wondering about alkaloid contents of datura and belladonna

[brjohnson08]

I was thinking about getting some datura stramonium or belladonna seeds for the potentiation of psychedelics as well as some datura inoxia seeds for use in the prevention of motion sickness as well as lucid dream enhancement. However, I was wondering about the alkaloids they contain. I have read on many forums that datura inoxia contains almost exclusively scopolamine at a content of 0.4% and that belladonna is almost completely hyoscyamine at 0.8%. I also read that datura stramonium seeds have up to 0.7% alkaloids and contain about 80% hyoscyamine. I also know that the concentrations of alkaloids can vary widely between plants. The question I have is that I found a source that seems to contradict the amounts given on many of the forums. This file (http://www.efsa.europa.eu/fr/scdocs/doc/691.pdf) reports levels of alkaloids far below those quoted previously as well as very different ratios between the alkaloids when compared to the quotes given on the forums. I was wondering if someone could point me in the direction of a source that could clear up this confusion for me. Also, any experience reports as well as dosage levels are welcome, particularly about belladonna as a potentiator since there is less reporting of using belladonna seeds to potentiate psychedelics. Please note that I do not have any intention of tripping on datura or belladonna and I highly doubt that I will take more than 5 seeds of datura at a time.
Thank you

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

what are you trying to potentiate? there is probably a much safer substance than datura to potentiate with. If you are eating seeds strait and not extracting pure alkaloids you can only guess how much each seed will contain.

There is no clear answer on how much to use even if you have lots of info and experience reports. You said the alkaloid content can vary widely so even if you do your research you won't know how much the seeds contain.

 

[sekio]

The problem with belladonna and datura is that depending on many variables (soil quality, nitrogen content, sunlight exposure, temperature, physical stress, age of plant, particular strain/genetics, presence of pathogens, differing soil bacteria, etc) the alkaloid content can vary widely.

If you want an anticholinergic to potentiate psychedelics, see about getting scopolamine, hyoscamine, atropine or some other pure isolated refined alkaloid in a measured dosage form. Or use diphenhydramine if you can't get any of the others. Using plant material (seeds, leaves, juices) without having a method to quantitate the alkaloid content (GCMS or LCMS) or even a milligram balance and a lab set to extract and purify the alkaloids and see how much you got, is reckless and you have to do careful dose titration and "lot control". Every time you gather new seeds or whatever they need to be titrated again. Gathering from multiple plants is a no-no too.

The best option is to not take any of these. It's just too risky and most phenethylamines don't need atropine alkaloids to potentiate them.

If you really are committed to this: find one datura plant. Get one seed pod from it and keep all the seeds in a vial or something. Record where and when you got the sample from. Be detailed! If the forensic toxicologists/doctors treating you for an OD/toxicity need a sample of the plant you want them to find the right one.

Crush a counted number of the seeds (not all of them), mix/stir them together in a measured amount of coconut oil, molten beeswax, petroleum jelly or olive oil - about 1-2ml or 1-2 gram per seed. Don't use water. Use oil for effective extraction. You can also use grain alcohol if you must. The idea is you want to distribute all the alkaloids evenly and make a "standard" solution. Measure by weight with a good scale! If you don't have a good 0.01g scale and calibration weights stop and get one! Figure out how much oil you used and how many seeds you used and if the mixture is homogenous you can then measure little doses of your datura-oil and eat it in gel caps. Never take more than one seed equivalent until you get comfortable with your dosage.

Throw it out after 2 months. It has a limited shelf life. You have to repeat this process every time you make a new batch, titration and all, or you will end up overdosing eventually.

Be careful. You can do this safely but it takes a lot of work. Pretend you're an apothecary...

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

I can hardly agree that its all hyoscyamine in belladonna. Theres a fair bit of atropine in there also.

And avoid the use of the root of belladonna in particular, as it contains apoatropine, which is apparently very, very toxic.
Its a real bugger to grow too, at least, it is to start from seed, I've had no luck, with wild harvested seeds, and some seed I was gifted of the albino-flowered variety.

 

[PriestTheyCalledHim]

I've never taken either Belladonna, or Datura; but I have read about people taking them, and met people who did when they took an Ayahuasca admixture in a country where it's legal to do so, and they said it gave them a very unique experience. Be careful.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=93015

This trip report author claims that she had the herb tell her that Belladonna is not meant for use by the male gender:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=88053

 

[Black]

I can hardly agree that its all hyoscyamine in belladonna. Theres a fair bit of atropine in there also.

atropine is an equal mixture of (+)-hyoscyamine and (-)-hyoscyamine.

 

[dooble]

I used up to 10 inoxia seeds (sometimes I used datura but do not remember the amount) to potentiate light doses of opiates. I worked my way up from 6 seeds. 10 seeds worked, but I could have taken a bit more, maybe throw in a bit of MJ/hash and aim for a kind of an Oriental Joy Pill .

In minute doses these are not very dangerous. Use common sense.

 

[FrogWarrior]

I was thinking about getting some datura stramonium or belladonna seeds for the potentiation of psychedelics as well as some datura inoxia seeds for use in the prevention of motion sickness as well as lucid dream enhancement. However, I was wondering about the alkaloids they contain. I have read on many forums that datura inoxia contains almost exclusively scopolamine at a content of 0.4% and that belladonna is almost completely hyoscyamine at 0.8%. I also read that datura stramonium seeds have up to 0.7% alkaloids and contain about 80% hyoscyamine. I also know that the concentrations of alkaloids can vary widely between plants. The question I have is that I found a source that seems to contradict the amounts given on many of the forums. This file (http://www.efsa.europa.eu/fr/scdocs/doc/691.pdf) reports levels of alkaloids far below those quoted previously as well as very different ratios between the alkaloids when compared to the quotes given on the forums. I was wondering if someone could point me in the direction of a source that could clear up this confusion for me. Also, any experience reports as well as dosage levels are welcome, particularly about belladonna as a potentiator since there is less reporting of using belladonna seeds to potentiate psychedelics. Please note that I do not have any intention of tripping on datura or belladonna and I highly doubt that I will take more than 5 seeds of datura at a time.
Thank you

I'm pretty sure the alkaloid content varies from plant to plant. I grew some d. stramonium when I was a teenager, and we smoked some seeds while drunk one night, none of us felt a thing. Some people smoke 4 or 5 seeds and are gone for 36 hours. I smoked the leaves, as well as ate the seeds numerous times too (in careful doses though) but didn't get any effects, haven't tried it since so I never got to try a more potent plant. Start with 1 seed and see what it does. Look for symptoms like dry mouth to indicate how much your MACh receptors are being blocked. Datura tends to have atropine too, atropine doesn't cross the blood brain barrier nearly as well as scopolamine, so it has more non psychoactive side effects. I wanna experiment with low dose datura myself too, especially to see what it does to my dreams. Galantamine is supposed to make lucid dreams happen much more regularly, its an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor (like the acetylcholine version of an MAOI) so it does the opposite of what scopolamine does. I read that one of the major causes of amphetamine psychosis is the long term suppression of acetylcholine activity, so I'm guessing the waking dreams are caused by an acetylcholine rebound. That would explain the dysphoria too. Does anyone know if scopolamine is selective for muscarinic receptors or does it block nicotinic receptors too?

 

[serotonin2A]

Datura tends to have atropine too, atropine doesn't cross the blood brain barrier nearly as well as scopolamine, so it has more non psychoactive side effects.

The action of atropine is stereoselective, and the presence of d-hyoscyamine reduces its potency. This isn't an issue with scopolamine.

I read that one of the major causes of amphetamine psychosis is the long term suppression of acetylcholine activity

You may have read that but it isn't true.

Does anyone know if scopolamine is selective for muscarinic receptors or does it block nicotinic receptors too?

It is selective for muscarinic receptors.