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Treatment process for Kratom

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rock1970

Bluelighter
Joined
Dec 21, 2022
Messages
77
Hello,

I hope everyone is well. What is the general process taking place in treatment centers or hospitals, for Kratom addiction? Are they using methadone, suboxone for medication treatment? I know it's trading one drug for another, and I am ashamed to even ask, but I am very afraid of being overwhelmed during the treatment in the early stages. I know I am trying to run my own treatment, which is weak but fear has me truly cornered. Please share stories of those who have experienced treatment for Kratom addiction, either Inpatient or out patient. Thank you and sorry to ask this. I just need an idea. I'm afraid they will make things worse if I go.
 
That is a legitimate fear. using subs or methadone to treat a kratom addiction is like using a flamethrower to trim the hedges.
Kratom is very titrable.
Find your stable dose for a day -- and the next day drop 10%, do that until you are not comfortable then stay at the new dose until you are, then begin again.
Tapering your way out of Kratom with Kratom is BY FAR the better HR option than switching to bupe or methadone.
black seed oil and ultra low dose naltrexone will also help if you can access them.
 
I recently went to an emergency department for severe alcohol withdrawal. I mentioned to the nurse that I was also taking kratom. She had never even heard of it (it's been sold over the counter here for at least 10 years).

When I checked into a detox unit the intake people had heard of it but knew nothing about it. Same with my counselor in rehab-- she'd heard of it but didn't even know it was available in this area.

I was astounded. I've known many opioid addicts who used kratom as a substitute in a pinch. Others, like me, used it get off their DOC (oxycodone in my case). The ignorance among medical professionals is baffling and utterly unacceptable.

In my case, I'd compare severe kratom WD to coming off a moderate methadone habit. I felt tired, achy, and icky (kinda like a mild flu) for over 4 weeks. Also averaged 2 to 3 hrs of sleep per night. But it wasn't totally debilitating. I could function. If I had to do it again, I'd still do it without other meds. But I'd definitely taper first.
 
I think one shouldn't use (powerful) opioids like methadone to withdraw from kratom. Super high dose habits might be an exception, as are people who are very efficient at metabolizing the main ingredient mitragynine into 7-hydroxy-mitragynine but these are the exceptions. Pregabalin + tapering should do it for most.

As a side note, these addiction docs are sometimes wrong about substances they don't know much about. I was proposed methadone to get off dextromethorphan, which is structurally similar to opiates but has negligible affinity for mu receptors. And opioids don't stop cravings for it either (I eventually gave in and tried opioid maintenance for disso addiction because I was desperate for getting something legally on prescription).
 
rock1970 said:
Hello,

I hope everyone is well. What is the general process taking place in treatment centers or hospitals, for Kratom addiction? Are they using methadone, suboxone for medication treatment? I know it's trading one drug for another, and I am ashamed to even ask, but I am very afraid of being overwhelmed during the treatment in the early stages. I know I am trying to run my own treatment, which is weak but fear has me truly cornered. Please share stories of those who have experienced treatment for Kratom addiction, either Inpatient or out patient. Thank you and sorry to ask this. I just need an idea. I'm afraid they will make things worse if I go.
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It’s not weak as you put it. I’m not a fan of maintenance protocols for any opioid addiction personally. I don’t judge anyone at all though. It doesn’t make one weak to go on long term maintenance. I just don’t think it’s the best option.

Now you seem to only be interested in it to get you off kratom dependency which is easy to titrate off yourself from a biological standpoint BUT I think I’m some ways it’s harder in the sense that it is so easily accessible so if you are having irresistible cravings it could be challenging in the sense that it’s so easily accessible much like how alcohol is hard to quit not only because it’s a hard drug (different from kratom in that sense) but because it’s so easily accessible and advertised everywhere.

I say all this to say that yes treating kratom dependence with suboxone or methadone is like using a flamethrower as someone put it but it can be useful if only used to taper off the kratom and then stay off and avoid cravings and withdrawal. It can help you because methadone isn’t euphoric in my experience. It’s a potent analgesic but not great recreationally. Suboxone will get you high the first few days or so but after that it shouldn’t. So I’m saying if used short term until you can establish life without getting high on an opioid can be beneficial IF you can’t do it on your own by decreasing your dose of kratom and stepping off.

The only weak approach is no approach (not trying to get off/giving up). Although I do sympathize with those as well. Addiction is very powerful but you can do it.

You just don’t want to go on long term suboxone maintenance or methadone maintenance because that opens up other cans of worms. So I’d say if you go the suboxone route or methadone route find a doctor that believes in short term medication assisted treatment m.
 
Juicewrldfan said:
It’s not weak as you put it. I’m not a fan of maintenance protocols for any opioid addiction personally. I don’t judge anyone at all though. It doesn’t make one weak to go on long term maintenance. I just don’t think it’s the best option.

Now you seem to only be interested in it to get you off kratom dependency which is easy to titrate off yourself from a biological standpoint BUT I think I’m some ways it’s harder in the sense that it is so easily accessible so if you are having irresistible cravings it could be challenging in the sense that it’s so easily accessible much like how alcohol is hard to quit not only because it’s a hard drug (different from kratom in that sense) but because it’s so easily accessible and advertised everywhere.

I say all this to say that yes treating kratom dependence with suboxone or methadone is like using a flamethrower as someone put it but it can be useful if only used to taper off the kratom and then stay off and avoid cravings and withdrawal. It can help you because methadone isn’t euphoric in my experience. It’s a potent analgesic but not great recreationally. Suboxone will get you high the first few days or so but after that it shouldn’t. So I’m saying if used short term until you can establish life without getting high on an opioid can be beneficial IF you can’t do it on your own by decreasing your dose of kratom and stepping off.

The only weak approach is no approach (not trying to get off/giving up). Although I do sympathize with those as well. Addiction is very powerful but you can do it.

You just don’t want to go on long term suboxone maintenance or methadone maintenance because that opens up other cans of worms. So I’d say if you go the suboxone route or methadone route find a doctor that believes in short term medication assisted treatment m.
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Thank you so very much. The support here and the words, coupled with shared experiences help to understand things more. Its inspiring to say the least. I truly hope you are well my friend. I am going to truly try to go the taper route.
 
rock1970 said:
fear has me truly cornered
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That fear and anxiety will be your worst enemy during a cessation plan.
Some have it worse than others when quitting kratom and I personally feel it may have to do with dosage.
I find it (kratom) to be a very forgiving substance to taper and quit from the few times I let it go.
Can I ask about your usage (how many grams and how many times a day? )
I would def opt for the taper instead of swapping to a more potent opioid for this issue but we all have our own experiences with each substance and this may not apply to your situation, IDK.
 
Lil'LinaptkSix said:
That fear and anxiety will be your worst enemy during a cessation plan.
Some have it worse than others when quitting kratom and I personally feel it may have to do with dosage.
I find it (kratom) to be a very forgiving substance to taper and quit from the few times I let it go.
Can I ask about your usage (how many grams and how many times a day? )
I would def opt for the taper instead of swapping to a more potent opioid for this issue but we all have our own experiences with each substance and this may not apply to your situation, IDK.
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Thank you. Yes, the fear and anxiety are what I am afraid of. I am at 45 to 50 g per day. Thank you for asking.
 
Lil'LinaptkSix said:
That fear and anxiety will be your worst enemy during a cessation plan.
Some have it worse than others when quitting kratom and I personally feel it may have to do with dosage.
I find it (kratom) to be a very forgiving substance to taper and quit from the few times I let it go.
Can I ask about your usage (how many grams and how many times a day? )
I would def opt for the taper instead of swapping to a more potent opioid for this issue but we all have our own experiences with each substance and this may not apply to your situation, IDK.
Click to expand...
Oh, and I take it throughout the day. Not on any type of dosage schedule. Just a gram at a time, throughout the day.
 
plumbus-nine said:
I think one shouldn't use (powerful) opioids like methadone to withdraw from kratom.. Pregabalin + tapering should do it for most.
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Agreed. From reading posts here some people really struggle with taking kratom every few hours and are constantly in withdrawal. For those people I think something stronger can help if it is balance that is needed. But I can name a few people that went on bupe for kratom that had kicked kratom without it in the past and thought it would be easier to stop bupe. Now they wish they never had.

I think if someone is going to use another opiate to get kratom then maybe ONE dose of bupe or a small dose of methadone ONCE and then gabapentin or pregabalin.the following days.

I am ready to drop from 25 gr to 15gr. I was on about 40 and that was sort of brutal. Lesser amounts much more manageable.

And yes fear and dread of anticipation is worse than the actual withdrawal.

I thnk Cdin said it. Lower your amount 10% ever few days until uncomforable. Then stay there until comfortable and continue down. Spacing doses further apart helps too. I am one of the lucky ones that finds kratom forgiving. But I see some people do struggle and their decision to use something stronger is personal.
 
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rock1970 said:
Thank you. Yes, the fear and anxiety are what I am afraid of. I am at 45 to 50 g per day. Thank you for asking.
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45 to 50 grams per day is a relatively high dosage and about what I was taking when my use was at its heaviest.

It's not the biggest amount I've heard of, though. I've talked to people who were taking over 100g per day. THAT is a LOT.

Kratom withdrawal is unpleasant but it's nothing like that of true opiates. Recently I was taking about 35g a day and stopped abruptly. I never got violently ill or anything like that. It was a lot like quitting methadone: body aches, fatigue, insomnia, a generalized yucky feeling that lasted about a month (with symptoms gradually easing). It was no fun but I could still function. I probably wouldn't be able to do heavy manual labor but I could walk and talk and eat, etc. The lack of sleep was the worst part for me. First couple weeks I was only getting 2 to 3 hrs of sleep per night. Melatonin helps a little.
 
I personally remember that the fear of quiting kratom and facing the ensuing withdrawals was arguably worse than the w/ds themselves, in my case. (And I suspect in many other cases in people prone to anxiety)

This fear trapped me into a kratom habit several times. This was back in the day when you could get proper euphoric and energising kratom easily in the UK.

Things eventually got to the stage where I was no longer getting any positive effects from kratom, and was using only out of fear of w/ds.

I eventually did quit and the w/ds really weren't that bad at all. Mainly feeling unwell and having very low physical energy and low mood. But not being bed bound or anything that bad. The worst was probably over in a week, although it probably took a few weeks to recover properly.

Flu remedies, Pregabalin and benzos helped. And modafinil to help with the low energy.

I've been through several cycles like that with Kratom. And currently have to be careful of doing the whole thing all over again. The difference this time is that the available kratom and the positive effects are a lot weaker, meaning the w/ds are more or less non-existent and purely psychological.

I definitely would not switch to any opiate maintenance drugs to quit kratom. That's definitely going in the wrong direction, and replacing a lesser habit with a stronger one, in the pecking order of the strength of physical addictions.
 
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rock1970 said:
I am at 45 to 50 g per day
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rock1970 said:
Just a gram at a time, throughout the day.
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Thanks for the info, friend.
I am probably wrong but it seems that your dependence on kratom may have become more of a habit than addiction.
Could you maybe try dosing 4g like 4x a day? I know this is asking a lot but the higher individual doses at an ultimately drastic overall intake may surprise you. It may also not help at all but if you really want to get off of this it is going to take exercising a lot of self control anyway... as with any substance that makes us "feel" better. Compulsive dosing throughout the day I understand with many drugs so not in any judgemental way that I reply to your posting(s). I just think you will get more from a rigid scheduled dosing regimen for dropping overall intake, getting what is needed from the drug and the exercise in controlling the compulsion to dose so many times... thats like a gram every 15 minutes if my general math is anywhere close to being correct.
Let us know what you think about this if you will.
Again... this is just a suggestion from some rando on the internet obviously there is no pressure to comply. It could be a start to your reaching the goal you want to reach, though.
Best wishes,
Peace
 
Still trying and currently tapering. I was seeming to be doing ok for a few days, then started having dizziness and slowed/skipping heartbeat! Almost called 911. Settled down that night but dizziness and heart come and go. I'm just really scared more now, mostly due to heart obviously, and not being able to figure it out. I am tonight trying a different approach. Going to try dosing only when I feel the true need. I was still just dosing on the hour or so, not much accuracy but always less than 2 hours between,even when I felt normal so I am not sure what to do. I feel ok in the morning and after my first dose or two,then beginning with about the 3rd dose anxiety and dizziness start. Going to try an as needed approach. I will report back. By the way, I had somehow cut my intake down to 20g per day. So maybe I just went too fast? I'm am just truly all over the board mentally hoping and praying a dose after the 2nd of the day will resulting the normal feeling of good. Damn, I like many have said, wish I had never touched it. Thank you all for your help and thoughts on my situation.
 
hey rock1970, I'm on day 6 of zero kratom after years of (more or less) daily use. Not the first withdrawal I went through (not only with kratom). I know the anxieties your facing very well. From your last post I would guess that you went too fast.
I first reduced my daily intake to around 25g so I wouldn't feel any positive or negative effect on that level. At this point in time I pressed all my kratom left in capsules and documented each intake meticulously (date, time, amount of capsules). Find a single dose that does it for you. I always tried to wait with the next dose until I felt too unpleasant or not capable of a situation. After a few days a pattern in my notes became clear, like single doses and timeframe. I.e. 6-8 capsules 6 times per day. From that point on I aimed for 10-20% decrease per day, reducing single doses at first and than widening the timespan. If it was too unpleasant I stayed on that level for another day, but overall I was able to reduce my consumption to almost zero within three weeks without any real bad effects.

What I want to point out: Take notes! It was helping me lot to see what I was doing and after a few days in, seeing my progress. I took the capsule-route because I know that I could not trust myself in weighing correctly the amount of powder, without accidentally rewarding me.

(From almost zero to zero is another game, by then you would not only struggle with the goddamn long half-life-time of kratom but with the psychological aspect of your habit as well.)
 
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Boothby has a great point about writing down doses. This same exercise was used in the book "Diary of a Drug Fiend" by Aliester Crowley.
Sorry to the folks that know how much I want to spoil this book(only bc I want to talk to anyone who has read about the actual dosing regimen and how to get clean, well at least the way the book goes about it.)

I find Kratom to be helpful but just gives me absolute GUT ROT after a day or 2 of use..add a pepto and/or imodium and you feel even fuckin weirder. Like bloated but still readily available to shit your pants on command. Yeah I went the codeine route and other time hydrocodone route but this was also bc I am not ready to quit this sick game.
 
Opana313 said:
gives me absolute GUT ROT
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i will not advise going against your gut feeling.

btt: I would, like some others, strongly advise against using other (stronger) substances to get rid of kratom. Personally, I take loperamide in the final phase of tapering off to relieve symptoms and to extend the time between doses, just as I did on the first zero days. It helps against the withdrawal symptoms, but should only be taken in very small daily doses (constipation!). Some CBD or a mild sleeping pill will help you sleep better, but waking up in a state of withdrawal will be inevitable. No benzos, booze or THC...

what scares me a bit about you, rock1970, is the short intervals. it sounds like you're used to constantly dosing yourself up. As far as I know, the active ingredients have an effect profile of a good 24 hours... I would strongly advise you to first find a plateau on which you can function constantly without having to constantly go higher. and to work on the periods first. for example 2 hours first, then 3, then 5, if necessary with steps in between. consider if you are cool with 6 hours, that would mean that you could also sleep 4-6 hours at a time.
this can be done without being severely affected and without having to suffer great fears. if 2 hours seems too long for you at the moment, then increase the single dose or stay with less time. this is a marathon, not a sprint. Don't hold yourself too hard, but start controlling.

I wouldn't give in to the thought that a long-established habit can be broken quickly. Give yourself the time and work on the control, first without reducing at all. And then slowly go down and internalize that there will be no intoxication or effect anymore.
 
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Thank you all. Very helpful and encouraging. I'm afraid to say things for fear of sounding cliché. But I know it's not going to be easy and in order to make a change, I must begin. I will look at the capsule form as that makes logical sense, as far as narrowing down to a more accurate amount for simply amounts. With myself, I must see it decreasing to feel I am making progress. Man, this sucks. I will check in once I have the capsules, and then I will have to figure my baseline for a day. Being able to sleep for 7-8 hours, broken of course but without wd symptoms will tell me personally if I am at the appropriate amount, or close to it. Urination plays a part in my case, so it may take a 3-5 day measure ,to seeif I am at or near my current level. Not sure if that makes sense but I know in my case, it plays a part. I truly want to avoid any type of haphazard approach so I aim to seriously find out my daily, then go from there, incrementally down. Thank you all very much. I will be back.
 
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