YES!!! Reckitt loses U.S. bid to block generic heroin addict drug

[gh0stmAn]

So does this just basically mean that Suboxone (bupe) treatment will be more available or less available to people that want/need it?

 

[DMennace]

I would like other's opinions on the new generic bupe. First off, everything here is my own experience, (I am not a doctor, nor claim to know everything there is to know about bupe/opiates/opioids, though I do have extensive knowledge on all of these, so please, do not use anything I say as medical advice, anything is at your own risk), This is my first hand experience with it. I am new to blue light as a member, but have read a lot of stuff on bluelight for years now and decided it was time for me to start commenting and what not, I will start off with this. I am an opiate/opioid addict, and have been for 17 years. I am 33 years old, have been through every opiate/opioid that there is to be addicted from Tylenol 3's to Heroin and everything in between. What finally made me go on full time suboxone to get clean was fentanyl/heroin addiction. I will not say how much I was using, but I will say it was enough daily to probably kill 3 horses or so, no lie. But I have been on and off of the suboxone ride since 2007, started them back when they still had the 8mg stop sign pills. Then because of RB trying to figure out another way of making it so they could get all the profits for another 7 years they came out with the strip and made a new patent, which was a load of crap, and the FDA knew this and made it legal for 2 or 3 companies to now start producing the generic pill. I tried the ones that were the orange ones that said AN 144 I believe, or something close to 144, I can not remember for sure. Anyways, I had read a lot on here and other places that most people that had this specific orange an 144 said they were junk, they were right. It seems as if they are only about half the strength of what it should be because I had to also double my dosage to feel the same effect as many other people have also stated. Now I don't know if this is just me or not, because i have read also from others that the new film seems much different then the old stop sign sub's. The old stop signs, I would take 16mg a day, 2 of the 8mg pills under my tongue like you are supposed to take them, and they worked fantastic. They made me feel good, and stopped all of the cravings. Now the film, which I have been on and off of since they came out in 2010 or 2011, I take the same amount, 2 8mg strips, and yes, you are not sick, and you feel ok, but I still have bad cravings of wanting to get high, they do not stop the cravings for me like they used to when they were in pill form. I have tried every route of administration that there is, (and I do not suggest, or condone for anyone to take them as prescribed) and when it comes down to it, in the end, under the tongue is the best way to do them, like they are supposed to be taken. I have tried IV, IM, snorting, and the only benefit to any of these methods is that you can take much less to get the same effect as sublingual, because sublingual only has a 32% - 40% bio-availability rate, where-as IM/IV has 100%. So when I didn't have insurance, I would do them IM... there is no point in IVing them, because you do not get a rush of any kind and it still takes about an hour to feel the effect. So I only recommend the IM route if you do not have insurance, and you have a hard time coming up with the money to get your subs. Doing 16mg a day sublingual, I was able to do only 6mg a day IM which really made them last a lot longer, but now that I have insurance, I do them sublingual like your supposed to. But anyways, has anyone else noticed that these orange generic round bupe's are junk also? From what I see and read everywhere it's not just me, and also what are your opinions about the films, and the craving issue? Oh also, I guess I should say this, I did not become an addict just because I was looking for a way to have fun or party or peer pressure, etc. I was a totally straight edge kid growing up, came from a great family, etc. etc. I never touched anything until I was 16 1/2 years old, and I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. From then on, its been pure hell. If I would of known back then, in 1996, when the doctor gave me my first script for vicoden's, what it was going to lead to, I would have never EVER touched them in the first place. Of course they tell you, oh take this it will make the pain better, but they fail to tell you how addictive it is, or how fast your tolerance to pain meds goes up, and so on... now, 17 years later, and 10's of thousands of dollars later, I have nothing to show for all of that except for me being here "clean" on suboxone, which still really isn't "clean" because it is still a drug of the opioid form in a way, and I also lost my brother due to a heroin overdose on Christmas Eve morning of 2011... that was probably the worst day of my life and my bottom, and since then, I have struggled to only stay on subs. I always used to have friends who would lose a parent, or someone very close to them due to this addiction, and I always thought to myself, geez, if something like that were ever to happen to me, I would never do this crap ever again.... I could not understand how people could continue to go on using the substance that killed someone so close to them, then, after my brother died from the heroin O/D, I managed to stay clean from that day until April 2, 2012, only because I was in jail on unpaid fines, and a petty misdemeanor charge I had to do 120 days for, so I got out of jail thinking cool, I have 4 months clean under my belt, I can surely kick it all now and never go back. That lasted a whole day and a half. I went and only took 4 ultrams... ULTRAM mind you... and I am one of the few people that tramadol turns into morphine when your body converts it... so needless to say I ended up high as ever which sounds crazy but true... then from that day on, it was about 7 months of fentanyl and heroin hell. I knew if I didn't stop and get on suboxone and stay on it that my mom would end up finding me dead, just like she did my brother, and I can't put her through losing another one of her kids from this crap. My brother was only 28, and had only been shooting heroin for 67 days after he had started before he died from it, I should add he also took 6 klonopins that morning also, but either way, the autopsy results said that the stuff he got that night/morning was about 3 or 4 times stronger then what he was used to, because they had found a syringe next to him with another shot in it and analyzed it and it was really strong H so they say, either way, he did enough to kill him. I had started bangin in 2007, and the only reason I am still alive is I was always very careful and always did a tester amount first to determine how strong it was, because I knew you could always go up, but you cant come back down, so I am glad that I at least had enough sense to do that, because most people I know will go get a big old pile of it and do it all in one shot and I have had to save a couple friends from OD, that crap is crazy, I have never understood how people could like the feeling of not being able to talk, or function or anything after doing a shot, I guess I will never understand that because H has the opposite effect on me, on me it acts as an upper, not a downer, if it was a downer, I would of never got hooked on it because I hate stuff that downs me, but all in all I have learned this, its all evil. I tried methadone, got cut off at 80mg a day and that was the WORST hell of my life for 3 weeks straight I was puking and sitting on the toilet shitting while pukin in the bath tub at the same time, felt like spiders were crawling under my skin, insomnia, the whole 9 yards and another 9 yards on top of that.. it was HORRIBLE!! My advice to anyone that is thinking about methadone... DON'T DO IT, it is 100x worse to get off of then the 3 to 10 days of WD's from heroin, and your much better off just going through the H withdrawal in the first place. To bad I had to find out and learn this the hardest way of all, going through it Suboxone is no better to get off of really, it is not nearly as bad as getting cut off of methadone, but its still bad. You don't have the puking, but still have the diarrhea, spider's crawling under your skin (creepie crawlie) feeling, insomnia, wishing you would die feeling for a month or so. I got cut off of subs at 16mg a day when I went to jail on a public intox. charge back in 2009 in PA, was in there for 30 days, and that was the worst 30 days of my life, literally, I had never ever WD'd from a drug before that made me suicidal, and coming off of subs in jail, from 16 - 24mg a day SUCKED to say the very least... and that was with them giving me 2 tylenol 3s a day for the wd's, because in PA they ask you if you need to be detoxed from anything, and if you tell them opiates, etc. and they give you tylenol 3's for 2 weeks and taper it down, or benzo's, etc. But anyways, coming off of subs now has been the worst experience of my life. It almost seems impossible, because I also have the severe pain issue with the crohn's, which I need 14in of my large intestine removed, and the doctors don't want to do it yet because once you cut out the infected portion, with Crohn's, it just comes back and infects a new portion of your bowel's, big mess there. So I always have to have something for pain and I can't take any NSAIDS, because they cause the ulcers to flair up, and break open, and bleed, which I might add, I have had 18 blood transfusions due to Crohn's and blood loss, with blood counts as low as 5.2 - 6.8... every time I have had to have a transfusion, I have needed at least 6 units of blood, one time I needed 12 units total because the bleeding would not stop, the 5.8 blood count, they said I had lost almost 2/3 of my blood and they could not figure out how I still managed to walk into the hospital.. lol. I have this huge fear of passing out I guess, so I refuse to let myself pass out, because it is very hard to even walk 10 steps without almost blacking out when that happens to me. But being that I always have to have something for pain, I am stuck on the subs, because regardless of what you hear people say, yes, subs do help with pain!!! Which is a good thing, they work very well for pain in my opinion, and other people I know also say they work great for their pain, people just try to say it doesn't work because they want the hard drugs that get you high.. such a shame. Now I won't say that I feel great all the time, because I don't. I still go through phases of depression that sometimes last 10 days to 2 weeks at a time, but this is still a lot better then the hell I was living in, wondering where I was gonna get my next fix, get money for my next fix, etc. But I think the prices these suboxone doctors are charging should be against the law. Where I am from, it is generally $300.00 for the first visit and $250.00 a month.. needless to say I drive about 30 miles for my sub doc because he was only $220.00 for the first month and $170.00 a month or $85.00 every 2 weeks! Which is great because I can't work because of the Crohn's and I just make ends meet fixing computers for friends etc and by running ads on CL, etc. and I manage to make enough every month to go to my sub doc. But a doc by me just got busted for charging people the monthly visit, and billing it to their insurance, 2nd time he got caught doing this, needless to say he is out of business now.. which is good. I used to go to this doctor, and when I told him that I needed a cheaper way, trying to get him to write the generic suboxone, because the films cost an avg of $12.00 where I'm at, he said no, I will only write the film, I do not trust the generics, he actually said this to me and I quote "you came up with money everyday to get heroin, so this shouldn't be a problem" and I said, umm yea ok man, the reason I got on subs is because I did not want to do the stuff I was doing to score money for dope.. its BULLSHIT. What do you people think about these sub doc's? I think they should not be allowed to charge more then a regular office visit each time... instead, like the doc I am going to now, which i can tell he is crooked also because he only does his suboxone patients on sunday's and wednesday's and in a different office then his normal office. So he is taking cash only, under the table, in a separate office all under the table, 170.00 per person each month times 100 patients, he is getting rich off us addicts, that is wrong, suboxone is supposed to be here to help us, which it does, but I don't think these doctors should be in it to get rich. GREED now a days is awful. Ok I guess I am done for now, I look forward to hearing people's responses to some of the things I have mentioned and what not. I have a lot of experience with suboxone, and all opiates/opioids, like I said, so if anyone does have any questions, feel free to ask me.

 

[cj]

^^^^No one is going to read that. Paragraphs are your friend

 

[dopemegently]

Pricing conversation bans aside, what difference in price would there be between generic and branded suboxone? Like, in percentages?
Over here, generic paracetemol is on average 10% the price of branded. (Big pharma are grasping bastards, and I really mean that).

Also, I think the whole suboxone thing is shady as fuck; it's obviously a clever marketing gimmick to add perceived value in the eyes of drug treatment providers, but maybe there's something more going on....maybe the patent for subutex, sorry, I meant bubrenorphine, was running out, so they invented suboxone to prolong their patents? (Does suboxone cost more than subutex btw?)

 

[manboychef]

Over one hundred percent difference in Florida. Ask to be switched to subutex. Its a very small fast dissolving pill.

 

[dopemegently]

Over here, we have no choice in the matter-we have to have suboxone, with its disgusting fake-citrus taste, and it's always the branded stuff; big pharma have a monopoly on buprenorphine here, and this pisses me off big time, because imho suboxone is inferior in its effects to subutex, and no, I don't want to shoot it up (it's pretty offensive to assume that every single bupe user wants to inject bupe); the "harm minimisation" argument for suboxone is nothing more than a clever marketing ploy...

It's interesting that the price difference between 'xone and 'tex is so massive; the consumer has to pay a huge mark-up for a product that's arguably inferior. But then, this is big pharma we're talking about. And they say drug dealers ruthlessly exploit addicts with grossly over-priced drugs...I find that fucking ironic.

 

[manboychef]

Yeah I've used both. I prefer subutex. It is not so nasty. I used to throw up half an hour after I toll Suboxone. I don't understand shooting subutex. All it does is minimise the amount you need and at less than half the price of a strip I'd rather have veins than a few dollars.. Privitised healthcare is about choice. I demanded subutex because I don't make much money and my job doesn't offer healthcare that is worth much. I could no longer adore the citrus hell the strips afforded me.

 

[ExOpiate=Coper]

Generic sub pills suck! Half the strength, don't dissolve won't break. I would use a pill grinder and then out that under my tongue. Strips are easier to dose I think. But honestly I can't imagine anyone taking more than 2-4 Mg's at a time for at least 24 hrs. I go 4 Mg's then down to 1mg then 1mg then depending on how I feel I might do 2mg but I don't want to be on sub for longer than 3-4 months. I try to stay right on the edge of withdrawals because I don't want to deal with the sub withdrawals from long term high dosage usage.

Let me say one thing to whomever is using subs as a temporary bridge in between saving for your DOC or just no access to it... I used to barely mess with 10/325 vicodins... 3-6 a day no more than 2 at a time. Buddy gave me some subs, I used it for a week then wanted my vicodins... Had to take 12-15 of them! And honestly since the first sub usage my tolerance to any opiate is 3-4 times higher. If I could do a single thing over it would be once you start subs don't go back. It's a quick downward spiral.... Vic's, OC's, opanas, then the big H....all in about 5 months. But after 2 months on H I realized that this can't be my life... I have more people that would hook me up with opiates than would come by for dinner.... Sad. But that time has past.... Subs only for me... Hopefully only in 2013. I want 2014 to be crutch free. Best wishes to you all.

 

[cashfl0w_d0nkey]

Furthermore, the FDA said in its letter that it had received comments asserting that Reckitt's petition was an anti-competitive practice, and that it would refer the company to the Federal Trade Commission.

It's about time RB was stopped. I understand allowing a company to recoup its R&D through patent protection, but when it is a heavily regulated market like ORT that is being entered, and the legal environment of the field is changed to accommodate the release of the product, patents need to be applied differently. It doesn't make sense to make laws governing the prescribing standards for something like buprenorphine ORT and simultaneously prevent competition in the field. Doing that creates a monopoly, and allows companies like RB to leech ridiculous sums of money from society.

 

[RedRum OG]

ugh, suboxone is so expensive, thank god. if you didnt have insurance, youd be better off having a dope habit for how much that shit costs.

suboxone itself is a dumb idea, subutex is the exact same thing, but they scammed all these doctors into thinking naloxone actually does something

seriously, why are so many "professionals" convinced that naloxone will give you precips ONLY if you IV it? and regardless if you have other opiates in yoour system? makes no sense.

 

[BlueHues]

^Naloxone will give you PWs "only if you IV it". The problem is, buprenorphine itself is what gives you the precipitated withdrawals and it has a higher binding affinity than naloxone does anyway. There's little to no difference between Suboxone and Subutex regardless of how it's taken IME.