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Tramadol and LSD...I utfse...

aspiringchemist

aspiringchemist

Bluelighter
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
463
From a pharmacological standpoint, what is the harm, if any, in using LSD the same day as tramadol?
rather small tramadol doses, ranging from 50mg-150mg daily.

I'm fairly knowledgeable on psychopharmacology. I know tramadol has snri properties, therefore inhibiting the reabsorption of serotonin at the synapse like typical SSRI's.
LSD is not a releaser of serotonin like say MDMA. I'm a bit rusty on lsd pharm. My understanding is that lsd has a higher affinity for selected 5HT sites than serotonin itself. Beyond that, I'm unsure how lsd exerts it's effects.

Wouldn't the only possible contradictions be:
1- just like any SSRI the risk of diminished effects from lsd due to reuptake inhibition
2- possibility of seizure/over stimulation and that would seem to only be during the onset phase of tramadol when it exerts the majority of its serotonin and norepinephrine based effects.

I don't see serotonin syndrome as being a possibility pharmacologically speaking, though I know there are plenty of anecdotal reports stating otherwise.

I should add, very experienced with a myriad of substances, including the two in question. The reason I bring this up is I'm currently on trams for pain (no I can't get anything else...I've tried...battle for another day) and I would like to have a psychedelic experience, been a while.

I know I can wait. But if there is no reason to, why do wait lol
not worried about wasting substances.

Thoughts?
Preferably, experience?
 
I don't think SRI's and SSRI's are necessarily that similar but ok..

It does seem odd, but not "too odd" to take quite seriously.

LSD apparently has an unusual effect on 5-HT2A receptors, activating them chronically. Even if normally this does not lead to increased brain serotonin, there are pretty strange things going on like what you might find with a serotonergic antagonist rather than an agonist. Antagonists bind but relatively speaking don't activate. Since LSD binds so extremely long - my question is still about the activation during that time. Even if it puts the receptors (2A and 2B) in activated state, I think the signal pathways downstream may not simply keep responding like that and may partially stop reponding at which point the activity of LSD is for that part pretty much antagonistic.

Unfortunately that doesn't directly help with your question, in fact it may even inhibit serotonin release, but I am trying to point out that LSD really may not be typical enough to make the kind of generalizations needed to make sense of an interaction like this.

You should really try to find a substitute, it just has to be enough to make the switch safely and know where you're at before doing acid (plus that extra day or so - or 2 - of course helps get the tramadol out of your system), so what is that - a few days?

I don't know of your actual odds of SS but I wouldn't risk it. Experience is good - I have experience with them both, too - but it is no substitute for anything in this matter of course. :)

Just because you (and me) can't figure this out doesn't mean it's not real.

You might want to read the 'effects on receptors' part of this - the analytical segment of this document is pretty interesting anyway:
http://www.maps.org/research-archive/cluster/psilo-lsd/cns-neuroscience+therapeutics_2008-passie.pdf
 
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Shambles suffered full blown SS after an LSD + Tramadol combo, for that reason alone I would advise against mixing the two.

Here's a thread I found: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/553648-serotonin-syndrome-and-LSD

100mg of tramadol with LSD caused Serotonin Syndrome in me. I would strongly advise against it. I am also on a tram script and take up to 400mg a day now but if I want to trip I skip it for 24 hours either side. It's not an ideal solution by any means but SS can be lethal and even if not it was the single most painful, terrifying and horrific experience of my life.
Click to expand...
 
thanks for the replies.
I've read all the anecdotes on BL as well as other forums.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I just haven't come across a fully logical reason for it anywhere, and conflicting reports as well.
Perhaps both substances are too atypical for generalizations.

the experience comment is more to say "I know, to a degree, what I'm in for" not that I'm invincible lol
I've definitely taken too much or had poor interactions and it's not fun to be on that train when you can't stop it. I assume it's even less fun when you die from it, though I wouldn't know.

substitution is possible with kratom but that's all I have access too. The similarity between kratom and tramadol (SNRI speaking) makes me wonder if kratom would have similar poor interactions, yet I see typically positive results from this.

in line with shambles report, I've seen elsewhere that 24 hours post last tramadol dose is sufficient for full lsd experience
 
I don't buy any of the argument that you could basically handle SS as long as it's not lethal, it's just a terrible view from a HR perspective. Plenty of people have described what they thought were mild cases of SS, but that don't even qualify as that, but just as benign serotonergic imbalance. Never mind if it's unpleasant, SS is very unsafe - dangerous. It's the 'runaway' aspect that is tricky, not just the serotonin imbalance.

Not trying to be hard on you, it's just what I would generally say to things that are inherently a bad idea in terms of interactions like certain Diprenyl experiments. Justifications for those to be worth it just can't be taken seriously. Since we don't have the numbers for the exact odds, it is also a futile exercise to discuss all the times when it would not go badly. It's a harm reduction forum so there isn't much place to go into that, it's up to you if you want to have a risk of uncertain odds to trip on acid.

Just talking about the way to look at it, I know you only made a remark.

It's quite a good question to compare to kratom with LSD. It seems difficult to answer this when we are already having difficulties with the topic, but I hope there is something to say on the matter and I hope I can provide anything on it later.
 
I was not saying at all that I could handle SS. I'm not sure where that came from.
I said I've had poor interactions and it is not pleasant and I'm sure dying is even more unpleasant.
the experience comment was referring to LSD and opioids as separate entities, I know what lsd is like and I know what tramadol is like. This of course doesn't justify the safety of concurrent use.
I operate under HR always-please refer to all my posts on this forum.

can you go ahead and delete this thread please?
I'm obviously not expressing myself correctly
 
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I would if you'd like to but I'd much rather edit out what makes uncomfortable, would that previous post be enough? I don't censor this forum unless guidelines are seriously violated, but since the thread was useful before, it was obviously ruined by my overreaction. It's not meant to overshadow the discussion even if it overshadowed most of that post.

Just continue this thread if you want and I'll stick to adding either something informative, inconcealable or just nothing.
 
The problems I had with Tramadol and psychedelics in general is that the psychedelics are somewhat dulled by it. I try to avoid all opioids prior to tripping if I can manage it.
 
I simply don't want to be perceived as not promoting harm reduction in this community and I feel that is what your post implies. I'm not sure how that came across, and I am genuinely curious because that wasn't my intention. I'm not the best communicator always. You can choose to edit your post if you feel compelled, though you're entitled to your opinion obviously :)

I'm not arguing that the combo is safe, nor that I'd risk uncertain odds to trip. I'm just trying to have a conversation about the possible psychopharmacological interaction. And I find it interesting that the interaction seems to exist, yet we cannot pinpoint what is occurring.
you can leave it open
 
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Yea a lot of my response is my own inference. Not sure what came over me. I am just one of many in this community and they are just beginning to speak up.

Post it if you want to forward this to the NSP forum which covers pharmacology in general which may very well be the genre of this topic in general, they get this kind of shit covered there 24-7 but it's more of a technical discussion then, somewhat unavoidably... The alternative is a more personal discussion [maybe we don't know the answer but we'll let you know how we experience the multiverse yet damnit]
 
Thank you Solipsis
I'll check out the NSP forum.

I definitely want to hear about people's individual, subjective experiences as they are another piece of the puzzle.
 
How does tramadol and LSD cause serotonin syndrome? LSD has no affinity for SERT and is not a serotonin releasing agent.

I mean, I'm not denying that Shambles had a bad time on tramadol, but... after taking only 50mg, and 50mg much earlier in the day? So he'd have less than 100mg of tramadol kicking around in his system, well below the seizure warnign level too.

Maybe it just has some strange idiosyncratic effects with LSD after all, or perhaps it's a subconcious response? I'm just curious what made such a low dose of both drugs cause SS!
 
sekio-

if I'm not mistaken, I've seen you participate in other threads regarding this subject.

do you have any personal experience with this?
 
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