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Tramadol and interruption of stage 4 Sleep

M

Mureceptor

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2022
Messages
76
Greetings,

I have been bodybuilding and doing Martial arts my whole life (more than 46 years) and I am nearly 60. I live with a great deal of physical pain, but will not give up training. I have severe plantar fasciitis in my feet, fairly advanced arthritis in my hips (will probably need hip replacement soon) a shoulder that will need replacing and another shoulder that needs surgery. Oh, I have very painful tendonitis in my glutei hamstring tie in. Although a recovering alcoholic, I have 32 years of sobriety and have absolutely never had any problems with Opiods or Kratom. HoweverI have seen the terrible impact of opioids (killed my bestie, a world level Powerlifter) so believe me I am careful in using them. I have used opioids after my many surgeries and simply took what was prescribed as prescribed and never had any problems whatsoever.

I will likely see a rheumatologist or other specialist soon. While I hold a PhD I do not trust most doctors.....they don't start out as bad people (the system makes them bad) but in the meantime I have a large supply of Kratom and Tramadol. However, I am super careful with Kratom...I use it about 4 times a week. Kratom work great for me, but I am paranoid of getting addicted, and thus do not take it everyday. Honestly, I get sick of it pretty quickly but believe that others have had problems with it.

What I would like to do is take Tramadol a few days a week, but I find that it disrupts my sleep greatly. I don't get high from it, I just get excellent pain relief, plain and simple. But the next day...and I only take 1 100 mg pill, I am always tired, even if I get 8 hours sleep. Is there any way of dealing with Tramadol's negative impact upon sleep?

Thank you in advance for your answer.
 
Tramadol is a decently strong SNRI. I am pretty sensitive to drugs with those effects (therapeutic doses of dxm give me insomnia if taken before bed without an antihistamine to sedate me). Possibly using an alpha 2 adrenergic agonist such as clonidine or tizanidine could reduce the levels of norepinephrine release. I would keep doses of both low, as it will increase the sedative effects of the tramadol, but I have noticed less potentiation of kratom with 4 ng tizanidine than I have with 0.5 mg clonazepam. It feels less hedonistic than mixing with benzos as well.

Also, addiction to kratom and tramadol are both through long term agonism of mu opioid receptors. I am unsure of how much (if at any) switching drugs will starve off addiction/dependence.
 
Interesting....so taking Kratom 3-4 days a week, and then Tramadol 3-4 days a week will cause an opiod type addiction. It is starting to sound like I should not use Tramadol at all, then, only if I am in extreme pain. My pain is about a 7...of course I have had my face smashed in and legs broken and still continued fighting in MMA and grappling competitions, so I have a pretty high tolerance for pain. The problem is constant pain...it gets old. My hip arthritis is so bad I now limp.

However, it seems then that I should just use Kratom 3-4 days a week...and I only use it at night, and just tough out the other days/nights. I just deal with the pain during the day and only seek relief at night a couple of hours before going to bed. I also have Valium, but am VERY paranoid about using it, I use it about twice a week in small doses (half or 1 tab). Using valium to offset the sleep problem of Tramadol sounds like a bad idea. I ask because I have a pretty much unlimited supply to all the above drugs.

Based upon your post, probably the only real relief I am going to get is through full joint replacement. I've never had any problems with opioids...but I want to keep it that way. I probably need to see a rheumatologist, although I have little trust and or faith in doctors. I used to teach health are policy. Doctors start off as good people, but many, many (most) end up more concerned about their license and ability to make money than my pain. The system is brutal upon doctors and makes them that way. After my last surgery my doc only gave me a bout a third of the meds I needed. Contrast this with my shoulder and facial reconstruction surgeries years ago before the "opiod crisis". Back then I was given what I needed and took what was prescribed as prescribed and had no problems.
 
Oh...it should be noted that I take Buspar and Wellbuterin. Wellbuterin did little for me, but Buspar was a Godsend. I know Tramadol and Wellbuterin can create serious problems. However, I have taken 1 100 mg Tramadol along with my Wellbuterin and had no problem whatsoever...except poor sleep.

It is sounding more and more like Tramadol is simply a bad idea for me.
 
Mureceptor said:
Oh...it should be noted that I take Buspar and Wellbuterin. Wellbuterin did little for me, but Buspar was a Godsend. I know Tramadol and Wellbuterin can create serious problems. However, I have taken 1 100 mg Tramadol along with my Wellbuterin and had no problem whatsoever...except poor sleep.

It is sounding more and more like Tramadol is simply a bad idea for me.
Click to expand...
I would definately avoid tramadol and wellbutrin together. That interaction scares me more than respiratory depression, as it is harder to gauge ones likeliehood of seizure than it is to notice breathing is slowed down.

I commend your channeling your fear of addiction into moderating use. Even with exercise, the muscle that is moderation does tend to atrophy. Try and maintain utmost vigilence for when patterns of use accelerate, and have an earnest conversation with yourself when they do.
 
Yeah. Thank you for the advice. It sounds like Tramadol is a non starter, reserved for when I have some really serious pain. Now what to do with the 3 bottles, LOL. I also have medical grade marijuana and delta 8 products...I actually was a rep for a Delta 8 company. I trained the owner and then he hired me to move his CDB products into the Dojos and gyms. When I was very young I was a pot head, but nowadays it gives me anxiety. I found that just taking 3 or 4 puffs at night did give me some pain relief. However my wife and I caught our teenaged son (a multi sport high school superstar) smoking marijuana, so in support of him I stopped smoking altogether. It was strange but it was incredibly easy to stop smoking, I was a bit shocked at how easy it was. I have a product that is high in CDB and very low in THC (you need a little to activate the pain relief factor of CDB) which I might go back to using. I discussed this with my wife and she is on board.

Tonight I took Tylenol. I tend to avoid Tylenol as it is Kidney toxic, but it seems that is the only wise choice. Since I never have had any opiod addiction, will it be safe to use Kratom 3-4 days a week? I don't use it during the day...I just deal with the pain. Actually, when I am training (1.5 hours a day) my pain is less, but it comes back with a vengeance later in the evening.

In any event, thank you for your thoughtful replies.
 
If I recall correctly, Tylenol is primarily hepatoxic. It forms a reactive metabolite (NAPQI) subsequent to metabolism by various cytochrome p450 enzymes, which damages the liver cells it is formed in.

NSAIDs on the other hand are primarily nephrotoxic and this effect is due to their mechanism of action. They reduce bloodflow to the kidneys by decreasing the production of vasodilatory prostaglandins, which are produced by the same enzymes that produce inflammatory prostaglandins.

Swapping between the two of those drugs, or even combining Tylenol and an NSAID (with a lower dose of each), is good practice.

As for the sustainability of kratom use, I am not sure for how long you will get away with that. I use kratom recreationally, dosing once per session, and i find myself using it sparingly (say once a weekend) for a few weeks to months, then increasing usage until most weeks are a few times a week. I then quit and try to stay off of it for as long as I can until the cycle restarts.

I am unsure quite how generalizable this is to your use-case, as I am primarily using it for pleasure, which likely more quickly becomes passé than analgesia.

I find kratom to produce less dependence (though towards the end of each cycle I do experience some malaise) than full agonist opioids such as poppy seed tea (it's duration helps though as without redosing more of my time is spent with the drug off of my receptors compared to longer lasting drugs such as poppy seeds). I have heard tramadol has a rather bad withdrawal, as you have to contend with a mix of opioid withdrawal and withdrawal from the SNRI antidepressant effects simultaneously.
 
Again, thank you for your thoughtful reply. This discussion has caused a wholesale change in my approach to my situation. I just want to feel good and feel no pain....of course there is a fine line between that desire and the desire to get high. I abused alcohol and also hard drugs many, many years ago. I have not consumed a drop of alcohol in 32 years or touched a hard drug. I was extremely violent on alcohol and come from people who have a history (genetic predisposition) towards violence. I cannot, and hopefully will not ever touch a drop of alcohol. I practice Buddhism and take meds so today I am a peaceful person (although I trained in MMA for 17 years) something I take great pride in.

I told myself that at the age of 55 I would allow myself to smoke pot. I did, and was smoking in the afternoon (before training) and at night. I found that Marijuana/Delta 8 products if used in large amounts gave me anxiety, so I cut back my use to just at night. Then, when my wife and I caught our son using pot/vaping I stopped altogether. It seems clear that marijuana is not very addictive for me at all, I mainly stopped to support my son's stopping. However, the accumulation of damage to my body from many years of extremely hard core training (I competed, especially in bodybuilding many, many times, almost earning a pro card) left me with a body full of pain. Any types of scans on my body show significant damage. You can see all the metal in my face, advanced arthritis in my hips, extensive damage to shoulders etc.

That is where the Kratom and Tramadol came in. At first I thought the claims of Kratom addiction were more lies generated by our government and Pharma industry (they ARE guilty of this sort of behavior) but based upon info I gleaned from this site, and my conversation with you, it seems that Kratom is, indeed, addictive. I have been using it 3-4 times a week for some time now, at night only, but based upon our convo I am going to reduce that frequency. That leads to a follow up question: Since I have proven to be able to put down marijuana/Delta 8 products, should I use them more? I have one product that has high CDB and low THC (7%). Should I rely upon this product for my nightly pain relief? I don't get nearly the pain relief from this product as I do from Kratom, but it is better than nothing. I get no anxiety whatsoever from this product, nor do I get significantly high. Whereas Kratom gives me exceptional relief, CDB/marijuana reduces pain levels about 20%. If I add a NSAID or Tylenol, I get maybe 30% relief, which makes things (barely) bearable.

What path would you recommend? Keep in mind I do live with a very significant amount of pain, and later in the day have difficulty even walking. I am going to see a rheumatologist or possibly a pain doctor, but modern doctors care more about their license and money than patient suffering. The main reason I am going is because I need hip replacement, I don't expect pain relief from a modern doctor.

My question boils down to, should I rely primarily on NSAIDs/TYlenol/CDB/Marijuana for nightly use, or keep my 3-4 day a week Kratom use going?

Thank you.
 
Possibly try and find a middle path. Keep kratom on hand for break through pain, but use orc drugs for more frequent relief.

Also get second opinions. I certainly have biases against kratom (at least I came to them honestly), and maybe there are others who use it for pain and have a different relationship (or they view the addiction as a fair trade off for pain relief).

If you don't get significant downsides from cannabinoids, those are a generally rather safe add on to many treatments.
 
LOL...I was just posting the exact question you pose to other forumites while you made your post. Based upon your advice I was switching from 2 on one off to 3 days a week. But man, my feet are killing me right now (I trained calves an hour ago) and I am about to soak them in hot water. That gives me extremely temporary relief. What is an orc drug?

I actually started using CDB with low dose THC/Delta 8 again last night. I do so late at night so that my son does not know. Unfortunately, CDB/Marijuana does not give a lot of relief, it is just better than nothing. I have started taking NSAIDs, Tylenol although they don't do much. Kratom (and Tramadol) give me outstanding relief, but I have decided to definitely avoid Tramadol. I would love to go back to my 2 on 1 off Kratom program.


Lets see what others have to say. I like this forum because it lacks bias, IMO. The traditional medical establishment....composed quite frankly of what I can only describe as pathological liars claim that if I take Kratom I will get addicted and then immediately die. If I seem to have an unfair opinion of doctors, I studied health care policy in grad school and taught it a bit to undergrads. 80% of the profession is driven by money. On the other hand, most of the Kratom supporters I have reviewed support the 2 on 1 off program. Of course sellers of Kratom are also going to have bias.
 
i need tramadol for my shoulder too but asshole doctors keep checking my history with opiates and wont prescribe. keep telling me take tylenol! wtf does tylenol do, seriously, except damage your liver. how the fuck can i get some tramadol?? i dont get high on it either. it does help depression AND pain too. few people knew this but its like SSRIs but much more potent. again, not getting high, just helps with depression. if i can get some, someone point me in the right direction, ill pay you for any help!!!
 
allone said:
i need tramadol for my shoulder too but asshole doctors keep checking my history with opiates and wont prescribe. keep telling me take tylenol! wtf does tylenol do, seriously, except damage your liver. how the fuck can i get some tramadol?? i dont get high on it either. it does help depression AND pain too. few people knew this but its like SSRIs but much more potent. again, not getting high, just helps with depression. if i can get some, someone point me in the right direction, ill pay you for any help!!!
Click to expand...
Have you tried Kratom? I need a good amount, about 6 grams, but it gives me nearly as much relief as Tramadol and does not affect my sleep quality. Just be careful, especially if you have an opiod history.
 
Mureceptor said:
Have you tried Kratom? I need a good amount, about 6 grams, but it gives me nearly as much relief as Tramadol and does not affect my sleep quality. Just be careful, especially if you have an opiod history.
Click to expand...

i was one of the very few to experience kratom 18 years ago, in the US. It used to make me SO HAPPY! my favorite herb, or even opiate of the time. BUT as time goes, i kind of went separate ways. The quality is lacking now days, I think. I still take it occasionally on and off, but most the time perhaps because of tolerance or bad quality, i dont stick with it too much. I quit it for years when I developed hepatitis because of mixing it with alcohol and drugs. I kind of hate it since then, and hence probably main reason I take it on and off rarely now days. I still cannot get a single thrill out of it tho. Nothing compared to the euphoric amazing high I got 18 years ago, thats for sure!
But Ill will continue too seek tramadol as it does help with my depression and pain the same time! and I kind of tolerate it much better than other opiates for whatever reason.
 
Yes Tramadol does have significant mood altering properties. In one ranking 94% of respondents said it improved depression.
 
well, i knew that already. but the hard part is, how do i get it prescribed?? its a nightmare.
 
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