The empathy spectrum

[psychedelicsoul]

I think we all have sociopathy wrong. I don't think it's very black and white. I think we all have a level of sociopathy within us and it's totally natural.
Behaviors that exemplify this include...
Bullying
Hunting
Eating meat when we don't really need to
and even harmless stuff like trolling people online

I think it works as a spectrum. We have the depraved sickos we traditionally call "sociopaths", killing small animals and hurting peoples emotions for fun, the ones who don't become serial killers that is.

Then we have average people... generally we can tend to have a cynical sense of humor with no regard to the others feelings... and that's me. When I make a joke, I don't care if it hurts peoples feelings. Also, the average person is capable to turn a blind eye to the suffering of animals and eat meat anyway. Some people, like me, are perfectly capable of hunting. Take your cutest animal, and I bet you I could shoot it in the face without blinking my eyes.

And then you have people with higher empathy... Vegans, anti-bullying people, anti-suicide people, LGBT activists, politically correct people, people who don't like offensive humor and anti-war people.
Some people have a greater capacity for empathy, which isn't necessarily good. Some of these people forsake logic, and ideals as a result of thier emotions. This is especially true with vegans. I've heard so much illogical stuff from them as a result of letting their emotions cloud their reason.

Now I think it's a good thing that not all people are capable of higher empathy. The reason why is because logic and reason are important, as well as values and concepts. For example... Due to my lack of empathy for people who choose suicide, I'm able to withhold my belief in freedom without guilt. I can eat meat without guilt. I can use logic, reason and withhold my belief in freedom and individuality.
Even if I did feel bad for certain groups of people, I don't allow empathy to cloud what I think is morally right. And I don't use empathy to determine what is or isn't moral.
Of course, being completely devoid of any empathy isn't ideal either.

Basically, I think that empathy exists within all of us in a natural spectrum, much like sexuality. Some of us, either through environment or birth, are capable of more/less empathy than we are. And empathy can be like a drug, it can warp your mind and make you stupider, or it can make you a better person. Of course morality is subjective, so I can't say what's "right" or "wrong"

But it's a good thing that the average person doesn't feel too much empathy or not enough empathy.

 

[Xorkoth]

My sense of morality comes from my empathy. In interactions with people or things, I see whether what I am doing makes them feel bad, and if it does, I adjust what I'm doing so this is not the case. I try to put myself in their shoes to understand why they feel the way they do. To me this makes logical sense, because I want to live in a world where people treat me the way I want to be treated, and where people give me an equal amount of respect and consideration as I give them.

The issues can be tricky when dealing with a global population though, because sometimes the best thing to do for a civilization isn't the best for specific people. Sometimes I've had trouble in my life because I tried to avoid hurting someone but my choice led to a greater amount of pain for people. So in that sense, I agree that too much empathy can cloud judgment, sometimes. Or at least it has the potential to if you don't remain as aware as possible.

Still, I wouldn't change myself to be less empathic. It brings me a lot of joy and people like me in part because of it. So even without considering what it directly brings me, it benefits me in a tangible way because people like me and want to be there for me, because I am there for them.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

My sense of morality comes from my empathy. In interactions with people or things, I see whether what I am doing makes them feel bad, and if it does, I adjust what I'm doing so this is not the case. I try to put myself in their shoes to understand why they feel the way they do. To me this makes logical sense, because I want to live in a world where people treat me the way I want to be treated, and where people give me an equal amount of respect and consideration as I give them.

The issues can be tricky when dealing with a global population though, because sometimes the best thing to do for a civilization isn't the best for specific people. Sometimes I've had trouble in my life because I tried to avoid hurting someone but my choice led to a greater amount of pain for people. So in that sense, I agree that too much empathy can cloud judgment, sometimes. Or at least it has the potential to if you don't remain as aware as possible.

Still, I wouldn't change myself to be less empathic. It brings me a lot of joy and people like me in part because of it. So even without considering what it directly brings me, it benefits me in a tangible way because people like me and want to be there for me, because I am there for them.

I try to look at things from other peoples perspective too, but I have certain standards of freedom I cannot break.

My empathy would tell me that supporting suicide is wrong. However, my belief in the concept of freedom is greater than my empathy. So I have empathy, but I have my belief that ones free will should never be tampered with unless it's done in defense of anothers life or anothers freedom.

That's why some of what I say shocks people. When I tell people that stepping on another persons shoes is worse than 1 million suicides that makes people think I have no empathy. But I have empathy, but not enough to defy my morals.

 

[Tromps]

No matter how hard I try, it's almost impossible to have empathy for certain people. Trying to put yourself in their shoes is incomprehensible to anyone with a conscience... I have absolutely no empathy for child rapists, terrorists (espec those who exploit children as soilders or strap suicide bombs on them), those who torture animals/people for pleasure, mass murders, groups that physically harm others because of their ethnicity or sexuality (hate crimes)., etc...

I do feel bad for the good family members whose loved ones turn out to be evil scum of the earth.

Still, a part of me doesn't wish eternal pain on anyone. Even the most ruthless, cruel, evil people I still have a shread of hope there is something redeemable in them. I guess it leaves me asking myself, is there a far enough barbaric act that isn't forgivable in the eyes of God? (Say a merciful, loving, forgiving God exists). Is there any crime that requires "eternal" punishment?

Sorry if I got off on a tangent.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

No matter how hard I try, it's almost impossible to have empathy for certain people. Trying to put yourself in their shoes is incomprehensible to anyone with a conscience... I have absolutely no empathy for child rapists, terrorists (espec those who exploit children as soilders or strap suicide bombs on them), those who torture animals/people for pleasure, mass murders, groups that physically harm others because of their ethnicity or sexuality (hate crimes)., etc...

I do feel bad for the good family members whose loved ones turn out to be evil scum of the earth.

Still, a part of me doesn't wish eternal pain on anyone. Even the most ruthless, cruel, evil people I still have a shread of hope there is something redeemable in them. I guess it leaves me asking myself, is there a far enough barbaric act that isn't forgivable in the eyes of God? (Say a merciful, loving, forgiving God exists). Is there any crime that requires "eternal" punishment?

Sorry if I got off on a tangent.

You bring up a good point. Empathy is selective.

 

[Tromps]

Then we have average people... generally we can tend to have a cynical sense of humor with no regard to the others feelings... and that's me. When I make a joke, I don't care if it hurts peoples feelings.

And then you have people with higher empathy... people who don't like offensive humor

I don't see anything wrong with comedians making offensive jokes about race, religion, physical appearance, behaviors, etc, when say they're talking to a general audience. Caucasian comedians make fun of misc ethnic/white sterotypes, colored comedians make fun of white/misc ethnic stereotypes,, obese/little comedians make fun of themselves and/or other peoples looks as well. Sometimes it's good to laugh at yourself and stereotypes of your own similar people without being too serious imo.

It tends to cross the line for me when "jokes" become personal insults directed at a particular individual(s) intended to offend or hurt someone.

I've laughed at racist jokes during stand up shows plenty of times, I don't consider it wrong or myself racist though. I've justasmuch laughed at jokes about my own race & religion/faith without feeling personally insulted.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

I don't see anything wrong with comedians making offensive jokes about race, religion, physical appearance, behaviors, etc, when say they're talking to a general audience. Caucasian comedians make fun of misc ethnic/white sterotypes, colored comedians make fun of white/misc ethnic stereotypes,, obese/little comedians make fun of themselves and/or other peoples looks as well. Sometimes it's good to laugh at yourself and stereotypes of your own similar people without being too serious imo.

It tends to cross the line for me when "jokes" become personal insults directed at a particular individual(s) intended to offend or hurt someone.

I've laughed at racist jokes during stand up shows plenty of times, I don't consider it wrong or myself racist though. I've justasmuch laughed at jokes about my own race & religion/faith without feeling personally insulted.

Well, sometimes you just wanna make people laugh, and you just don't care if the other person cries as a result. Back in high school I was practically a master of insult humor. Some people bully to build themselves up. For me, I just tore down peoples self esteem in order to entertain more people.

I guess the question is how much laughter is equal to another persons cries?

 

[Tromps]

Well, sometimes you just wanna make people laugh, and you just don't care if the other person cries as a result. Back in high school I was practically a master of insult humor. Some people bully to build themselves up. For me, I just tore down peoples self esteem in order to entertain more people.

I guess the question is how much laughter is equal to another persons cries?

What you're describing is straight up bullying. You don't need to make another person cry to bring laughter and joy to others. -.-

 

[psychedelicsoul]

What you're describing is straight up bullying. You don't need to make another person cry to bring laughter and joy to others. -.-

Yea, but could it have been the result of me and the other mean kids naturally not having as much empathy as others. Maybe empathy works like sexual orientation and you're born with a predisposition to having lots of empathy or not having much at all.
Or if you wanna get spiritual, maybe god made me with a lack of empathy for a reason, or my soul lacks empathy. Maybe there are some souls filled with love and kindness and others that aren't.

Or maybe compassion is taught to us and not natural in the first place.

 

[Xorkoth]

No matter how hard I try, it's almost impossible to have empathy for certain people. Trying to put yourself in their shoes is incomprehensible to anyone with a conscience... I have absolutely no empathy for child rapists, terrorists (espec those who exploit children as soilders or strap suicide bombs on them), those who torture animals/people for pleasure, mass murders, groups that physically harm others because of their ethnicity or sexuality (hate crimes)., etc...

I do feel bad for the good family members whose loved ones turn out to be evil scum of the earth.

Still, a part of me doesn't wish eternal pain on anyone. Even the most ruthless, cruel, evil people I still have a shread of hope there is something redeemable in them. I guess it leaves me asking myself, is there a far enough barbaric act that isn't forgivable in the eyes of God? (Say a merciful, loving, forgiving God exists). Is there any crime that requires "eternal" punishment?

Sorry if I got off on a tangent.

Good point, I also have trouble having empathy for the types of people you describe. I try, intellectually I can have empathy (they must have had a fucked up childhood, or they must have had a shitty life, etc), but when faced with it I can't feel good about people like that. But I guess it's because I can't imagine myself doing that, and it doesn't fit with my view that one should treat others like one wants to be treated. Humans are complicated.

 

[neurotic]

i believe also that empathy is a spectrum - some people being more, some people being less - like several other human traits (?)

i think sociopaths like imagined or often portrayed are a very romanticized view, based more on people's fears than anything else. i mean, a complete lack of empathy would tend towards a generally more neutral attitude towards other people, because you would be ignorant of being kind or being mean. you would go as evil as egoist and disregarding of others goes.

one would need empathy to relate (even if negatively) to others' feelings. that is, i think that people who tend to bully and have a generally negative social attitude don't do so because of lack of empathy but because of some fucked up thing that makes them like the suffering of others... all of the people i know that are like that had a pretty fucked up childhood...

 

[Foreigner]

Highly empathic people can easily feel what others feel, and so they tend to want to make those people feel better in order to make themselves feel better. Compassion becomes a coping strategy just as much as it is a virtue. The way empathy is framed in the OP has more to do with values than innate feelings. Empathic people don't choose to be empathic, they just are. It doesn't make them stupid or smart, or anything... it's just a type of person that tends to feel their way through the world, it doesn't mean an absence of logic per se.

Sociopaths, like narcissists and borderline people, don't feel empathy for others, or at least it doesn't come naturally to them. I read a study about a year ago which showed that borderline people can be taught to exhibit empathy, but unless they decide to do it, it's not automatic. And not all borderline people are violent or abusive, in fact most aren't.

Specific actions, habits, hobbies, etc... don't necessarily make a person one or the other. I'm probably the most empathic and sensitive person I know, yet I'm trained in firearms and partake in hunting. I have a lot of compassion for the animals I hunt and make sure they are taken down humanely, by honing my skills. A borderline person might not care how much an animal suffers, or may even enjoy it. From the outside looking in, you might not be able to tell the difference.

It's not a values thing, it's who you are, innately. The Myers Briggs delineates this quite nicely.