• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist | cdin | Lil'LinaptkSix

Relapse Worried about relapsing.

I've never been to NA. Don't know if it exists around here. I tried going to AA for a while but I couldn't stand it. Too much God shit and too much self pity. It didn't help me.

You probably won't like NA either then. I mean, as I recall NA swaps out God for "higher power" in some places in the written steps and traditions, and you might make the argument NA is somewhat less judgemental... Maybe.

Other than that they're almost identical.

Only in NA you usually get keychains instead of chips, for some reason... :p
 
You probably won't like NA either then. I mean, as I recall NA swaps out God for "higher power" in some places in the written steps and traditions, and you might make the argument NA is somewhat less judgemental... Maybe.

Other than that they're almost identical.

Only in NA you usually get keychains instead of chips, for some reason... :p

Nobody told me you get chips in AA. Do you get gravy as well? 😜
 
Nobody told me you get chips in AA. Do you get gravy as well? 😜

Your reference to British English offends me. I mentally imagine all bluelighters speaking in my own, correct, American accent. Breaking that illusion is not appreciated. :D

But I suppose you could always bring Gravy with you? <3
 
dalpat077 said:
I could go out to dinner nine times and drink bottled water (well a soda anyway) and there'd be no problem and all would be good with the world. But let me get fucked the tenth time and that is what will be remembered.

Yeah that captures it really well. That's what's frustrating me recently. I feel like it wouldn't matter if I did two years. The focus is always on when I fuck up, not when I do something right.
 
It can be arranged... :ROFLMAO:

And you too stop beating yourself up and being so negative! Your political views aside: I'd be willing to bet a fairly large chunk of money that you have many redeeming factors and things to be proud of

I wouldn't recommend betting very highly on that.
 
It can be arranged... :ROFLMAO:

And you too stop beating yourself up and being so negative! Your political views aside: I'd be willing to bet a fairly large chunk of money that you have many redeeming factors and things to be proud of (and no matter what's gone down in the past and no matter the current situation whatever it may be). ❤️

And for what it's worth let me tell you something (not just you):

Bear in mind that addiction, or the propensity to become addicted, to something is something you're born with. It's the one thing that not even the best scientific research in the world will convince me otherwise. Believe me when I tell you that I'm living proof of this. None of us asked for this shit. And the mere fact that I was lucky enough to stop my shit years ago changes nothing. And it's no longer something I'm ashamed of nor try to hide. There will always be a monkey on my shoulder and it's as simple as that. And that, in and of itself, doesn't make me, you, or anybody else any less of a human being.

Fortunately science agrees with you. They've identified a lot of genetic markers for addiction, including several that will be dormant and not affect your brain chemistry unless they're "turned on" by environmental factors, with the main factor identified being stress. So two genetically identical people could go through life, and if one has a relatively easy, privileged life then they will go to their grave carrying the genes for addiction whilst being able to drink & take drugs without a problem, whilst the other one if they live a life with hardship or stress than they will quickly find themselves addicted to their substance of choice. It's really interesting and I think it's the future of treating addiction, though we are not at personalised genomic medicine yet and I imagine addiction is such a complex issue that it will be a long time till we can get that sophisticated level of treatment.

Unfortunately till then our culture informs us that the solution is rooted in religious morality through AA/NA. It's dismal success rate aside, if you're someone like me or from the sounds of it @birdup.snaildown who doesn't have religious tendencies then you are going to struggle to accept AA dogma. I would HIGHLY recommend Smart Recovery. In my opinion it can't replace AA quick enough, and it's only through what I've learnt at SMART that I've made it this week. It is evidence-based and uses psychological techniques drawn from the latest science on addiction rather than religious dogma and teaches you techniques to manage your thoughts & emotions and avoid using. I honestly can't sing its praises enough!

@birdup.snaildown you are in the fortunate position of being currently sober. It may not feel like a blessing if you're going through a rough time, but I promise you if you relapse a point will come when you will be looking back at this sobriety and wishing you were back here! Consider that next time you are tempted! :)
 
I really hate NA/AA after being forcibly made to participate as a teenager and then forced again as part of rehab a few times (is there any other rehab model?). However, I have to admit that each time I’ve broken a serious addiction AA/NA has been a really good circuit breaker for my druggie lifestyle and over indulgence. Sometimes just one meeting was enough to kickstart a successful recovery, once it was 90 meetings in 90 days. So I think it valuable even if you don’t adopt it as your all consuming lifestyle as you are supposed to.
 
Hey, I can totally relate to your life situation. Kids, life sit. etc. And life is just much easier with some pills to start off the day.

Bet jeez, 11 weeks. Shit man be the worst is over.
Im in some kind of quick taper right now from over 10+ years of oxy, sub, tramadol, codeine, morphine you name it. Have taken everything that I got my hands on.
In over 10 years I havent been sober a single day, no one have noticed ever. Got a job, kids everything.

Been on the edge of running out turning to benzos on the mean time.

Now I feel the same way you do; the kids, getting life in order etc, without the motivation kick from opiates. Also without anyone knowing.

But I've just started. Been bouncing between sub(4mg) and oxy(100+) last month and are down to 30mg now, jumped from 60-70 three days ago and the wd are hell.

The thought of relapse is there all the time. I don't know how many times I've just stared at the bottle - "just a couple more to give me some relief today, I'll continue as planned tomorrow".
Cannot even imagine the PAWS after 10 years, hopefully I just stare at the bottle and leave it.

So if you've gotten 11 weeks, hell yeah. At the same time I'm terrified myself if I even get there this time. The relapse...

But keep it up and just look forward. Everyday counts.
 
Very nice post (your posts usually are i.e. at least the ones that I've read).

You probably know about this but I'm sure some don't (I know I didn't until just recently). There's a field of study called Pharmacogenomics. Obviously I'm no expert but I think I get the gist of it anyway. Maybe a certain member could chime in here, if she's in the mood, and let us all know where it's currently at. Doesn't appear to have much with treating addiction on the one hand. On the other hand: could be that targeted and individualized treatments would go a long way to avoiding drug dependency for the simple reason that such treatment is indeed targeted and individualized as opposed to a type of one size fits all treatment for various conditions e.g. "so you have pain, no problem, here's some Fentanyl" (type of thing).


I also find myself wondering about nano technology when it comes to treatments (but have not done any research on the topic) (but somewhere did hear that they were conducting trials with nano technology as it pertains to treating cancer e.g. injecting "whatever" that directly targets and destroys cancer cells) (something like that anyway).

But I'm not seeing the correlation between any of this an addiction per se. But as noted: I'm no expert on any of this i.e. I just wing up and pick up stuff here and there that captures my interest.

Thanks. Yeah, pharmacogenomics is focused on drug metabolism, and the field of genetics will have to come a long, long way before anything like personalized addiction treatment based on your genetic make-up is standard or even existing at all.

I also find myself idly wondering about future treatments. I am recovery-oriented at the moment, but I've spent a lot of time wondering about the designer drugs of the future. The current method of making so-called "designer" drugs is just taking an existing compound, changing a molecule, checking if that's still biologically active, and then letting the users be the guinea pigs for experimentation. As drug discovery gets more sophisticated and if perhaps the draconian, puritanical restrictions on legitimate pharmaceutical companies making drugs to be taken for pleasure are lifted then the future could hold some really incredible drugs. With the way our culture is at the moment it isn't likely - there is no non-moralistic reason why normal people shouldn't be able to buy medication that's just a mood-brightener, even if you're not suffering from depression, yet the very idea of normal people taking drugs that aren't on the arbitrary list of approved substances is still taboo.

How long did you say you've been clean??
 
Hey.

I actually typed one hell of a long post yesterday morning in response to your previous post but decided to delete most of it (it wasn't flowing nicely and I kept getting interrupted for shit). If you have email notifications turned on you may have received a copy. If not: then just in case lemme try again.

As for being clean. Cocaine and Crack, ten year career, ended 1995 or thereabouts. Alprazolam, four year career (in fairness not totally to blame and can honestly say not mostly used for recreation i.e. overzealous prescription by my GP until we got to 12mg daily), ended 2010. Alcohol, always been around since like 1980, for recreational purposes obviously but not alcoholic i.e. mainly too many long business lunches and dinners and parties and a lot of binge drinking sessions, gave it up for fun (being facetious) beginning of last year. That's it really. Never been into anything else. Started 1mg - 2mg Alprazolam again most days (mainly at night) in April of this year (to date) in a crass attempt to keep my head together because of the havoc this fucking COVID caused in my life (but thinking it's time now to maybe give it up as a bad job as it's served its purpose). And the occasional Zopiclone at night. So I guess it depends on how broad your definition of the word "clean" is. :ROFLMAO: I guess my definition of "clean" would lead me to say "clean" for ten years. In those ten years: scored 1g of powder which was a waste of time and money. Scored 1 rock. Same thing. And about a six week stint on Tramadol ER last year (100mg per day) (due to sad circumstances).

The thread got me to thinking about something though (and mostly what my disjointed post of yesterday morning was about). As you noted: addiction is a complex issue. But this thread and my posting on it made me think of something. What's the difference between habit and addiction and dependence? At first I thought it was a dumb question. But if I look at my history of abuse as detailed: I've never craved anything ever. Crack obviously led to drug seeking behavior (chasing) during a binge session. But once a session was over: nothing. Other than of course looking forward to the next session (psychological). Same with powder. Same with alcohol. Benzodiazepine dependence was another story of course but not something I realized was happening until it was already a problem. And the most difficult part, after having tapered off after discovering that there was a problem, was giving up that last little sliver (was cutting pills to taper and toward the end was taking mere crumbs really i.e. at that point psychological only). Which by the way is the reason that whenever asked about this in the last few months I always tell people that if you're serious about getting off of them then calculate what you need to taper and toss the rest (because as long as they're in the house you'll never stop taking them). Dunno. Just got to wondering about all of this. But then again: fortunately I've never been attracted to opioids. And from what I gather: therein lies the difference.

Also found myself wondering if there's also not additional personality traits that all those that have the propensity to get addicted to things (and as we know: addiction isn't limited to substance abuse) e.g. depression, anxiety, being OCD about some things, you know what I'm saying. Now how much of the aforementioned can ALSO be attributed to genes: I know not. Would be an interesting study (if some have not already been done).

But the above really is why I was saying in my previous post that it's a monkey that'll always be on my shoulder and it is what it is. I mean I know I'm not capable of having a beer or two for the fun of it. Once I start: it's a bottle (or two or three) of spirits or nothing. Same during my Cocaine and Crack career. Either piles of the shit in a session or nothing. After all these years: cannot say I'm even remotely interested in going down a Cocaine route again i.e. too old and too many things have changed and a different mindset. Never used alone though and never just for the sake of it either. Only thing I do know is that it took a long time and a lot of changes to keep away from the shit. Had to eventually cut a few people out of my life because they were less than supportive of my resolve and it caused a lot of shit (they continued to use and use me because I was getting deliveries so used my spot to score and carry on in spite of knowing I'd had enough and was done). Had to avoid certain places too for a long while. And had to watch myself very carefully for a good long while when drinking so as to not start my shit again. Having said all of that: on the one hand I'm confident that if somebody used in front of me now and after all of this time I now wouldn't bat an eyelid. But on the other hand: knowing who I am it may just be a question of being in the wrong place at the wrong time and in the wrong mood and who knows. Hence my "monkey on my shoulder" comment in my previous post. Must admit: I always wondered, even felt bad maybe, for the longest while throughout all of this i.e. couldn't understand how come everyone else could go out to lunch (as an example) and have a glass of wine or two and that was that. My answer eventually came from the most unlikely of sources i.e. an interview with Ozzy Osbourne in a documentary made about him some many years ago. Not quoting him directly but the gist of it was that he said he was born an addict, never drank to be social, never shot Demerol to be social, he did it to get fucked up. Was a kind of light bulb moment for me really. No longer disliked myself after that. And oddly enough years later science took an interest in this and examined his genes and, well, the rest is history (I know I've posted this before but just in case it was missed here it is again and for sure backs up the genetic theory) (and this was a while ago so with advances in genetics pretty sure they'd discover even more):


Some interesting stuff in the article (and I've verified it using other sources i.e. it's not some fake news shit that didn't happen) if you read the whole article.

Of course there's an inherent danger in all of this (and in what I've posted). Without enough resolve: it could all be twisted and used as an excuse and as a justification to continue using (whatever your drug or substance abuse preference). That's the proverbial elephant in the room with all of this. Just something to be aware of I reckon.

As for designer drugs of the future:

I have a theory and which I posted about somewhere else around here some time ago and which oddly enough didn't receive the negative responses that I was expecting. With the current usual suspects (drugs) and what's being done to them, so far as I can tell from these forums, and based on personal experience even back in my day, would it be that far of a stretch to believe that at some point in time users will become so sick and tired of being ripped off and using unknown and harmful substances that all will revert back to natural substances? As I noted previously: this phenomenon saved my bacon anyway. And for the longest time, and in spite of not being a user, I've been a firm proponent of legalization of all substances. But I have to admit that after being a member here for a few months and thinking about things: I'm not so sure that it's such a good idea anymore. In theory it's a wonderful idea i.e. legalize, supply pure product under licence, use profits for rehab. centers and counselling, housing, and whatever else. But how is that going to stop the same thing happening as is happening now? As an example: what's to stop some lowlife dealer buying legit Cocaine, cutting it with fuck knows what, and reselling? Back to square one not? What about somebody like me? Am I sure that I wouldn't pop down to the local pharmacy knowing I could score an uncut gram? Just because I can? What about when it comes to drugs where the propensity to become physically dependent is high (I don't consider Cocaine as being such but that's just me)? Dunno. Just throwing out random thoughts here (and this from somebody that not too long ago was crowing from the treetops about legalization e.g. in the UK). I hear that it's working out nice in Portugal and Spain? But cannot help but wonder how many people in those countries are using now who would otherwise never have used or become addicts? Questioning my original stance on this type of thing now. Probably solves a lot of problems especially for those who are (were) addicts. But has it caused new problems? I don't know. Would it be fair to say that if somebody was going to use they'd use anyway and in the absence of legalization they'd make their own plan anyway? Are we not just talking about the lesser of two evils here? Dunno. Just thinking and/or typing out aloud I guess. And which I think I've done more than enough of in this post! :)

Anyway. There's my thesis for the day! Pretty sure none of the above is on topic nor of any help to the OP. Apologies.

Congratulations on the (relative) sobriety! I would highly recommend that you follow through on quitting the benzos again. As you know & have undoubtedly experienced, it will only get more difficult to kick the longer you're on them, and since benzo withdrawal can be insanely protracted without the benefit of opiate withdrawal's relatively short window of withdrawal the sooner you take the plunge and come off them the better. I imagine that if you've been taking the same dose daily then by now you aren't actually getting any real relief from them, right? If anything they will just be stopping the early mild withdrawal from your last dose whilst not doing anything to touch your actual overall anxiety levels.

In terms of the difference between habit, dependence & addiction, I think that there are a couple of easy distinctions that are pretty objective. Physical dependence itself is easy to define - you are physically dependent on a substance when you get distinct withdrawal symptoms when you stop taking the substance. Addiction is also pretty well defined - the neatest & most concise definition I've seen that's also broad enough to include all manner of addictions, including behavioral rather than substance-based, is that you are addicted to something when you continue to repeat an action, whether that be taking a substance or some other behavior, despite the negative repercussions. I think it gets a little trickier trying to tease out what exactly constitutes a habit vs an addiction or when we get into semantics like a craving vs an urge - these I think become more matters of opinion about what the words mean rather than trying to determine any objective reality about the word.

However, I will say with the way that I've always understood "craving", if you have had multiple drug dependencies in your life but also say you've never had a craving then I'd say your definition of the word "craving" has an unnecessarily narrow scope. I don't know how anyone could have even taken crack, let alone been dependent on it, who can also say they've never had a craving for it. In my mind cravings are that intense feeling you get when you strongly desire something - usually drugs in my case, but I've also had cravings for sex, food etc. Subjectively for me it seems to come from my chest and I feel like I'm being physically pulled towards the object of my cravings, my thoughts are intrusive and obsessive, I can get a feeling like butterflies in my stomach and a weird mix of excitement/anxiety that's all centered around obtaining what I'm desiring. You must have experienced something similar when you ran out of cocaine?

I've also read that article about Ozzy before! I think it was good to have some scientific backing for what everyone already suspected - that the man is genuinely unusually resilient but prone to the kind of behavior that has made him notorious. I agree with you about addiction - it's one of the only areas where my thinking diverges significantly from the theory of SMART Recovery. I know, and science confirms, that there is a fundamental difference between an addict and non-addict. There's a reason why some people get addicted to practically any substance they even mildly enjoy whereas others can "chip" with heroin for years and never get dependent. The problem is of course that you don't know which one you are until you find the substance that just happens to trigger the right neurons in your brain, until you experience that one feeling that deeply resonates with you - until you have discovered that you will have no idea if you have that propensity or not. I didn't find out till I tried heroin - I have never been a big drinker, and every time I do drink even the thought of doing it the day after repulses me. I loved to smoke weed but never felt out of control with it. I even loved cocaine & crack but by themselves they weren't quite alluring enough to fuck with my life and I took pride in being able to pick up and put down addictive drugs when I felt like it. My flirtation with oxycodone should have rang alarm bells, but the supply was limited, so when I finally found heroin then all the reckless arrogance with which I'd used all other substances came back to bite me on the ass, and I'm still paying the consequences now, 7 years later.

In terms of drug legalization - the first point I want to raise is that the distinction between "natural" and "artificial" drugs is an arbitrary one and doesn't really mean anything. Whether a drug is made in a laboratory or grown has zero bearing on its toxicity, side effects or any other metric of harm. Just because some well-known drugs happen to fall on one or the other side doesn't make it a binary. Who could argue for example that LSD was worse/more dangerous than opium? To your point about cocaine dealers - what's stopping the enormous trade in bootlegging that occurred during prohibtion to still be viable? Why do we buy smirnoff instead of bathtub vodka? When drugs become legalized then though a small market may persist - there is bootleg tobacco and alcohol, after all - the vast majority of it will die out when the illegal industry can no longer compete with the legal one. In states like California people who tried to keep being a weed dealer who didn't find a place in the legal market have quickly found themselves out of a job.

As for the argument about addicts, if you look at places where this has already happened then by every metric it's been a success. Look at Portugal - they've decriminalised all drugs, which yes isn't the same as legalization but the results have still been astounding. Addiction is solely a medical rather than criminal issue and addicts there suffer a lot less as a result. I think the giant list of advantages more than outweigh the small cost of it being more convenient for addicts to find drugs. If you were committed to it I'm sure you could get cocaine today, and for me personally I know that if I'm going to use, I'm going to use and if I'm trying to stay sober then availability of my drug of choice doesn't make a bit of difference unless it's literally impossible for me to get my hands on it, which is never the case.

Like you said, it's the lesser of two evils. The root of the argument comes down to facing the reality of the situation - the war of drugs is based on the farcical fantasy that drug use can be stopped or prevented. It can't. Look at North Korea - the most authoritarian state in the world can't stop methamphetamine & cannabis use. Look at prisons - the most controlled & highly regulated environment possible and still there are drugs in every single one. Drug use is never going to stop, drug dealers will always exist if there's a demand for their product. Are we going to deny that reality and continue prohibiting them with disastrous consequences, or are we as a society finally going to accept that hard truth and try some strategies that could ACTUALLY make a difference?
 
How are you doing @birdup.snowdown ? I hope you're doing OK. Let us know if you've given in!
 
Rio Fantastic said:
How are you doing @birdup.snowdown ? I hope you're doing OK. Let us know if you've given in!

I'm okay. 12 weeks today. Been having crazy vivid dreams. I fell asleep on the couch a couple of days ago. When I woke up, I yelled out "Holy shit! That was the most amazing dream ever." This is what I wrote down:

my unconscious mind said:
I sneak in without an appointment to see God. All the great scientists and philosophers from throughout history are presenting ideas, but He is bored. When it is my turn, I put down the (now empty) jar in front of him. He looks at it, then looks at me. He picks it up and spins it around in his fingers, trying to catch a glimpse of something. Then he opens it up and places it against his nose. He breathes deeply. Slowly, his expression chances. He inhales, again and again.

“That's it,” he says. His voice is excited and urgent. “I can see the clay that the universe was built from.”

The guards have since realized that I tricked them. They burst in through the door. God doesn't notice. He is busy, smelling the jar.

“Above the dark glacier,” he says. He is concentrating. His nose is inside the jar.

They drag me outside. God keeps smelling.

“Above the dark glacier there is a ladder...”

These are the last words I hear him say.

At first, this made me crave psychedelics... but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that psychs have been squashing my dreams.

I am going to try and write a short story based on this vision. If I was still getting stoned everyday, I wouldn't have the inspiration. So, this is a silver lining. Sobriety has many positive elements.

Something I've been thinking about: I've been living my life like I was before just without the drugs. This is why I'm struggling. I need to live a different life. I need to make changes beyond what I'm putting in to my body.

Started swimming again (half a km a day) and walking 5k every morning. Now I need to start writing. It's been a long time.
 
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