what would happen if you ingested noribogaine?

[csrpj]

i imagine noribogaine consumption can make for a potentially very therapeutic tool. given, with enough effort, today's possibility of sourcing it an an isolated chemical - has anybody tried this or know of any other reports?

 

[sekio]

I bet you it would be active, but somewhat less than ibogaine due to increased polarity from removal of the OMe group. (c.f. 5-MeO-DMT versus bufotenin/5-HO-DMT)

Noribogaine is not really a principal component of iboga root, so you would probably need to do a semi-synthesis from ibogaine to get any sort of quantities of it. That's probably why it is not as documented as ibogaine is.

If you are interested in iboga-related alkaloids, vocagana africana has some interesting ones...

 

[Solipsis]

If ketamine is any example: norketamine is active, but less so than ketamine, and it has a larger bodyload than ketamine.

Not sure if that is because the removal of such N-substitutions renders compounds less able to cross the BBB, making the effects relatively more on the body and less on the mind. Sekio?

 

[csrpj]

I've read about noribogaine as being responsible for the non-psychedelic but strongly anti-depressant and anxiolytic afterglow effect which can last weeks or months. Is this actually the case or just speculation?

 

[Solipsis]

For starters, who is claiming this, and based on what? If you're the one who read it, shouldn't you be the one to expound on it?

 

[RhythmSpring]

^ That's what I heard, too. I think it's just the logical conclusion from the fact that a) noribogaine, what ibogaine is converted to in the body, stays in the body for 1-2 months, and b) After taking Ibogaine there is an afterglow that typically lasts for 1-2 months. That was my experience.


csrpj, I think your question is intriguing. I had basically the same question in my mind, too. But I have a qualm-

My theory is that there is nothing about Ibogaine that gets you high, in the sense of pleasure and joy. It breaks down your walls and is generally unpleasant. But when your body converts the ibogaine into noribogaine, it is analogous, coincidental, one in the same as the mind processing the experience--These harsh truths are transformed into the newfound strength and groundedness that an Ibogaine experience typically brings.

I think this because both the times I have done Iboga, the main trip was divided into 2 parts:
The Dark Period - a slew of difficult, scary (yet educational) experiences, images, etc.
The Light Period - After some kind of moment of crisis, release, and/or vomiting, the experience changes into something quite uplifting, and dare I say, anti-depressant.

My point is that, for the purposes of spiritual healing, it's important to go through the difficulties to get to the other side. Your happiness is earned, and the lessons stay with you. Whereas taking an SSRI, synthetic or nonsynthetic, may make you feel happier, but you have not acquired the wisdom that would have made you happy, naturally, in the first place.

That said, there may be a positive use for noribogaine. I wouldn't be surprised if it were active. And if it were, I would be excited that we have a new powerful medicinal tool on our hands.

 

[Asante]

You shouldnt ingest noribogaine or ibogaine IMHO.

It needs to be the root bark in its natural form, or at the very least a total alkaloids preparation. Its like opium vs morphine, the main alkaloid isnt the whole picture.

 

[Solipsis]

To each their own then, I guess. Because I like morphine (though opium is better IMO), but I like synthetic psilocin better than mushrooms. Similarly my preferences of other synthetics, extracts and entheobotanicals are nuanced and I try to avoid blanket statements.

I know you said 'IMHO' and I do respect that but I say: show me a lot of people getting limited results with isolated alkaloids, show me that it is not personal preference and placebo-like effects facilitating natural products being favored, then we'll (really) talk.

 

[sekio]

Not sure if that is because the removal of such N-substitutions renders compounds less able to cross the BBB, making the effects relatively more on the body and less on the mind. Sekio?

To an extent, maybe, but removing alkyl groups also can change the binding affinity of compounds quite quickly, because you're essentially breaking bits off a molecular 'key'. Norketamine, for instance, is less potent a dissociative than ketamine even without accounting for the difference in polarity.

 

[Solipsis]

Oh right. Thanks that's interesting

 

[Amml]

I've read about noribogaine as being responsible for the non-psychedelic but strongly anti-depressant and anxiolytic afterglow effect which can last weeks or months. Is this actually the case or just speculation?

I know this thread is really old but Noribogaine is a strong SSRI and also binds to opioid receptors more than Ibogaine itself. It's considered that it accumulates in the brain because of the free phenolic group and is set free continuously from fatty tissues (like THC metabolits). But Ibogaine itself is a very very complex substance and works on more than 50 different receptor systems, so I believe it's the combination of the acute effects of Ibogaine together with the long term release of Noribogaine together with some other alkaloids that makes Iboga so special.
When I only want that antidepressant effect I microdose for a few days, which works for me antidepressant mostly for 1-2 months.

 

[swilow]

^It seems like a very long time for a compound with a 2 day half life... But it is of interest to me, particularly in possibly counteracting PAWS from opiates. I wonder if anyone knows anything about this?

 

[Bigazznugz]

Damn why the fuck do they not offer iboganie therapy in the usa. Shit blows. Been on methadone for over a decade (low dose) and i just bet that iboganie is perfect for me. (I respond very well to non tradition psychedelic therapy) been using psychs for almost 20 years sporadically and tgey have deff enlightened me. At least i think.

 

[swilow]

In Australia too

Of course, where will, way.

 

[Xorkoth]

^ That's what I heard, too. I think it's just the logical conclusion from the fact that a) noribogaine, what ibogaine is converted to in the body, stays in the body for 1-2 months, and b) After taking Ibogaine there is an afterglow that typically lasts for 1-2 months. That was my experience.

That was also my experience.

You shouldnt ingest noribogaine or ibogaine IMHO.

It needs to be the root bark in its natural form, or at the very least a total alkaloids preparation. Its like opium vs morphine, the main alkaloid isnt the whole picture.

I tend to agree though to be honest I have not ingested pure ibogaine (well I did, but I ingested a good portion of my dose as the TA extract too). My experience differed from so many of the reports of pure ibogaine HCl. I mean iboga contains various alkaloids besides ibogaine HCl, there's no reason to think that the difference between the total spectrum of alkaloids and one isolated alkaloid would be due to placebo. From wiki: "ibogaine, tabernanthine, coronaridine, voacangine, ibogamine, and harmaline, among others".

^It seems like a very long time for a compound with a 2 day half life... But it is of interest to me, particularly in possibly counteracting PAWS from opiates. I wonder if anyone knows anything about this?

That's how it was for me. It made the process of no longer taking opiates easy because I felt good without them immediately, never went through PAWS.

Seems like there are mixed results in taking iboga for addiction, but it was a miracle for me. I felt amazing and charged for quite a long time afterwards. Other than a few moments, the whole experience was pretty relaxing, I felt comfortable and even quite good, when I was aware of my body. I read about a lot of people taking pure ibogaine HCl feeling uncomfortable during the experience and then feeling really exhausted and low-energy afterwards, for me it was the opposite. I felt amazing right afterwards, didn't need much sleep for a while, started working out within days (that was one thing I really learned from iboga, was that I needed to take better care of myself). I took the TA extract as I mentioned, I feel like it was the difference. Though as I said, I have no other experience to compare it to.

 

[Solipsis]

^It seems like a very long time for a compound with a 2 day half life... But it is of interest to me, particularly in possibly counteracting PAWS from opiates. I wonder if anyone knows anything about this?

Don't forget that ketamine (dihydroxynorketamine primarily) also had AD effects that extend well beyond it's half-life. I wonder if it is again mTor related with ibogaine, low dose potential as AD sounds very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-SqQDPGW2k

 

[Amml]

Noribogaine works as a potent SSRI and Ibogaine itself has a long lasting effect far beyond the half-life on GDNF expression, which highers dopamine levels and "strengthens" the dopaminergic and motoric system.
The dopamine issue is a positive loop, that means the ibogaine activates the gene expression that leads to higher GDNF levels and therefore higher dopamine, and the dopamine activates the expression of more GDNF, and so on. For sure this is not infinite, but the GDNF levels stay higher for several months after a higher dose of Iboga. That is also the reason why there is research on Ibogaine microdosing for Parkinson's (PD). It (GDNF) protects motoric neurons and promotes their sprouting, so the not destroyed neurons in PD patients can take over the function of the destroyed ones. It's considered that stem cell treatment works in a similar way in PD, because stem cells release huge amounts of neurotrophic factors and therefore promote the function of the remaining neurons.

Also some effects may result because of the NMDA-antagonism of both compounds, KOR-activation of mostly noribogaine (highers BDNF levels) and somehow the Acetylcholine receptor blockade gives you this rebirth feeling.
But you can't say what really happens when you take a substance that influences over 50 receptor, hormone and neurotransmitter systems. A few mechanisms of actions are known, but it's still not clean what happens to the brain when so many systems are influenced.