When will Testosterone levels return to pre-opiate use levels?

[Dr Pepper]

Yes. They influence testes and even erectile tissues directly, as well as fucking up the HPTA and severely lowering LH, which causes test to fall into the hypogonadal range. For a long term user, this effect is constant, and can lead to a range of problems associated with low T including muscle loss, immune function being compromised, as well as sexual health and even brain health..

 

[negrogesic]

Read some of my old posts. I talk about this subject in depth.

 

[atara]

So... opioids make testosterone go down ? is it for this reason that I have 0 libido when I use it ?

No, obviously not, testosterone isn't psychoactive, not directly to be clear. It modulates growth and neurotransmitter levels but a single dose of testosterone is just going to produce a placebo effect.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101

The men received injections of 600 mg of testosterone enanthate or placebo weekly for 10 weeks. [...] Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group.

It's just another steroid, it does it's little song and dance and obviously promotes muscle growth. Testosterone levels are not somehow going to make you a different person, and your libido is by no means a function of mere testosterone; I doubt it is influenced at all by momentary testosterone levels.

Opioids don't kill your libido for low testosterone; they kill your libido because they destroy your reward system, and who needs sex when you've got heroin? If you use opioids recreationally, the only sane advice is to quit while [if] you still can.

Read some of my old posts. I talk about this subject in depth.

e.g.:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/383181-opiates-and-testosterone

 

[endotropic]

No, obviously not, testosterone isn't psychoactive, not directly to be clear. It modulates growth and neurotransmitter levels but a single dose of testosterone is just going to produce a placebo effect.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199607043350101

I was actually fairly surprised by that finding. It's very commonly assumed that high T causes aggressive, libidinous behaviors, and low T the opposite. When the Mayo clinic makes claims like these:

The possibilities of testosterone therapy are enticing — increase your muscle mass, sharpen your memory and concentration, boost your libido, and improve your energy level.

it's really not surprising that many people think that testosterone levels have a direct effect on libido, cognition, etc. If chronically supplementing testosterone can give those kinds of benefits, then wouldn't you expect chronically depleting testosterone to cause the opposite?

 

[atara]

it's really not surprising that many people think that testosterone levels have a direct effect on libido, cognition, etc. If chronically supplementing testosterone can give those kinds of benefits, then wouldn't you expect chronically depleting testosterone to cause the opposite?

I think the key word is chronic. Over time, testosterone and company (DHT, estradiol, etc) create all of the secondary sex characteristics of maleness, they influence how the brain grows, and so forth. While my anatomy knowledge is a bit thin, my understanding has always been that testosterone isn't a neurotransmitter, it's a hormone; it affect things at what you might call the pre-neurotransmitter level. And it makes sense, of course, that the body should have molecules to do that; not every chemical can be a mood chemical a la histamine, which histamine IIRC is involved in the vasodilation of momentary arousal alongside nitric oxide.

The quoted poster in my interpretation of his question asked why heroin killed his sex drive in the particular moment of usage; many years of conversing with opiate users has told me that on opioids one can expect to last really long and in fact a couple of people claimed that heroin made them great at sex, the flip side being that opioid users often lose interest in sex which, perhaps more importantly, was an effect seen also in women, whomin testosterone is not necessary for sexual arousal (though it is a correlate). The general agreement was that opioids are better than sex, which I no longer find surprising.

 

[QUARE]

Libido increase significantly during PAWS IME

 

[pinpoint]

^ I see a lot of reports of people coming off long-term bupe therapy and am just curious if there are any studies that definitively show a resulting decrease in testosterone? I ask because I know Reckitt Benckiser claims that there is not a decrease in testosterone from Suboxone use...

I am a bit over 30 days clean from 4 years of Suboxone use. I feel fine, no real desire to use the shit again. My T levels were low while on Suboxone but rebounded significantly about 2 weeks after cessation, which corresponded to the last of the buprenorphine leaving my body. I'm an otherwise healthy 26-year old so YMMV. However I did have issues with my adrenal glands, namely cortisol dumps early in the morning, adrenaline dumps randomly throughout the day and a feeling of overwhelming fatigue. I supplemented with Rhodiola Rosea along with proper diet and daily exercise and I'm basically at 95% right now. This of course is just my anecdotal evidence but may be reassuring to some.

Suboxone is NOT a life-sentence. Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. Yes it sucks to quit, but if you want it you CAN do it.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Got back on opiates/sub, pelvis still broken and not improving so i decided to go on Testosterone cypionate injections and 250iu hcg 2x per week. doc started me at 50mg of cyp per week only.. i get another blood test in like 3 weeks. Will take it like a day or two before injection, or perhaps day of, so I can get the trough reading and get my dose upped.. 50mg of cyp translates to less than 35 mg of T due to the weight of the ester. I got the vial today.. it has 2000mg of test in 10ml. Right off the bat i pinned 100mg, 2 days after my 50mg shot. Just to see if I felt different with a high lv. I feel pretty good, did a bunch of pushups and got 50 deep ones on the knucles, which is better than my normal 40-45.. so maybe the CNS is getting stimulated. Hoping the test will heal broken pelvis and help with nerve healing and overall recovery. Then I will use it after surgery to fix my pelvis and get it in the right position. Hopefully then I will fix my pain, get off the opiates, and use Clomid/HCG to restore fertility and natural testosterone.

They want me to bank sperm.. its gonna be like 400-500 dollars for semen analysis, and some blood tests, and 30 dollars a month to bank it.
My doctor is kind of adamant I do it but i don't want kids for like 10 years at least and thats like 10 grand if I bank it that long.. and i'll probably restore my fertility anyways. Plus ive been smoking lots of weed and some cigs so I hope the sperm are fine. If i don't comply with doc i still have the test so i could go for 5 months on this one vial of T at 100mg/week. wut do?

 

[QUARE]

I wanted to know if testosterone lower after first dose or over time ?

 

[sekio]

It's a concern with chronic use. A short course of opioid therapy while your broken toe heals or whatever isn't usually a concern. If you're using heroin for a year then that's a different scenario.

 

[jmac4life]

interferon testosterone concern

I have a similar issue. I am 28 years old. I just finished interferon (3 months) 2 months ago and my testosterone is at 264 ng/dl. I feel like depressed emotionally and physically weak and cant focus or remember and I'm wondering if mine will go to a normal range or if it even was normal before. I've seen studies where the average subject was at 650 prior to interferon treatment and dropped to 450. 1 month later back up to 550. I'm not even close.

 

[neversickanymore]

No, obviously not, testosterone isn't psychoactive, not directly to be clear.

It certainly effects mood, anxiety, confidence, stress, sex drive, energy levels.. to name a few.. so I what do we attribute this to then?

 

[chicken hoagie]

It certainly effects mood, anxiety, confidence, stress, sex drive, energy levels.. to name a few.. so I what do we attribute this to then?

The downregulation of your dopamine, serotonin, and opioid receptors in general, due to the continuous firing of these neurons from opiate intake. These neurotransmitters are what produce the high, as well as the low afterwards..Not really anything to do with testosterone, although could play a role in the dramatic weight loss in many who abuse opiates.

When your body downregulates dopamine receptors, it tends to increase the regulation of norepinephrine, which can be a big cause for mood swings and anxiety.

Basically, when you go through withdrawal, your body kicks its immune system into overdrive, thus what causes the sickness. The healing process takes time as your body naturally starts to recognize the lack of opiates in the diet and begins to produce neurotransmitters to the levels they were beforehand. The bright side to opiate addiction though, seems to be that almost all users can recover fully without any lasting side effects. The memories of pleasure and addiction will always remain implanted in a users mind, but symptoms will disappear..Opiates do not tend to cause any changes in DNA, unlike many stimulants seem to do, as well as possibly benzo's and maybe even alcohol with long-enough use?

i don't have any complete evidence regarding the DNA changes, but that seems to be an easy, general consensus.

 

[neversickanymore]

I posted to broad a quote so my point may have been confusing. I edited to fix this.

I was referring to testosterone ability to effects mood, anxiety, confidence, stress, sex drive, energy levels.. etc. A few more examples of steroids having psychoactive effects would be Bipolar individuals who are thrown into hypomanic and manic states by drugs like prednisone.. also "normal" people often feal similar, bit less profound.

Basically, when you go through withdrawal, your body kicks its immune system into overdrive, thus what causes the sickness.

My opinion would be that what happens instead is a pan hypothalamic dysregulation in response/pluss effects from a chemical is removed from a tolerant system, and possibly including uncomfortable manipulations of a addicted limbic system if there is an addiction on top of a physical dependence. These are also the likely the cause of the mood swings. Not saying epe has nothing to do with it, just I think the cause of it lies here. Also many times you see people in heavy moods swings who are having what seem to be a strong lasting drops in adrenals during acutes.

The healing process takes time as your body naturally starts to recognize the lack of opiates in the diet and begins to produce neurotransmitters to the levels they were beforehand.

This and it adjusts the number of receptors as well.

The memories of pleasure and addiction will always remain implanted in a users mind, but symptoms will disappear..

I no longer think they are memories, but rather fantasies. I think the limbic system uses them to drive the conscious to do what it wants. This technique is often used when a positive goal (or negative danger) is recognized. Or if a specific action is desired. Try not giving yourself and sexual satisfaction for a month or two, if your not continuously on a drug or medication that kills the sex drive, you will begin to "think about" and fantasize about sex. But I don't think its us thinking about it, I think we are fed it to manipulate us into finding a way to get laid. Just like they say after a little while all an addict can remeber is the good parts.. I don't think they are remembering, but instead being fed fantasies as a manipulation to drive use.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Adrenals are related to norepinephrine..

Adrenaline = epinephrine

Noradrenaline = ..yea.

They're both produced in excess after the dopaminergic reward system becomes saturated and downregulated..Which both contribute to the hostile side effects opiate withdrawal brings. As well as glutamate, I am guessing..Which could provoke seizures or convulsions in some users. Any past benzo addiction could also increase the odds of these negative side effects as it takes months if not years for some users' GABA receptors to return to 100% default functionality..

 

[neversickanymore]

Adrenals are related to norepinephrine..

Adrenaline = epinephrine

Noradrenaline = ..yea.

They're both produced in excess after the dopaminergic reward system becomes saturated and downregulated..Which both contribute to the hostile side effects opiate withdrawal brings

. How does clonodine an adrenal agonist treat this?

is this the idea you were presenting before

In withdrawal syndrome, the theory is that the brain is sending erratic "fight or flight" signals to the adrenals and the adrenals are obediently responding with adrenaline and cortisol, as they are designed to do.

The normal diurnal cortisol cycle may be exaggerated, as we see when people wake up with panic or anxiety due to the morning cortisol spike. However, there may be waves or surges of cortisol on and off throughout the day, felt as waves of what we call neuro-anxiety, neuro-melancholy, or neuro-panic

 

[chicken hoagie]

Cortisol would also contribute to anxiety and other mental problems withdrawal produces.

Not sure what you mean by Clonidine. I've certainly heard of its anxiolytic effects and ability to lower blood pressure, but side effects i also see commonly include anxiety.

The pharmacology of clonidine seems more complicated than the stimulation of a2 receptors in the brain. If anxiety is being caused by high blood pressure, then the lowering of blood pressure could relieve symptoms in some, possibly enabling the heart to work more effeciently and improve blood circulation. For someone like me, who already has low blood pressure, clonidine would probably make me uncomfortable to say the least. It also binds and works at other receptors apart from a2 which could contribute to it's numerous other implications.

Withdrawal from opiates seems clear-cut to me. When you over-use certain receptors in your body, they will downregulate themselves to compensate for the adjusted "diet" it is used to in order to contain the body's natural equilibrium. Everyone's body has a different equilibrium because everyone's DNA is different, obviously..

Our natural opioid peptides released by opiates is what causes all of the unique highs that different opiates bring. There are many different endogenous peptides designed to perform many different functions. Kappa, mu, delta receptors are just to name a few..they all play variable roles, as the numerous different peptides in our body provide numerous different cascade effects for numerous different neurotransmitters.

Furthermore, chronic use can cause downregulation of the opioid receptors in general, and this will clearly cause increased pain perception, and increased anxiety due to all of the compensatory neurotransmitters taking over for the lack of our dopamine, serotonin and soforth.

What comes up, most go down is the saying best used when it comes to opiate use..as well as stimulants. Your body wants an equilibrium, so the further and longer you pull away from your body's equilibrium, the quicker and harder it is going to snap right in the opposite direction.

 

[neversickanymore]

Not sure what you mean by Clonidine. I've certainly heard of its anxiolytic effects and ability to lower blood pressure, but side effects i also see commonly include anxiety.

Clonidine is very often prescribed for opiate and other withdrawals.. It is actually thought and shown to reduce anxiety, restlessness, sweating, burning skin, etc. You can look up the dosage and such in the Tarascon or something similar. I was just curious as to how it works.

Furthermore, chronic use can cause downregulation of the opioid receptors in general, and this will clearly cause increased pain perception, and increased anxiety due to all of the compensatory neurotransmitters taking over for the lack of our dopamine, serotonin and soforth.

What comes up, most go down is the saying best used when it comes to opiate use..as well as stimulants. Your body wants an equilibrium, so the further and longer you pull away from your body's equilibrium, the quicker and harder it is going to snap right in the opposite direction.

I think your right on about the brain and body wanting equilibrium and I often state this when I converse with people on BL. Tolerance is a great example. Emotion is intended to motivat us to figure something out, address a problem, change something. When we look a newly clean addict, from a wide variety of substances, we see unnaturally high emotional responses is early recovery. I feal that the emotional response has been ramped up to try and, as you stated, return to the desired level despite the addition of the chemical. When this chemical is removed we then have the adjusted system minus the component it had made the adjustment to overcome. This causes the unnatural high emotional response.

Like you said the same thing for the localized emotion of pain. This I also feal the chronic opiate therapy ends up causing people more pain than they would be in without it. Especially with short acting opiates. Think about if a person has a pain level of 8 without the opiate. The person is then given opiate therapy which brings the pain level initially down to a 2. The brain, liking its homeostasis, then ramps up the level the pain response to compensate for the addition of the chemical. So after a while the pain level with the opiate on board at full level returns to a seven when the opiate level at full strength. Then as the opiate wares of in between doses a person's pain level rises up to ten or so. So I feal that chronic opiate therapy actually ends up creating much more pain than the person would experience without it.

 

[chicken hoagie]

Interesting..Clonidine seems to be a very pharmacologically unique drug, and seeing I've never even taken a pharmacology class I couldn't really explain any more about it.

But yes, perhaps a downside or an upside to being human, the body is constantly pushed by our DNA's instructions to maintain an equilibrium throughout. And yes, with chronic opiate therapy, the receptors do become desensitized over time. Although there are new drugs coming out on the market that seem to specialize in regaining receptor sensitivity, such as Flumazenil for benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. Some of the opioid-antagonist/mixed-agonist/antagonist medication out now I believe provides a similar effect, no? Despite these drugs, a patients best route that is under opiate therapy, is to treat the symptoms physically rather than mentally, or with drugs. Pain can actually improve over time for many patients, depending on whatever the pain is deriving from of course.

Basically, as with many drugs of psychoactive use, chronically abusing them, like anything, will result in damagein some fashion. But, humans are as resilient as any other living thing on the planet, so if one is determined to recover fully, then they will..Never underestimate what the mind's effects have on the body.

Ibogaine being a perfect example.

 

[Acanthus]

Coming off 16mg Suboxone daily after 3 years, I think it was about a week after withdrawals had subsided, and I wanked very satisfactorily probably 8 times in a single day. Yes your sex drive comes racing back. It was like greeting a really good friend you hadn't seen in a couple of years. I probably could've even easily wanked off to a picture of Angela Merkel. So no need for any costly studies, the answer is clearly: yes.