When is it OK to skip a night of sleep, really?

[Vastness]

So to summarise, for a long time I've been self medicating what I suspect recently to be some form of ADHD with various psychostimulants, from piracetam to modafinil, to amphetamine, most recently. Since the beginning, these have always had negative effects on my sleeping patterns, to a greater or lesser extent. I thought moda was bad but, perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm finding amphetamine to be even worse. Two nights ago - I could not sleep all night and eventually basically gave up as I knew I had to be awake for a certain hour and judged that a few hours of crappy sleep would be basically pointless compared to the stress of just lying there. The night after (last night) I slept 15 hours and woke up feeling rested enough.

Tonight, it's past 3 AM, I really, ideally need to be awake by 7.30 at the latest, I've just redosed another 150mg of methaqualone in an effort to hasten the onset of sleep... but I took my last dose of stimulant too late, I'm not tired, my mind is racing. I can lie still and try to meditate, but it seems like sleep may just elude me again.

I know sleep is important - I know even skipping one night of sleep is harmful. I've been making things harder for myself by being insensible with the timings of my doses of stimulants recently, starting too late in the day - even though I have always kept them within a therapeutic range, even if, arguably, on the sharp edge of what would be, hypothetically, medically endorsed.

I'm wondering now, should I just give up on sleep tonight, try to use this time well, dose my chosen stimulant in the early AM (in a few hours, basically), power through, then compensate with an early night this evening? Or should I continue lying here until morning?

Once, I knew I only had an hour so I just committed to a Yoga Nidra sleep meditation for the duration, trying to rest my body and mind as much as possible even if actual sleep did not come, and it seemed to help... in that the next day was not too bad at all compared to some other write off days I have had.

So, this is a vague question but, what I am asking essentially is WHEN IS IT OK just to give up on sleeping? If I just lie down for 3 hours - or maybe listening to some guided meditations to focus my mind - is that preferable to just getting up and "resting" in ways that do not involve lying down with my eyes closed until morning?

I feel that psychostimulants are a necessity at this point in my life - so that is a definite complicating factor. I will try to be smarter about my dosing in future though.

Hence, I ask here because googling "when is it OK to just give up on sleeping" yields results which, I feel, are likely not geared towards stimulant drug users, and also are typically, perhaps, very overcautious on the use of pharmacological sleep aids - of which I have used a few, although always very rarely - which may seem strange given the relative frequency with which I have used wakefulness enhancers.

But... yeah. How much damage am I doing? Anyone can relate, or have any personal experiences they would like to share?

When IS IT okay to just give up on sleeping???

 

[thegreenhand]

I can’t speak from personal experience but it’s ~probably~ ok to skip a night of sleep every few weeks or so if you need. God knows I used to do that when I took acid a lot more. The real issue with losing sleep, especially due to stimulants, is psychosis. If you must miss a night of sleep you MUST sleep well the next to reset your system. A meditative rest may have some benefits but it’s nots an adequate replacement for sleep. I’d probably do some work or something if I was gonna be stimmed up that late personally but if it’s worked in the past for you then sure go for it. Don’t beat yourself up too much, but definitely make it an early one tomorrow

 

[Vastness]

Thanks for your response. Am still awake, surprisingly. I don't think I am in any danger of stimulant psychosis realistically. I probably will just start on some work soon. The thing is for me it has almost always been the case that the wakefulness enhancing effects persist far beyond any actual useful stimulation, leading me to feel the need to take more stimulant... although generally, I do not, at least not immediately... ideally, not until the next morning, once I've hit my pre-decided threshold... hence the attempt to sleep rather than just keep on churning out productivity. The motivational deficit I'm attempting to offset via stimulants is just as present as ever in the sleepless but no longer useful aftermath, unfortunately. That sounds super lazy to write, I'm of course well aware of the dangers of using stimulants to induce motivation... but, this is an issue I haven't managed to resolve in an entirely substance free manner in a very long time, and have for the most part managed to navigate the region where somewhat therapeutic usage and motivation enhancement overlap for a while now too... not perfectly, obviously, probably this is not sustainable long term, but the sleep issue for sure seems the most pressing. Anyway as I say, it's almost morning... thanks again for your input.

 

[polymath]

It's not really ok except in war or some emergency situation where there's no other choice, but missing a night of sleep a few times a year probably doesn't do much damage (unless you have bipolar and that can trigger a psychosis).

 

[thegreenhand]

Thanks for your response. Am still awake, surprisingly. I don't think I am in any danger of stimulant psychosis realistically. I probably will just start on some work soon. The thing is for me it has almost always been the case that the wakefulness enhancing effects persist far beyond any actual useful stimulation, leading me to feel the need to take more stimulant... although generally, I do not, at least not immediately... ideally, not until the next morning, once I've hit my pre-decided threshold... hence the attempt to sleep rather than just keep on churning out productivity. The motivational deficit I'm attempting to offset via stimulants is just as present as ever in the sleepless but no longer useful aftermath, unfortunately. That sounds super lazy to write, I'm of course well aware of the dangers of using stimulants to induce motivation... but, this is an issue I haven't managed to resolve in an entirely substance free manner in a very long time, and have for the most part managed to navigate the region where somewhat therapeutic usage and motivation enhancement overlap for a while now too... not perfectly, obviously, probably this is not sustainable long term, but the sleep issue for sure seems the most pressing. Anyway as I say, it's almost morning... thanks again for your input.

Obviously it’s nowhere near the power of a prescription stimulant tea has been really helpful for me. Unlike coffee, it contains L-
theanine which has a rather complex pharmacology but essentially it promotes relaxation and calm. It pairs extremely with the caffeine in tea. If you get higher quality loose leaf tea made from camellia sinensis (so not an herbal tea) it’ll do. With the loose leaf tea you can get multiple steepings with progressively less caffeine and so by the end of the day one set of leaves may give me 4-5 steeps worth and the last one is barely psychoactive so I can drink it even right before bed. Again, I know it’s nowhere near as powerful as a true stimulant but it does provide some nice external motivation

 

[themoreyouknow]

Hi Vastness,
I know this might seem very disappointing, but unfortunately there isn’t really a way to help your attention deficit with stimulants. They are okay for emergencies or when you can really keep your shit together and dose them very low without redosing. And even if you apply the utmost discipline you probably can’t use them daily without some damage on your body and psyche in the long run.
There are a couple of reasons for this.
For one you induce immense stress to your body, while on stimulants. Meaning you get a weakend immune response and more oxidative stress (more aging) among other things.
the other thing is, that from a psychological standpoint using stimulants when you already have some form of attention deficit is not wise, because stimulants can induce attention deficit.They even certainly will if you develop a habit, with symptoms such as not wanting to stop, raising dosage and continuing use despite possible negative consequences such as a bad night of sleep.

in conclusion I would strongly advise you to stop using stimulants even if this seems almost impossible, because they like to trick you into thinking you need them.
The best thing you can do is Psychotherapy because there you can learn some techniques that will help you in the long run with your problem.
the next best thing I think is meditation, biofeedback and some adaptogen use of you want to take something.

 

[Vastness]

Obviously it’s nowhere near the power of a prescription stimulant tea has been really helpful for me. Unlike coffee, it contains L-
theanine which has a rather complex pharmacology but essentially it promotes relaxation and calm. It pairs extremely with the caffeine in tea. If you get higher quality loose leaf tea made from camellia sinensis (so not an herbal tea) it’ll do. With the loose leaf tea you can get multiple steepings with progressively less caffeine and so by the end of the day one set of leaves may give me 4-5 steeps worth and the last one is barely psychoactive so I can drink it even right before bed. Again, I know it’s nowhere near as powerful as a true stimulant but it does provide some nice external motivation

I do drink tea occasionally, actually there was a period of time recently where I was just drinking a cup of tea in the mornings and somehow managed to keep it together workwise with only that... so obviously it is possible for me to get by without harder stimulants... just after some time, inevitably, I seem to get tired of the struggle which is what it always seems to be - although maybe my phrasing of that to myself is part of the problem - and look for more "robust" pharmacological solutions, so to speak... I am a bit wary of caffeine in general, I know that might seem weird given my recent dalliances with amphetamine but I used to drink a lot of coffee and have realised recently that not only does it make me quite anxious, the useful effects are very short lasting (not new knowledge, for sure, the levels of caffeine in coffee are well known to have a short spike in energy levels compared to tea)... also caffeine withdrawal is pretty hellish, I had a week recently where I thought I might have coronavirus and in retrospect I think caffeine withdrawal was actually a big part of that. I don't have experience with hard withdrawals from anything really though so when I say it's "hellish" that is obviously relative, it's surely not as bad as opiate or benzo withdrawals for example... but yeah, it felt pretty bad to me.

Hi Vastness,
I know this might seem very disappointing, but unfortunately there isn’t really a way to help your attention deficit with stimulants. They are okay for emergencies or when you can really keep your shit together and dose them very low without redosing. And even if you apply the utmost discipline you probably can’t use them daily without some damage on your body and psyche in the long run.
There are a couple of reasons for this.
For one you induce immense stress to your body, while on stimulants. Meaning you get a weakend immune response and more oxidative stress (more aging) among other things.
the other thing is, that from a psychological standpoint using stimulants when you already have some form of attention deficit is not wise, because stimulants can induce attention deficit.They even certainly will if you develop a habit, with symptoms such as not wanting to stop, raising dosage and continuing use despite possible negative consequences such as a bad night of sleep.

in conclusion I would strongly advise you to stop using stimulants even if this seems almost impossible, because they like to trick you into thinking you need them.
The best thing you can do is Psychotherapy because there you can learn some techniques that will help you in the long run with your problem.
the next best thing I think is meditation, biofeedback and some adaptogen use of you want to take something.

Ah, no doubt you are right. This is surely a failed experiment for me. I have honestly never got much from adaptogens - but I have intermittently used much milder nootropics, piracetam, noopept and all that, as well as modafinil, which I have taken today (well actually, armodafinil)... The latter is not without it's own problems for sure and perhaps my long term use of it has exacerbated my attention deficit, but it's surely a more sustainable option that amphetamines, it seems.

Meditation is something I already try to practice daily, I'm not so familiar with any biofeedback techniques though, I will look into that.

 

[thegreenhand]

I do drink tea occasionally, actually there was a period of time recently where I was just drinking a cup of tea in the mornings and somehow managed to keep it together workwise with only that... so obviously it is possible for me to get by without harder stimulants... just after some time, inevitably, I seem to get tired of the struggle which is what it always seems to be - although maybe my phrasing of that to myself is part of the problem - and look for more "robust" pharmacological solutions, so to speak... I am a bit wary of caffeine in general, I know that might seem weird given my recent dalliances with amphetamine but I used to drink a lot of coffee and have realised recently that not only does it make me quite anxious, the useful effects are very short lasting (not new knowledge, for sure, the levels of caffeine in coffee are well known to have a short spike in energy levels compared to tea)... also caffeine withdrawal is pretty hellish, I had a week recently where I thought I might have coronavirus and in retrospect I think caffeine withdrawal was actually a big part of that. I don't have experience with hard withdrawals from anything really though so when I say it's "hellish" that is obviously relative, it's surely not as bad as opiate or benzo withdrawals for example... but yeah, it felt pretty bad to me.


Ah, no doubt you are right. This is surely a failed experiment for me. I have honestly never got much from adaptogens - but I have intermittently used much milder nootropics, piracetam, noopept and all that, as well as modafinil, which I have taken today (well actually, armodafinil)... The latter is not without it's own problems for sure and perhaps my long term use of it has exacerbated my attention deficit, but it's surely a more sustainable option that amphetamines, it seems.

Meditation is something I already try to practice daily, I'm not so familiar with any biofeedback techniques though, I will look into that.

Oh yes caffeine certainly comes with its demons. Withdrawal for me is a splitting headache all day. As themoreyouknow said, meditation and psychotherapy will be the most effective but of course those don’t provide instant results. Something I read once (maybe it was on BL??) that helped my perspective was that you need to remember that it is still YOU doing the work not the drug. The drug helps for sure but you are still the protagonist of your actions.

Sorry I know there isn’t much neuroscience going on in this thread. Unfortunately, I don’t know of anyway to avoid the desire for stimulants. If science had that figured out I think we’d all be at the Doc’s office for some addy

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Sleep tends to bring out one's challenges in a more highlighted manner. It's best not to avoid sleep. We really do need it. Some need less than others, but we all need it.

 

[Xorkoth]

I often have trouble sleeping, and when I do, I have learned that it is better to lay there all night trying to sleep, not moving, breathing slow, drifting, than it is to give up and get up and do things. Whenever I miss a whole night of sleep by staying up, I feel it a lot the next day and feel sleep deprived, but when I lay there for the night, I feel much more rested, although it's obviously not as good as actually falling asleep.

 

[dopamimetic]

Yeah, relaxing can be almost like sleep, even more so with dissociatives (don't do it, I never believed in frying neurons but ended up thinking a lot about that due to heavily increased 'noise to ratio' level, the opposite of what you want.. noise in every sense, like a sort of badly adjusted analog channel TV.. and hints of positive symptoms, but I abused the hell out of RC dissos, and lived for some months in a 2-3(-4) day up, 14-16h sleep, repeat rhythm. Quit the hard ones because but am on memantine now and again it causes heavy insomnia, not the usual tired-n-wired kind like when using stims but a relaxed one, almost like the daytime just got doubled again..

So, I am interested in the question too. As has been said, an occasional night off probably will not make increase your chances of corona or turn you into a zombie. Nights in a row are certainly unhealthy as speedfreaks can prove but what about nights when you don't really feel any need for sleep? I have asked about this before but afair there was no real answer (too as it is strongly related to said dissos, they can much decrease the sense of? or real? need for sleep)

Take out chemicals, I usually have good sleep but when nights are bad, I find it horribly to stay in bed turning around and franatically trying to sleep so I usually end up on computer in these nights- certainly not the best thing to do but it distracts.. sometimes I'll catch a little sleep later despite blue screen light but yeah, w/o nmda antags the next day will be a misery, with or without stims (have certified ADS, but not without some doubt of my self).. there I tend to find caffeine one of the better ones against tiredness, but it is heavily inhibiting sleep too.

Oh, opioids also can mess up sleep patterns. Had violent nightmares on morphin, every single night for months waking up screaming.. doc didn't believe and convinced me I was getting them out of otherwise sickness, until I replaced morphin with memantine* and boom they're gone.

*(confirmed, this works flawlessly and is imho hugely underrated)

But, are stims, used in moderation, really of no benefit, not even on debt?

 

[TripSitterNZ]

I skip one night of sleep near weekly for a long time usually because i always take LSD at night. Usually takes 4 days to catch up on the missed sleep but then i go and do it again every week. During stim use i would stay awake for 3 days straight during exam periods back in university for chemistry and math.

I also have sleep apena now sometimes it has been so bad i have woken up not been able to breathe choking on my saliva for over a minute. So i never get good sleep. My go to rule back in the days was if im still not asleep by 4 am and i have to wake up at 7 am was simply pop way more stimulants stay awake and redose through the day as needed and hopefully crash by the end of the next night. Neither was good on my heart. My bare minimum sleep to function i found out was probably 4 hours + aid of stimulants after.

The lack of sleeping i believe has one part in my very poor cardio health that has stacked up as the years go on i should probably go see a doctor eventually about it but for now ignorance is bliss i dont want to deal with it.

The lack of sleep also leads to more depression and cognitive brain fog. Missing sleep is okay on a rare occasion but don't make a habit out of it as the effects will creep on you as you age.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I often have trouble sleeping, and when I do, I have learned that it is better to lay there all night trying to sleep, not moving, breathing slow, drifting, than it is to give up and get up and do things. Whenever I miss a whole night of sleep by staying up, I feel it a lot the next day and feel sleep deprived, but when I lay there for the night, I feel much more rested, although it's obviously not as good as actually falling asleep.

As a long term stimulant user I totally agree with this - except rather than 'trying to sleep' I recommend just quietly rolling with whatever your state of wakefullness is. Just resting quietly, usually listening to chill music and taking deep slow easy breaths and letting your thoughts go where they will is WAY better than staying up all night and doing stuff when you cannot sleep.

However, I do know that some people get panicky when they try to sleep but can't sleep - especially on stims - so taking a warm shower or bath and having a herbal tea to get you chilled enough to just lie down is sometimes useful. Chilled music is good because it soaks up your mental energy grooving with it but does not stimulate you any further like reading or watching a movie would.

 

[Lil'LinaptkSix]

It's not really ok except in war or some emergency situation where there's no other choice,

All kindsa shit morphs when adrenalized. I kinda like the feeling but all the while knowing my body and morale can last only so long maybe 3 days and trippin starts ..no good. Certainly not an adrenaline junky as I will flip like a pancake if a situation goes south. Going out of the way to avoid it as dealing with this still.
This is kinda cool to be on topic and on one of those sleepless nights.
I like peaceful nights once in a while and be sitting on the front porch when the sun rises. It's very nice and seems to bring regeneration for me. A sleepless night (as long as it isn't from traumatic situations) seems harmless to me and it would seem the longer I stay up the more the mind like... sees things from different perspective or some shit like dat.
These days sleep is no issue so I do stay up ~3 4 times a year. I get a bit jacked when the sun rises... oh yeah I said that. But it lasts through the rest of the day and then sleep like a baby again... this sleep is soooooooo good IMO.
Scientifically speaking IDK. Never did the research as I am more interested in using drugs, staying alive and sharing how I do so. BL really is my "thing" now. It has made a huge impact on my life @Cream Gravy? and this does in fact carry over into the real world. This site is IRL as well in my sight. The people here are not some run of the mill know it alls... we are real and communicate real shit; most times. ha
Well I have a project going and a coupla pics to post so exiting.

If ya do like stayin up once in a while keeping eyes closed or using eye drops to help from drying and gritty feeling eyes. Just my experience.
Waitin on the sun..........................
Ptah