. The other thing that gets me is the put your faith in 'a higher power.' I'm sorry but fuck that shit, I prefer to put my faith in something that I can see and to take action and take control over my circumstances.

This is my personal opinion only. AA/NA have done some fantastic things for a lot of people and they will continue to do some good work. I just completely disagree with their principles.

And being a moderate alcoholic myself I do understand exactly where you are coming from with this post MyDoorsAreOpen.

If you would prefer we can merge this thread with the "drug addiction illness or choice thread" but I think it can still work as a stand alone thread about alcoholism.

CB

Sorry didn't notice that other thread. Moderators, feel free to move this post.

One more thought:
From what I hear, the Japanese chapters of AA take a very different approach toward getting drinkers into the right groove. They're a very here-and-now, practical people, so appeals to a higher power aren't their thing. Instead, the sponsor will draw the alcoholic's attention to all the people he has hurt, all the obligations he has neglected, all the bridges he has burned, and all the opportunities he has missed, as a result of drinking. Then he'll hint something along the lines of "Aren't those bonds with other people the thing that gives life meaning? Would you really want to trade all that for a few hours of muddled false paradise?"

Much more practical and mature than the Western approach, IMHO.

You're wrong about AA in Japan. I've been to meetings in Tokyo and the principles are exactly the same as they are everywhere else in the world. There are changes in format, cultural influences, and local personality -- but AA everywhere is based on the 12 Steps and the book "Alcoholics Anonymous."

I'm probably posting that because my inner alcoholic is offended by your post...but I can't argue your opinion, only correct you on a fact.

GRD

AA is a totally fucked up piece of shit organization - but that doesn't mean alcoholism isn't a disease. It is obviously a matter of definition - but I think in every way that matters it is clearly a mental disease.

--- G.

Oh, and if it was as simple as "changing your attitude" - everyone would be happy as pigs in shit - the world doesn't work like that.

--- G.

I didn't mean to sound trite, Morrison. Changing your attitude has to conincide with lifestyle changes, changes in sources of soul nourishment, and lots of support from family and friends. But it's the beginning of any real solution to a problematic way of engaging the world around you, which is what alcoholism essentially is.

There's going to be almost as many opinions on this subject as there are people on Bluelight! Websters defines a disease as "a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning." That's a pretty broad definition.

Most people think of disease as being a physical condition, both in terms of its cause, symptoms and consequences... excluding mental or behavior disorders. But there are biological factors that contribute to many mental disorders, including alcoholism and addiction.

I think there's a big difference between people who let their drinking get out of hand, even if they're like that all their lives, and the alcoholic who will drink daily for many years, frequently getting physically sick, losing their family and friends, and often dying from it. The obsession to drink for these people truly is beyond their control. It's much more than simply lacking the willpower to stop drinking. Only an alcoholic can really understand this. That's no excuse for all the bad things they do. It doesn't mean they shouldn't still be held responsible and accountable for their actions. It just means they need some serious help to get better.

MyDoorsAreOpen said:

I didn't mean to sound trite, Morrison. Changing your attitude has to conincide with lifestyle changes, changes in sources of soul nourishment, and lots of support from family and friends. But it's the beginning of any real solution to a problematic way of engaging the world around you, which is what alcoholism essentially is.

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What you describe is a way of combating mental illness - whether it is alcoholism or another form of mental disorder is not all that important.

Just because something can be cured doesn't mean it's not a mental disease...

--- G.

"The obsession to drink for these people truly is beyond their control. It's much more than simply lacking the willpower to stop drinking. Only an alcoholic can really understand this."

uhm, i don't understand that.. if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck.. it it drinks like an alcoholic, does all the shitty things an alcoholic does and craves alcohol like an alcoholic, it probably is an alcolhic..

the reasoning above really diminishes the accomplishment of people who, through tremendous effort, are able to take back control of their lives.. if we're treating it as a disease anyways, that's like saying people who go into complete remission with cancer were never sick in the first place.. the fact is: the alcoholic who can't wrestle the reins back from their addiction has decided that their addiction is more important than anything they sacrifice for it... period.

the fact is: the alcoholic who can't wrestle the reins back from their addiction has decided that their addiction is more important than anything they sacrifice for it... period.

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And now you are parroting back the line that 'They can stop anytime they want to.' Well, as many will tell you addiction is a MENTAL disease, it changes the way people think.

I feel that some people in this thread are basing their posts completely on personal opinion/expierience based on a very small number of 'alcoholics.' Later today I will post several empirical studies of LARGE SCALE populations that show statistically signifigant findings regarding EtOHism and the disease model.

Only an alcoholic can really understand this.

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Or a junkie, or a crack head. If you've never been there you cant understand it because you haven't been there.

uhm, i don't understand that.. it really diminishes the accomplishment of people who, through tremendous effort, are able to take back control of their lives.. if we're treating it as a disease anyways, that's like saying people who go into complete remission with cancer were never sick in the first place..

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I'm a little confused by this, could you please explain this a little more, how is this like saying someone with cancer never had it?

It's all very simple and clearcut untill you actually experience it.

--- G.

uhm.. i have actually experienced it! jeez.. read my post in the aa thread: search by "powerlessness." just because something isn't done often doesn't mean it can't be done.

12 step models first tell you you have a disease then tell you it can't be cured, and if you do cure it, you never had the disease in the first place. it's completely contradictory... what's not to understand?

^^Sorry, I didn't realize we were talking about the 12 step model, I thought we were talking about EtOHism as a disease based on the AMA and APA empirical studies and disease definitons.

When taken in the context of 12 step programs I understand your posistion.

Fuck the 12 step program - fuck it to hell. I wouldn't spit on that piece of religious dogmatic shit if I had to expell strychnine from my mouth.

This has fuck-all to do with those prats - just because I agree with them on one word doesn't make me one of them. In fact I am going to go drown my sorrows right now.

Just because you realized some people you knew are brainwashed morons doesn't mean everything they ever told you is a lie - in fact I am pretty sure most of them would tell you that 1+1 is in fact 2, and so would most Nazis. Being wrong, and being an idiot, doesn't mean everything you ever said can be automatically discredited.

Otherwise there would be no point in me posting any more

--- G.

My names Goose and I am an alcoholic. You might choose or not choose to use alcohol... but take it to far and the alcohol starts choosing for you. It chooses not only to drink but it also chooses other bad decisions in your life (take the day off work, fuck over this person, don't pay that bill). You think your in control you can handle your shit but now your heads clouded by the substance.

Your right it's not a disease like the flu, it's not a virus. It is a disease as in a mental condition. Right now because of my medical condition I fear a drink might seriously hurt me physically and mentally but I see people drinking or I see a beer sitting there and I want it. Just a taste. That taste could hurt me though... Tell me that very strong urge isn't from a mental condition I created with alcohol.... a disease.

About AA. AA is there to remind us on a daily basis why not to have that drink. You go there you hang out with your "peers" you remind yourself and others why your not going to have a drink today. I've only been sober for 38 days now, I say only but it's a miracle for me. I'll tell you one thing that I've taken from AA and I think is really cool that you might not realize.... You can't control a situation or other people all you can control is your reaction. That's what life is cause and effect.

Just my opinion on things

so your disease used to go out, pick something to drink, show its id, bring it home, pry your mouth open and force liquor down your throat? wow, that's a pretty powerful sickness..

i do believe a strong, compulsive desire to drink can be a sign of a genetic/physical/mental illness.. the actual act of following through on that desire, however, is a conscious decision.. drinking is a symptom, not the disease.. i mean, really, if you were transported to a society that had no access to alcohol, you might still have that particular desire or "disease," but the major symptom of alcoholism (drinking), would be gone, yes?

dyscotopia said:

so your disease used to go out, pick something to drink, show its id, bring it home, pry your mouth open and force liquor down your throat? wow, that's a pretty powerful sickness..

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Jesus fucking Christ, are you serious??? Mental illness doesn't dictate behaviour now?! Ever heard of kleptomania? Ever heard of OCD? Ever heard of mental illness in general - in fact?


Mentally ill people do FUCKED UP things - and that can include drinking too much

Your argument assumes that basically psychiatrists made up the whole idea of being mentally ill to help people rationalize their bad choices. BULLSHIT.

Now, I realize you mentioned mental disease in your reply, but in fact you do not seem to grasp the reality of what that means. As a person suffering from more than one mental ailment, I can assure you that things are anything but clearcut inside the myst of madness. Why the hell SHOULD a dangerously unstable person stop drinking, for one thing?

We know he should, but to assume that person has the mental capacity to see that for himself is not only naive but heartless and judgmental.

--- G.