Variable effects from Vyvanse Use

[GabrielTeixeira]

Hello guys,

I'm new in this forum, so, I'm sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong place.

I really want help in understanding WTF is happening with my body when I take Vyvanse. It just doesn't make sense.

So, I'm diagnosed with Depression and ADD. For those conditions I was prescribed Venlafaxine (75 mg) and Vyvanse (70 mg).

Venlafaxine has been very effective in treating my depression, I've used it for 3 years and only recently I decided to stop it, since I was feeling it was losing its effectiveness. So, I started taking SAMe (400mg, twice a day) with a combination of the following B-vitamins: B1 (100mg), B6 (100mg) and B12 (5.000 mg). This stack has been wonderful for my depression, even more so than Venlafaxine.

The problem is that I still have an attention issue that I need to resolve. And, for that matter, I've been taking Vyvanse, which is always extremely effective at improving my attention but has made feel very bad sometimes.

So, there are days that I take Vyvanse and it works like magic, without any bad side effects.
But, there are also days that I take it and I feel extremely depressed, demotivated, apathic or even suicidal.

Those side effects appear to be totally random, as it can make me feel good in one day, make me feel bad in another day, terrible during two days, good again, etc... It can even vary during a single day, making me feel awesome during the morning, terrible in the afternoon, good again at night. Interestingly, in the bad days, it seems eating certain foods is able to improve / worsen my mental state. The same Orange Juice, for example, has made feel better and a lot worse on different occasions. Isn't that weird?

It's important to state that I've never been diagnosed as bipolar, nor do I think I am

I made a series of self-experiments in other to get it to work correctly, but unfortunately I could not find a formula. The following are the things I tried but ultimately had no correlation in Vyvanse bad side effects disappearing / reappearing:

* Sleeping more hours

* Exercising regularly

* Eating a healthier diet

* Eating a large breakfast

* Drinking more water

* Taking it with food or in an empty stomach

* Taking Lithium

* Taking the following supplements (separetely or in conjunction with one another): Magnesium, Whey Protein (sometimes, made me feel worse), Zinc (sometimes, made feel worse), Vitamin C (sometimes, made feel worse), Creatine, Fish Oil (sometimes, made feel slightly better), Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Vitamin B2, Methylfolate (felt depressed and got a headache that lasted 3 days), Sodium Bicarbonate (sometimes, made feel slightly better), Melatonin (made me feel worse), Milk Thistle, Choline, Trimethylglicine, Methionine, Ashwagandha, Garlic (saves me from feeling extremely bad to just bad, doesn't prevent bad side effects though).

So, could you guys please help me understading why this is happening with me? It's just so counterintuitive, and I wish I could always get the good effects from Vyvanse, because it helps me a lot in the good days.

Sincerely,

Gabriel

 

[GabrielTeixeira]

Do you guys think those "vyvanse induced" depressive symptoms could be due to activation of neuronal potassium channels? I came up with this possibility because both Zinc and Whey Protein (wich contains arginine) made feel worse and both of them seem to exert this effect, and since potassium channel blockers appear to have anti-depressant effects, maybe excessive (?) activation of those channels could lead to depressive symptoms. By this logic, Agmatine would be helpful. I've already ordered some and I'll report about its effects in the future.

Below are some excerpts from examine.com articles that made me think about this possibility:

"Zinc may also activate neuronal potassium channels and reduce glutamate release into the synapse"


"By itself, agmatine has been noted to have antidepressant effects with moderate dosages and these antidepressant effects have been confirmed following oral ingestion into rats
The antidepressant effects are abolished by L-arginine, yohimbine (α2A receptor blocker), and GMP itself; another study noted that potassium channel inhibitors (which appears to be the mechanism that agmatine works via) are inhibtied by PDE5 inhibitors such as Viagra. Blocking either the 5-HT1A, 5-HT1B, 5-HT2A, or 5-HT2C serotonin receptors blocks the effects as does blocking the delta and mu subunits of opioid receptors (but not kappa) and opening potassium channels appears to prevent the effects of agmatine."

"The effects are not affected by prazosin (an α1A receptor blocker), serotonin depletion, blocking the beta-adrenergic system (propanolol), or 5-HT3 receptors.
The anti-depressant effects of agmatine appear to be via augmenting other agents. While agmatine itself cannot inhibit potassium channels, it (somehow) increases the ability of other agents to inhibit potassium channels which adds to their antidepressant effects. This synergism requires that signalling through serotonin receptors is preserved (which the active molecules likely signal through) and that signalling through the α2A receptors is preserved (which agmatine likely signals through)"

"One pilot study in human subjects with depression (major depressive disorder and unipolar/bipolar distinctions) and no antidepressant resistance who were given 2-3g agmatine orally without any other pharmaceutical drug noted that the three tested subjects all reported remission of depression which was not reversed by administration of PCPA; suggesting that similar to animal studies agmatine's antidepressive effects are unrelated to serotonin."

 

[sekio]

Venlafaxine has been very effective in treating my depression, I've used it for 3 years and only recently I decided to stop it, since I was feeling it was losing its effectiveness.

Did you talk to your doctor about this?

Just because it seems to be losing its efficacy doesn't mean that discontinuing it is a smart plan... remember that if the medication doesn't seem to be doing too much and your mood/life is within normal tolerances, the medication is actually working just as it is intended.

Discontinuing a SNRI without any sort of taper or discussion with your doctor will do nothing but exacerabte any existing mood disorders you might have, plus you have to deal with all the fun of SNRI withdrawal symptoms. It's unreasonable to expect that you can just stop taking them after 3 years and have everything all sunshine and roses.

You should get back on the SNRI and then maybe the Vyvanase will have a better effect. Vyvanase can only stimulate a brain that's functioning mostly normally, if you're an emotional wreck or living in a fog then Vyvanase won't do anything but make you more manic-depressive.

The fact remains that nobody will get 100% "positive" side effects from amphetamine or its relatives if they are using them chronically, either. The euphoric, hyperfocusing, "magical" aspect of the drug stops working pretty quickly, and unless you learn to treat it as the stimulating drug that it is, you'll be disappointed. Set and setting still apply to stimulants, if you feel like shit then taking amphetamine will just make you feel like shit but have a lot of energy to be frustrated with!

 

[GabrielTeixeira]

Sekio, thanks for the reply, it was definitely very informative for me.

Unfortunately, I didn't talk to my doctor about discontinuing venlafaxine. I definitely would if he wasn't on vocation.

So, Venlafaxine could keep me away from feeling depressed everytime I wasn't on Vyvanse. But the depression I sometimes felt when taking Vyvanse was extreme. It was a lot worse than the depression that made me seek for medical help in the first place. So I though: "If such a potent anti-depressant is allowing those kind of feelings to occur, it's not doing its job properly."

Then I decided to stop taking Venlafaxine and start taking SAMe, which is also a very effective antidepressant. I had some bursts of extreme depression in the first two days, but they didn't last more than 20 minutes. Occasional vertigo was also present in the first two weeks of discontinuation, but it didn't bother me too much.

Right now, I don't feel depressed at all, as long as I don't take Vyvanse and get a bad reaction. I also noticed after starting SAMe that I'm getting more of those "good Vyvanse days".
I do not expect Vyvanse to have this magical effect on me. I just don't think it's normal if it makes my mood a lot worse than it was before taking it.

The reason why I haven't already stopped taking Vyvanse it's because there are days it works very well, and I've always thought I could figure out a way I would never feel those terrible depressive symptoms that sometimes comes with it. That is probably a not very smart line of thought.

 

[sekio]

SAMe is not considered effective for depression the same way that SNRIs are, in fact here's a review that shows it's not any better than placebo.
S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe) for depression in adults - http://sci-hub.bz/10.1002/14651858.CD011286.pub2

There was no strong evidence of a difference in terms of change in depressive symptoms from baseline to end of treatment between SAMe and placebo as monotherapy

Even if SAMe was efffective as an antidepressant, it does not act the same way as a SNRI and does not substitute for SNRI so taking it won't really ease the mental disruption of venlafaxine w/d.

Please, talk to your doctor before making medication changes of your own accord. I know it's your body and you can do as you please but people recommend you don't discontinue SNRI drugs suddenly for good reasons. They do work for depression in a significant percentage of people... if you find that venlafaxine doesn't do the trick maybe you need to try different ones/differing doses instead.

And if you find the side effects are REALLY troubling, like you want to hurt yourself or others or do something reckless, then go to a hospital and have them see what they can do if you xan't get a hold of your doctor. Just stopping your meds outright without any medical people being informed and saying it's OK can make the situation much worse.

Due to it being, at its heart, amphetamine (speed), Vyvanase will result in a crash almost every time you take it, especially if you're taking more than a trivial dose (30mg?). Keep that in mind: there's no separating the good effects from the crash, you need to stay hydrated and well-fed and try to relax through the comedown rather than tweaking out too much. Avoid caffeine and nicotine if possible.

 

[d1nach]

I agree with seiko same is most definitely not a subsitute for effexor. I take effexor and lithium for depression everyday when i tried self treating with SAMe and vitamins and minerals and stuff it didnt work for me and i attempted suicide and had a tube in my stomach lungs and up my penis and was in icu for days or weeks and has to learn to walk again.

SAMe might help people with mild depressed mood but if you got a life threatening illness you wouldnt get your cure from a vitamin store.

 

[sekio]

If you still want to keep taking SAMe, there's no reason you can't take it alongside your Effexor.