To juice or not to juice? Permanent positive effects?

[babayetu]

I have two questions.

1. Is there really any point in juicing if one is looking to eventually stay the same forever? I mean can you really use juicing as a short cut to get where you want to be, or is it only for temporarily living beyond your genetic maximum for a short time? Will you just lose everything you gain on a (dry) cycle eventually or does it really offer any permanent benefits? In my thinking, getting "there" faster is a permanent benefit if you can stay "there". I have no intention of being a competitive bodybuilder or becoming super huge, I want to reach a very high level of strength and muscularity and stay there, at which point I'd ideally stop supplementing with anything apart from protein.

2. Can juicing with a strong androgen give me a more masculine appearance, apart from larger muscles and lower fat? Such as a more masculine face. I look a bit androgynous, see below.


The non TL;DR:

I'm finding myself planning my first cycle, but I don't really know why. I've read everything about proper cycles, easy because I'm a biochemistry geek. I also work out a lot, started in my mid twenties, managing to eat properly (6 meals a day, 200g protein, counting all calories, +500kcal etc) and use a bodybuilder's workout schedule for periods lasting months. Unfortunately I also have periods where I hardly work out at all, usually after I have to stop for a week or so for any reason.

Anyway, I'm not looking to juice right now, because I feel I'm not ready at the moment. So these questions are purely theoretical.

I've been checked by an endocrinologist and I have pretty normal test and other values, btw. On the low side but nothing extreme.

As a child and teen, I had a metabolic problem caused by undiagnosed lactose intolerance, which made me extremely skinny and probably stunted my growth somewhat. I'm still 5'10, but my parents and siblings are tall, and I always looked a bit sickly, because I was... I also look like I'm 20 even though I'm past 35, and while I don't look completely androgynous, I have almost no facial or body hair, my chin is on the soft side, etc. Now i don't necessarily look like a hot 20 year old unfortunately, so I can't go pick up college freshmen chicks Just average, and it's ok, but of course having people treat you like you're 20 is a bit of a problem at 35.

I don't have Klinefelter's or anything like that, I think I was just malnourished growing up.

Becoming a gym rat didn't change this. Of course I look much better and feel better, but I still look childish. And I'm anything but mentally, which is an additional problem when meeting with new people; it really seems to take a long time for people to mentally accept that people don't have to be exactly what they look like.

So my thinking is that if I eventually decide to do run a cycle, I'm going to add some proviron or anadrol or other androgenic steroid, for their masculinizing effects (or even DHT if I can find it).

Would it be too late for any of those to have any positive effect on me?

 

[black53]

Ok, this isn't going to make any sense without a quick explanation about muscles and how they grow. Muscles are made from muscle fibers which are long multi-nucleated cells. They are surrounded by satellite cells (and other things not important for this explanation). Lifting causes an increase in locally produced growth factors. This causes two things. First the existing fibers start producing more contractile protein and second satellite cells fuse with existing fibers which makes synthesis of more contractile protein faster (more nuclei = faster synth). When you stop lifting the contractile protein sooner or later (depending on genetics) becomes smaller, but the extra nuclei remain (or are lost much slower). That's also one of the reasons (others being various neurological adaptations) why regaining muscle you already had is faster than gaining it the first time.

Case 1 - you use steroids to reach your genetic max faster then stop but continue lifting

You should be able to keep everything except the water/glycogen increase (the reason why dbol blows you up) from steroids. In fact there is a possibility that your max actually increases slightly because one of the effects of steroids is an increase in satellite cell numbers. Even when the steroids are gone the additional cells remain for either a long time or permanently.

Case 2 - you use steroids to go way above your genetic max then stop but continue lifting

You drop towards your max (either the original or an increased one depending on how true the statement about steroids causing permanent increases in your max) eventually.

Case 3 - you use steroids and stop both the steroids and lifting

Your muscle mass drops (how fast depends on genetics and other physical activity) to it's original level, but regaining it may be faster if you start lifting again.

For your second question.. I'm not sure about the face structure, if the bones have stopped growing then probably not, if you are young enough then it's possible. Body hair is likely to appear or become more noticeable. However even if your facial bone structure is crappy low bf + larger jaw muscles (those also grow) will make you look more manly.

 

[babayetu]

Thanks, and that was a very well written post, but I know about muscle biology. That's why I specified it would be a dry cycle. I was more wondering about people's personal experience. There is a common theme of people 'losing their gains' but perhaps, and even hopefully, most juicers are going beyond their genetic max.

But, so if I'm not aiming beyond my gm, is there any reason for me not to juice even if I haven't reached it? I am as long as I do it properly with PCT and everything. Seeing as I'm not getting any younger.

Regarding facial bones, I've read that over doing HGH tends to grow the frontal bone of the skull, as well as the jaw. Which doesn't really sound too healthy, but is still intriguing. It is also part of the 'natural acromegaly' that comes with old age in males. At least it is certainly not biologically impossible to change your skeletal facial features with hormones.

Does body hair simply grow at a faster speed or do the hairs become more numerous? There seems to be conflicting views online.

 

[black53]

I included the explanation just in case, better to have it and not need it than the other way.

>is there any reason for me not to juice even if I haven't reached it?
If you've been lifting naturally for at least 6 months and know how to do it properly and understand proper nutrition imo no. And most of your gains should be retained with proper pct/nutrition/training.

HGH + AAS might change your bone structure but I'd rather not comment on how much and how because I don't really know. Sorry. AAS alone... I'm really doubtful especially if very long high dose cycles with strong androgens are excluded.

Body hair probably depends in individual genetics, which also explains different views from different people.

 

[WC2]

In my experience (I've done around 8-9 cycles), you tend to change with every cycle. Sometimes for better sometimes for worse.

Yes, sometimes the steroids themselves have a permanent effect on your muscle tissue, but more the the the long lasting effect I truly believe is caused by the habits we form when cycling. For instance, if you eat extremely healthy, work out, and make health your #1 issue, in the long run you'll look better (most likely).

However if you think steroids are a magic pill, and stuff your face with junk, you'll form bad habits (hence why kids think they get FAT when they go off AAS.. in reality they just got irresponsibly obese and the AAS was hiding it temporarily).

Look.. I've heard guys tell me Anavar totally reshaped the definition of their Abs forever. I'm talking about personal trainers who have been in the biz for 30 years. They SWEAR by it. But who really knows what made that change? Was it anavar? Healthy eating? Intense Ab workouts? We'll never know.

 

[regot]

well if you do decide and you want a awesome leaning cycle that will have you cut and swoll and the best you look, granted iv'e kept gains but i defiantly notice a reduction in vein size especially in my shoulders and arms off cycle but my strength remains the same its just workout intensity. and its all in your head i got buddys that come off and complain oh im so weak oh i need more juice oh this hurts that hurts, it gets annoying i except the plunge iv'e taken and i don't complain.


well


here is a good cycle


weeks 1-12 500mg test e shot monday and thursday


weeks 1-12 400-600 if you can hang of masteron E shot the same days as test


weeks 1-12 every other day .5 half a tab of arimidex


weeks 12 -13 continue .5 of arimidex everyday this time.


weeks 14-18 nolvadex (week 1 40mg everyday) (week 2 20mg everyday) (week 3 20mg everyday) and the last 2 weeks at 10mg.


weeks 19-24 10 pumps of formestane 2x a day


DIET IS EVERYTHING!

not sure about picking up college chicks but say hello to a crazy libido and the ability to fuck like your 20 again with masteron.

 

[DOB]

when I do my first cycle I will do this

EQ 467mg week (200mg EOD )

HCG 100iu ED ( no need for TRT dose test )

HGH 3iu ED

then little adex and clomid for pct

 

[Genetic Freak]

well if you do decide and you want a awesome leaning cycle that will have you cut and swoll and the best you look, granted iv'e kept gains but i defiantly notice a reduction in vein size especially in my shoulders and arms off cycle but my strength remains the same its just workout intensity. and its all in your head i got buddys that come off and complain oh im so weak oh i need more juice oh this hurts that hurts, it gets annoying i except the plunge iv'e taken and i don't complain.


well


here is a good cycle

weeks 1-12 500mg test e shot monday and thursday

weeks 1-12 400-600 if you can hang of masteron E shot the same days as test

weeks 1-12 every other day .5 half a tab of arimidex

weeks 12 -13 continue .5 of arimidex everyday this time.

weeks 14-18 nolvadex (week 1 40mg everyday) (week 2 20mg everyday) (week 3 20mg everyday) and the last 2 weeks at 10mg.

weeks 19-24 10 pumps of formestane 2x a day

DIET IS EVERYTHING!

not sure about picking up college chicks but say hello to a crazy libido and the ability to fuck like your 20 again with masteron.

Why include Arimidex with Masteron..?

 

[regot]

Why include Arimidex with Masteron..?

Don't have to but its optional, while masteron does help with estro sides like some i'm gyno sensitive and still have a little that i deal with. he can opt out and get it or not its all a personal choice, I just throw the better safe than sorry method out there(although there is other meds better than adex for some). I pray know one has to deal with the gynoid monster or expect to pay a couple grand to have it removed if it bothers you that much. Id hate to have him come back here and say im growing a hard lump under nipple. but hey maybe masteron with test will be enough, it is for many.

 

[black53]

Masteron is a DHT derivative and DHT has additional anti gyno action.

 

[babayetu]

Thanks guys. I've not yet started any cycle, but have been doing a lot of reading.

It looks like it's either A) a Proviron only cycle. Will hardly help with size, but that's not necessarily what I'm looking for. Should I run a low dose clomid + aromasin during the Proviron? I'm more worried about not risking any long term shutdown problems than about making gains, and I don't think Proviron will give anything but strength gains anyway, apart from possible masculinization.

or B) something like regot's suggestion. However, I'm thinking something even milder:

weeks
1: 100 mg testosterone propionate e2d before test-e levels rise
1-10: 250 mg testosterone enthanate e4d.
1-10: low dose aromasin
1-5: 25mg or 50mg proviron ed (take half two times a day for blood levels)
5-10: low dose clomid to keep the little guys happy
11-12: aromasin
13-16: nolva tapering from 30mg ed to 10mg ed

From what I've read on net forums, most people seem to think you can run 250mg test-e only e4d without any AI for up to 12 weeks, and only nolva for PCT. So would the above cycle would be too overly cautious? Again, I'm more worried about long term shut down than about making big gains.

I haven't worked out the exact dosages of nolva, aromasin and clomid, but they will be low unless I notice any gyno.

 

[Prudentpartygirl]

I'm not nearly as scientific as all of the posts in this thread... AND I'm female sooo...

HOWEVER...

From the limited experience I've had (Winstrol inj EOD {forget dosage - 1 insulin pin's worth?}, Anavar up to 20mg/day, HGH 2IU's/day, Proviron {Forget dosage, ED for 2 mos}, arimidex {1g/day for the 7 days leading into a show}) I've found that many of my "gains" in the form of muscle size stayed, however, "lean-ness" did not. So, I question whether the integrity of muscle gained actually stayed or not.

I would think that, being that when you're "on", your body reacts to gear by synthesizing more efficiently proteins shuttled into your muscle tissue. Which is what creates the visible gains. This, of course, along with a sound eating and training plan (as someone stated above, steroids are not a magic pill/injection. Work must be done, as gear is simply a vehicle or catalyst for change) is the full formula for creating the end result.

When you take the catalyst away, growth/change is slowed/stopped. The body has a threshold for what it can achieve. A threshold that is superseded by a given steroid. SO... when that thing that is creating the supercession is taken away, the body then naturally reverts back to the natural state... the state that it could max at without the steroid.

Very unscientific.... no acetylcholinebipasshashtagcyclicbonds included.... just my semi-educated guess.

 

[brink]

JMO,

Would only run test as enanthate or cyp alone first, as many generally recommend.
I've dabbled with a number of compounds, home brewed. Test definitely tends to make one feel better and more confident - there also must be pheromone effects and such which I have absolutely no references for. Chicks pick up on the raging hormones, whatever it is. More than confidence, as I could be talking to absolutely nobody and get attention.
AI's would make the test go further, as less would be converted to estrogen. Also don't want to find out in a hurry if you have gyno sensitivity. 5AR inhibitors could also help retain potency with certain compounds, but may complicate matters with others.

Test (or tren) should help you grow hair as quickly as your body can - I have hair in spots where I didn't before running cycles, and lost some hair up top that mostly came back. Facial hair growth while on was personally significant to the point of people commenting on beards growing every other day after shaving. Close, anyway. Facial structure, at least muscular, will become more pronounced and masculine with usage. Supposedly there are lasting effects from running anabolic compounds, but the pct and withdrawal can be terrible mentally. Maybe folks can get around it with clever PCT's, HCG, cruising, etc. I really can't comment there.

If you have any history of cystic acne as a teen, I would skip the steroid experimentation entirely and maybe try SARMs, if even that - many who experience(d) more serious acne also experience MPB on this stuff. SARMs like ostarine, when run alone, can halt hairloss in many cases while ON, but perhaps through receptor upregulation, there can be a serious shed after stopping, even with taking 5AR inhibitors such as dutasteride.

Personally, I gave up on the serious stuff, and will only run clomid or ostarine on occasion. I'm blessed in the sense of being able to take gram+ levels of test with other compounds, no AI, and not having a hint of gyno, but MPB kicks in.. and severe acne after any cycle. Acne scarring is guaranteed, even though not experienced much as a teen. So, not of much use, personally.

Without knowing you, I would lean toward a clomid only trial, or a short test cycle, at most. The temporary andropause induced by steroids can be bad news for stress and aging. High blood pressure, as well. I typically had very low BP and looked significantly younger than my age before dabbling with any juice. YMMV. Whatever you decide, please keep titration in mind when starting and stopping.

 

[brink]

Not to spam, but anavar may also be a touchy one to trial if a guy is predisposed to hair loss with supraphysiologicial testosterone levels or other compounds. Genetically, my odds are "decreased", whatever that's worth, but there was readily apparent shedding on longer or stronger cycles. Even lowish amounts of oxandralone alone prompted shedding. <40mg/d Again, YMMV, but I find it very difficult to believe that guys predisposed at all to MPB can run 'var with no shedding. It is DHT based. There are conflicting reports online, and the general "broscience" stance is that it's mild wrt MPB. *cough* yeah..