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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Who should be allowed to use drugs?

Unless their house is being broken into, Mr and Mrs Joe Blow couldn't give two shits about the violent criminals. Its why its called the Underground. Bad people doing over other bad people has been going on for decades. Time to time you get a mum holding a picture of her 30yr old missing son but you know he simply ran with the wrong crowd, owed money and is now buried in a shallow grave in the distant rainforest. The only reason there is a crack down on bikes in QLd is because their arrogance thought they could conduct their business in public places with bashings and shootings. If they had kept it on the down low it would be business as usual. Criminal groups will exist with or without drugs because something else will always be better than actually working a job for money. Bad guys are usually lazy guys and they aren't going to go straight as soon as one revenue flow is eliminated. Ditto for terrorists, they would run guns or illegal bookmakers with the same level of violence and profit.

What really upsets the mum and dad voters is seeing kids overdosing, crashing their car under the influence, getting into meth fuel fights out the front of nightclubs, becoming paranoid and pulling a knife on them in a kitchen or losing their job by constantly fucking up while high. All of this will happen regardless if their drugs are legal or not, just as it does with alcohol today.

Yeah, if they are not directly harmed by violent criminals, they may be harmed by violent drug warriors, who arrest their son and put him in jail for getting "high". Getting rid of prohibition is more than pleasing the average family in a first world country...

Of course the only reason a crackdown on bikies is due to bad behavior. Law Enforcement is basically on the same team as the criminals when it comes to prohibition. I wonder why? hmm....

It is so funny when you seem so convinced that a market as lucrative or more lucrative than the drug market exists. I hate to burst your bubble, but it does not. The god damn commodity is worth more than food...Criminal groups will still exist, but they will be a dwarf in comparison to today. It is also laughable that you believe the Taliban could survive by simply gun running and working with illegal bookmakers? Pfthaha, dude seriously, lets be honest about this and stop spewing crap.

I have already argued with you before, and you have proven to argue to the point of utter bullshit...last I remember you were arguing that criminal gangs COULD keep up with the government on purity and pricing rofl. You obviously have either something to lose if drugs are legal or simply a troll who enjoys to spur debate. I think a troll, but anyway, it is good to have ignorant close minded people like you opposing legalization because the more deeper your arguments go, the more desperate and stupid they become. We have clearly seen that prohibition has not worked, CLEARLY...why don't we try something different so we can stop the debate and see both sides of the story?
 
Heroin's problem isn't so much it's physical danger more the shackles of addiction that this drug inflicts. Drug of dependency describes opiates very well. Once you cross a line you become a slave to it's clutches, ironic considering people who call for it's legalisation argue that all they want is personal freedom. If any drug steals your freedom and independence it is opiates. Functional addicts are no better than slaves, and what government in their right mind would want to be the puppet master in charge of the strings for a generation of junkies?

I don't want 'personal freedom' (well, I do, I'm just not particularly interested in it as an ideal in relation to drugs), I want to bring a lawless and deeply damaging black market back within the folds of legal regulation. You can't pretend the market doesn't already exist, it does and it is stupendously large, it generates unthinkable amount of cash and it eats away at the rule of law and even the very sovereignty of nation-states. Abandoning a behemoth like the global drug-market to organised crime is monumentally short-sighted and the resulting mess is clear as day for anyone who cares to look.

Where there is demand, you will always get supply. Nothing is going to change that basic rule of human behaviour. If you abandon that space you simply create a vacuum that is quickly filled. Now, that's not to say that the only alternative is just open-slather, legal drug availability, the key is regulation: how do you meet a pre-existing demand in the safest, least costly and ethical way possible.

For marijuana, that might involve simply selling like we do booze today: legal, highly monitored, regulated, taxed but otherwise freely available to any adult over the age of eighteen. Whereas for heroin, it might be something like the Swiss model of providing maintenance doses of pharmaceutical grade heroin to registered addicts. Personally, I'd make tobacco at the same level of restriction as heroin, give people free tobacco, administered in black packaging by the state via pharmacies to registered addicts, while simultaneously reaching out to them with support services for kicking their addiction etc. Anyone who really, really wants to keep smoking can do that programme, others who are happy to could go onto subsidised onto nicotine replacement drugs or prescription anti-smoking drugs etc. Great thing too about a programme like this is that it pays for itself, the money saved from simply not enforcing the drug laws would easily run into the billions and would likely exceed what you'd have to put into a programme like this.

You have to remember that, after nearly a century of prohibition, there's only one recreational drug the usage of which has declined and that's tobacco. It's exactly *because* tobacco is a drug that is produced, sold and consumed within the confines of legal structure that efforts to restrict its use have been so successful. Health authorities have been able tightly regulate the market; the way it is sold, who it is sold to, the way that it is promoted and who it is promoted to, the price that it is sold at etc. etc. etc. When you make something illegal all off that is out of reach to the authorities, there is no way of controlling it.

There really is no other choice. People want drugs, until you can change that then people are going to supply drugs. The only question is, do you leave that to the crims or should the state have some semblance of control over things.
 
this fuks it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis_by_country#

n also it is a psychoactive substance that can bring on life long Schizo disordrers in some folk who r predisposed


World-cannabis-laws.png

North Korea? Really?
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Criminal groups will exist with or without drugs because something else will always be better than actually working a job for money.

Criminal groups exist wherever the state leaves a vacuum.

When you boil things right down to their bare essentials, the state is basically a sophisticated organised crime outfit, a social compact is formed between the state and the individual that the individual pays their taxes and surrender the right to resort to violence the state will look after you and inflict violence on your behalf against anyone that threatens this compact. A simplification of things, obviously, but essentially that's the way things work: the state reserves the right to a monopoly on violence (it's an actual thing, look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence) and we all live safely under that umbrella.

The same thing applies to markets. The state acts as the final arbiter, it solves problems between individuals, that's the law. When you make a market illegal you are, by very definition, removing it from the constraints of the law. And, in a market, disputes are always going to arise, people are going to try and dominate the market. Once something no longer has the protection of *state* violence then it behoves the individual to utilise violence for themselves to remedy injustices, in such an environment it is natural that the nastiest, most violent people rise to the top.

Criminal groups are the very natural and inevitable consequence of completely removing one aspect of human behaviour from the umbrella of violence under which the rest of society shelters.
 
Yeah, if they are not directly harmed by violent criminals, they may be harmed by violent drug warriors, who arrest their son and put him in jail for getting "high". Getting rid of prohibition is more than pleasing the average family in a first world country...

Who gets put in jail for procession these days? Hell even Scott Miller, who pleaded guilty last week for his second trafficking offence is still out and about. Most states simply slap you on the wrist and make you attend a diversion class if they find you with even a half decent personal collection. You only get jail time if you have a string of robberies or violent assaults added to your rap sheet, even if drugs are legal these are still going to be criminal offences.
 
You have to remember that, after nearly a century of prohibition, there's only one recreational drug the usage of which has declined and that's tobacco. It's exactly *because* tobacco is a drug that is produced, sold and consumed within the confines of legal structure that efforts to restrict its use have been so successful.

It's not because tobacco is a shit drug with no real high? The only reason smoking took off was clever marketing in conjuction with Hollywood. That and handing it out to every shell shocked soldier in WW1 and WW2
 
Who gets put in jail for procession these days? Hell even Scott Miller, who pleaded guilty last week for his second trafficking offence is still out and about. Most states simply slap you on the wrist and make you attend a diversion class if they find you with even a half decent personal collection. You only get jail time if you have a string of robberies or violent assaults added to your rap sheet, even if drugs are legal these are still going to be criminal offences.

Yeah he was pretty lucky not to be put in jail, over 8.5 grams of ice and 16 grand…

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...d-jail-for-drugs/story-e6frg6nf-1226807570989

I wonder if he is really over his addiction and will fuck up again in the next 12 months.
 
It's not because tobacco is a shit drug with no real high?

Clearly you've never had the pleasure of taking a hit of tobacco when your strung the fuck out with nicotine withdrawals - 'tis one of the most pleasurable highs I've ever experienced.

The only reason smoking took off was clever marketing in conjuction with Hollywood.

Yeah - no, that's not accurate at all. The tobacco trade was thriving centuries before that WW1 and/or Hollywood
 
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You mean before any drugs were illegal and there was also a thriving market of opium and cocaine?

That "high" you are experiencing is simply nicotine calming the WD's and bring your body back to normal. It's as much a high as hyperventilating into a paper bag
 
You mean before any drugs were illegal and there was also a thriving market of opium and cocaine?

Prevaricate all you want, fact remains that tobacco rates were brought down from >90% of the population being smokers to <20% of the population being smokers by way of a very successful public health campaign that would have been impossible to implement if tobacco had existed outside of the legal framework in the way most recreational drugs are today.

That "high" you are experiencing is simply nicotine calming the WD's and bring your body back to normal.

Yes. That's kind of my point - that's what "strung the fuck out with nicotine withdrawals" means.

It doesn't matter why it is so, the fact is that nicotine is a very addictive drug and fixing that addiction is very pleasing to people. Sure, we're not talking crack cocaine pleasurable, obviously, but nicotine rewires the reward centres of you brain in much the same way that crack does so that, for many people, smoking is the only way to activate those reward centres.

It's as much a high as hyperventilating into a paper bag

Actually, it's not, that has about absolutely zero to do with the physiology of nicotine addiction, but, it's not important and certainly not relevant to the thread topic.
 
Utilising the long weekend to stop smoking forever I can say that nicotine at this point would most certainly be an exhilarating high. Beside the point.

There are so many studies showing that prevention and treatment is the most effective and cheapest method of dealing with harm reduction from drugs and that criminalisation and punishment is the least effective and most expensive then legalisation should be a no-brainer.

Obviously different drugs need a different type of regulation, education etc. but humans are generally smart, assuming harm reduction is their motivation and not other things like social control.

Society however is not ready for people taking to the streets saying legalise everything. It needs to be done slowly and marijuana law reform would seem to be the appropriate place to start.
 
Who gets put in jail for procession these days? .

Ok. how about Uncle Joe's little nephew getting a conviction for possession that will follow him forever? It will affect if he can travel or get a job. What about the rights his nephew gives up once s small amount of drugs are found on him? What if he gets expelled from school without being given a chance?

It's not because tobacco is a shit drug with no real high?

OLOLOL...clearly never been addicted to nicotine, tololoLOL. Shut your troll mouth if you have no idea. At least pretend to not be a troll.

Utilising the long weekend to stop smoking forever I can say that nicotine at this point would most certainly be an exhilarating high. Beside the point.

There are so many studies showing that prevention and treatment is the most effective and cheapest method of dealing with harm reduction from drugs and that criminalisation and punishment is the least effective and most expensive then legalisation should be a no-brainer.

Obviously different drugs need a different type of regulation, education etc. but humans are generally smart, assuming harm reduction is their motivation and not other things like social control.

Society however is not ready for people taking to the streets saying legalise everything. It needs to be done slowly and marijuana law reform would seem to be the appropriate place to start.

Strongly agree with all your points. Legalisation is really the only way we can truly know. What form that takes is debatable, but the way things are now and the power drug gangs have is just unacceptable. Don't worry about gold plated AK-47s the Cartels have, they have god-damn ATVs transformed into TANKS. All due to the wonderful black market...this is not the way to go, but the thing is, legalization is up against both the criminals and law enforcement, not to mention big powerful business and transnational corporations from all ends of industry. It is going to take a very long time, if ever...I am also afraid that the Marijuana reform may actually turn the argument more so towards keeping prohibition. It may eat up all the energy of the people to the point where they will be content with legal weed and again be easily persuaded by the players I mentioned legalization is up against above.
 
I think stuff like weed should be legalised and free for all, it's harmless stuff, certaintly better than alcohol. But things like lsd, before my first trip I was under the belief than all drugs should be available but now I think certain stuff needs to be done in controlled environments but still legalised though. As far as who should do it depends on the individual, not a generalised yes or no. Everyone is different and I think every person themselves should be able to judge whether they can handle it or not. I guess experience is the really only solid way of knowing but I think if you have mental problems then it's probably best not to do anything.
 
. But things like lsd, before my first trip I was under the belief than all drugs should be available but now I think certain stuff needs to be done in controlled environments but still legalised though.

FAR more important than recreational legalization I think is letting psychiatrists prescribe things like psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, Ibogaine for therapeutic use... - MDMA in particular can be an extremely useful, life changing tool for people with PTSD, and I'd guess it would work for other things where the patient has been unable to open up and participate in psychotherapy. It's a damn shame that all those people that could benefit are missing out. There's no good reason why it shouldn't be legalized as a controlled prescription-only drug.
 
And diacetylmorphine, why is that illegal? Blah blah addicts, blah blah problems, blah blah. We already have addicts, we already have problems. It's so ridiculous having to reduce arguments to kindergarten level so people will listen.
 
I believe in all I have said. and some of what others have said above, but we should be 'allowed''to grow and smoke; chemicallly prepare and take; buy and do what we like in our own homes etc. if we don't put others at risk, and have a good BlueRay to watch or someone to fuck without worrying about the Standard Issue kicking down our doors.
 
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