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The average human is incredibly vain, greedy, violent and egotistical.

Snafu in the Void

Moderator: NMI Bukowski Jr.
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The average person is a piece of shit. Vain, greedy, selfish and self centered. I am not religious, but the 7 deadly sins are the normal human condition.

True altruism is rare and not the norm for humans. True love is also rare. A person which has shed all of the negative human traits is nearly non existent.

Am I just being overly pessimistic? Has the internet jaded me? (It's usually the most toxic people who are the loudest)

Is humanity doomed? Do we even deserve to exist?

Or is evil a natural element of survival and life itself?

I wrestle with the idea that overall I believe I am a good person myself, but certainly I am not above any of these negative traits and often fall into them.
 
The average person is a piece of shit.

Define average.

Vain, greedy, selfish and self centered.

All of these traits can be worded in positive ways too. Living for yourself isn’t really a bad thing inherently. Contextually, sure, they can be bad. But does every even vain, greedy, selfish, and self-centered person exclusively act based on self-interest? I don’t think so. Aside from the fact that even altruism really just derives from self-interest of course, since that’s just the nature of the beast.

I am not religious, but the 7 deadly sins are the normal human condition.

Sounds like a very religious thing to say.

True altruism is rare and not the norm for humans.

Not in my experience. Sure, big gestures are rare, but that’s kind of a given. Tiny examples of altruism occur all the time, including from people who you might not like or agree with enough to want to ascribe that quality to them, but it still counts.

True love is also rare.

I’ve never known anyone to say otherwise.

A person which has shed all of the negative human traits is nearly non existent.

Entirely nonexistent. I don’t even see it as a valid benchmark because it’s not a thing.

Am I just being overly pessimistic?

I think so. It happens.

Has the internet jaded me?

Probably.

(It's usually the most toxic people who are the loudest)

Pretty much.

Is humanity doomed?

Define doomed.

Do we even deserve to exist?

No such thing.

Or is evil a natural element of survival and life itself?

Not in the way I think of evil. Although we did literally evolve to kill things for sustenance or die.

I wrestle with the idea that overall I believe I am a good person myself, but certainly I am not above any of these negative traits and often fall into them.

It’s the same with everyone else. People aren’t sitting around thinking about the shitty things you’ve done for the most part. Most of them probably don’t even think most of the things you’ve done that you think are shitty are shitty. They just expect you to grow up eventually. If you just keep doing the same shitty things over and over again forever without learning anything then obviously you genuinely are one of the shitty ones.

My two cents.
 
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Am I just being overly pessimistic? Has the internet jaded me?
Yes and yes.


The average person is a piece of shit. Vain, greedy, selfish and self centered. I am not religious, but the 7 deadly sins are the normal human condition.

True altruism is rare and not the norm for humans. True love is also rare. A person which has shed all of the negative human traits is nearly non existent.
With what metric are you measuring these things?

Everyone has the capacity to be vain, greedy, selfish, etc, for sure. But everyone also has the capacity to be selfless and compassionate and to embody the opposite quality of whatever the 7 deadly sins are. Both things are part of the human condition. It doesn't make sense to say that the average person is mostly just shit, ie, embodying mostly just the negative side. Firstly, how can you possibly know this, there are over 8 billion people on the planet but a disconcertingly vast proportion of power and control over the planet's resources that is enabled by wealth is possessed by a comparatively tiny number of people. Unfortunately it is the nature of the current state of affairs that those who are willing to prioritise their own self interest above morality immediately have an edge over those whose actions are constrained by morality, thus effectively rendering the vast majority the human population relatively powerless, voiceless, and unseen. Maybe they are mostly pieces of shit by any reasonable metric but this is just impossible to know, and I would argue unlikely. If you looked only at the loudest and most visible people in the world, I can understand why you might come to this conclusion, but this is an extremely skewed and relatively miniscule segment of the entire human population that is almost guaranteed to be weighted towards those with flexible ethics, so to speak.

True altruism and true love are rare, again, how can you know?

Isn't the fact that we have defined certain qualities as "sins", itself some kind of indicator of an intrinsic ethical framework of some sort? If this were the norm then we would not have defined these things as sins, they would just be normal behaviour. That is, unless you think your own definition of sinfulness, or what it is to be a piece of shit, is significantly different to the norm - although in that case I would caution you to remember the phrase, "if you think it's everyone else who's the problem..." ;)

Consider this - how likely is it on any given day that you will be able to avoid people who are truly pieces of shit? How many people are there around you on any given day who are truly malicious enough to actually interfere with your life, directly? I'm asking because if you live in a part of the world where you have reliable internet access, presumably reliable electricity, access to clean water, and a roof over your head, I think it's likely quite possible that you live in a society that is cohesive enough and stable enough and where there has been a sufficient level of organisation and cooperation between individual human beings over a long enough time period to create these things - which would simply not be possible without a significant degree of mutual trust, respect, cooperation and selfless behaviour - bearing in mind that the corruption and exploitation of labour by unchecked, runaway capitalism is a relatively recent phenomenon over the entire history of our species - that you probably are not in that much actual danger from people who truly are evil, courtesy of the social structures established by people who care about such things as social stability, safety, and their fellow human beings. I would say therefore that it doesn't make much sense to say that most people are just shit, even in the tiny section of society immediately around you, disregarding the roughly 8 billion other unknowns.

If you are conditioned to look for it - or even if not - you can of course easily find examples of the worst examples of human, because these people, as you say, are often loud, and visible. But they are visible, and their presence striking enough that people are inclined to stare at them (virtually, metaphorically), and that people find them entertaining, such that their presence in media and the popular consciousness is disproportionately high compared to their actual number, precisely because these people are outliers, they are entertaining because the magnitude of their sins is striking, baffling, and very much not the norm even for those people who do actively spend most of their time looking for such people. On the other hand it is the nature of people who embody the opposite ideals that they will be quieter, more humble, they won't brag about their achievements. Because of this it is more effort to look for these people, and it takes more cognitive effort to recognise and appreciate them than it does the relatively simple, brash, entertainment appeal of whatever billionaire asshole you can think of. Indeed, antagonistic actions that upset social cohesion are in some ways just intrinsically more entertaining to watch, as long as they aren't happening to you directly, I guess, than quiet acts of philanthropy that help human society continue to operate more smoothly with less drama. These things are natural instincts which humans are not to blame for, we are primed to recognise disruption and danger more than we are to recognise or appreciate stability, this seems to have been evolutionarily necessary. But of course, the speed with which unprecedented new forms of audiovisual, multisensory entertainment has developed, coupled with the means to distribute this, and the immense inertia of emergent market forces that prioritise accumulation of capital above all else, has changed our environment faster than we have been able to properly adapt to it so far, leading to a complete exploitation of this basic, danger-seeking instinct which means that frankly it is profitable to show us the worst examples of human nature more than it is to show us the best.

An obvious example that I hope no one is cynical enough to both read all that and find controversial is the coverage that Bill Gates gets compared to Elon Musk. Consider the amount of philanthropy that the former has been involved in - and then consider how much people are interested in this, compared to the idea that he might be using 5G to transmit new forms of COVID or something. And then obviously you just have to think about the behaviour of the "fanbase" (ugh) of either individual. I mean... I don't think I need to explain this even.


Do we even deserve to exist?
Strange question, pretty meaningless, honestly. Can you think of even just one person in your life, or one person you can think of in history (although I hope you can think of someone in your life) that you consider to be a genuinely good person, that you have an uncomplicated relationship with. Do you think they don't deserve to exist?

More bluntly, do you think that the fact that you are aware of the potential for evil that exists within humanity is enough to condemn every other good individual to nonexistence? Does it really even make sense to you to ask that question, as if "we" are all a single entity, and responsible by mere virtue of being human for all the worst evils committed by humanity?


Or is evil a natural element of survival and life itself?
Evil is a human concept, and requires a moral framework to mean anything. Is a cat evil when it tortures a mouse to death?

I always end up bringing up this example when faced with this kind of cynicism but it remains one of the best examples I can think of. While we might be the most capable species on the planet, and unarguably technologically superior, we are NOT the most sadistic or violent hominid. Indeed our closest relative, the chimpanzee, is by nature far more brutal, violent and sadistic than we are, they are both smart enough to understand how to hurt each other, and malicious enough to use this knowledge such that when settling disputes with conflict and at least a few deaths, as is, pretty much, the norm, they will have no qualms about breaking and biting fingers, gauging out eyes, and ripping off the balls of their enemies. Are chimpanzees more or less evil than us? Does it even make sense to think in this way about them? Doesn't the fact that we HAVE enough empathy that is seemingly intrinsic, that there is no evidence this was EVER normal human behaviour even in days before any kind of formalised thinking about ethics and morally, despite the fact that we surely have an even greater appreciation for how much this would hurt - mean something?

Of course, there have been sadistic and evil individuals who have exploited this knowledge - but they remain individuals, this kind of evil is exceptional and noticeably abhorrent precisely because it is rare. It is easy for most of us to tell that it is wrong.
 
The average person is a piece of shit. Vain, greedy, selfish and self centered. I am not religious, but the 7 deadly sins are the normal human condition.

True altruism is rare and not the norm for humans. True love is also rare. A person which has shed all of the negative human traits is nearly non existent.

Am I just being overly pessimistic? Has the internet jaded me? (It's usually the most toxic people who are the loudest)

Is humanity doomed? Do we even deserve to exist?

Or is evil a natural element of survival and life itself?

I wrestle with the idea that overall I believe I am a good person myself, but certainly I am not above any of these negative traits and often fall into them.
If there is good people out there with minimal negative traits, you would not be aware of them and they would not show up in your reality. Our mind creates our circumstances and what we are able to experience. So therefore, if you have a pessimistic worldview, you are automatically disabling yourself from encountering such a person. And you will only be a match to the people who fit your preconception.

That is why racist people have their views validated because their beliefs about reality causes them to be a match to people who fit stereotypes or causes them to have bad experiences and associations with the ethnicity that they are being racist towards.

And even if someone did come into your path that was truly altruistic, you wouldn’t realize it as such because your preconceived notion that altruism is rare will cause you to subconsciously exaggerate the moments where people are being greedy and selfish and downplay or dismiss the moments where people are being selfless.
 
The average person is a piece of shit. Vain, greedy, selfish and self centered. I am not religious, but the 7 deadly sins are the normal human condition.

True altruism is rare and not the norm for humans. True love is also rare. A person which has shed all of the negative human traits is nearly non existent.

Am I just being overly pessimistic? Has the internet jaded me? (It's usually the most toxic people who are the loudest)

Is humanity doomed? Do we even deserve to exist?

Or is evil a natural element of survival and life itself?

I wrestle with the idea that overall I believe I am a good person myself, but certainly I am not above any of these negative traits and often fall into them.
I feel the same way, but it may be due to my life experiences. I always saw the world as a cruel and dark place until I saw how beautiful the natural world is when I tripped on psilocybin last week. This did nothing for the way I view most humans though. I would say you are correct when speaking in generalization. I have met some beautiful souls though and I try to remember that, because I get really depressed thinking about this.

I think at least in America humans are consumed by consumerism and technological advances. I love technology too, but it should be working with nature and not against it. We as humans have seemed to lost our way to what is most important. To me, that is human connection and spirituality (not religion). Americans for the most part are very egotistical and always trying to out compete the next person. We have a cuthroat mentality in america in my experience. I have been guilty of this myself to some degree. I really, very strongly, believe that psilocybin is the answer to this. We are in the middle of a psychedelic revolution and this very well may change humanities course of history. Right now, I feel that if we don't change then we are going to become extinct eventually.

Although some technology is good. Alot of it is destroying us and nature. We should be in synergy with nature, not against it. There is hope though. Quantum physicist are saying that all matter is created by energy and that we are not primarily matter, but energy and that we are all connected. So, essentially they are nearly proving the existence of the spiritual world in my opinion which could really change the course of humanity as well.

For now, I am just going to try to be the best version of myself that i can. Try to care more for others and stop thinking about my own pain all the time. How long am I going to let the pain of my past and past conditioning dictate who I am and the way I live my life. I am tired of being the sad guy thats addicted to drugs. I was so wrapped up in reliving my own pain, that I ignored the pain of others. I am ready to be the director of my own life and play the role l want. That is the beauty of life. We get to recreate ourselves if we want to work for it. Part of this is connecting to our true self, without all the conditioning. Psilocybin is helpful for this I think. Though I believe meditation can get us there too. It just takes alot longer. These are just my opinions.
 
Am I just being overly pessimistic? Has the internet jaded me? (It's usually the most toxic people who are the loudest)
Maybe, yes, and yes.

I think you're about 60% correct. Remember, though, that we are bombarded by the media (including "social"), by horror stories. For every nasty behavior that blares in the headlines, there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of small acts of everyday kindness and compassion.

What I wish more self-centered people would realize is that altruism is, in a way, selfish (in the sense of being beneficial to oneself).

Being trustworthy, respectful, kind, empathetic, generous, compassionate (in other words, being a "good person") ---
1. Usually makes you feel good about yourself
2. Usually requires very little personal sacrifice
3. Makes others more likely to treat you well
4. Makes others more likely to help you out when you're in need
5. Makes society, in general, a better place--- thus encouraging people to be less hostile and more pleasant to each othet

The only downside is that there are some people who will try to take advantage of you. Remember, I did NOT say that you should be naive, gullible, or a doormat. Do not mistake my kindness for weakness.

The top 20 or so major religions in the world ALL have one thing in common: some version of The Golden Rule (treat others as you would want to be treated). This is no coincidence. Nor is it evidence of a supernatural being. That concept is a very basic (perhaps on the genetic level?) human understanding that acting like that is beneficial to you and everyone around you.

Oh yeah, we stray from and/or distort that basic truth all the time. But deep down most of us know that it is essential to human survival.

Have a nice day.
(and I do mean that)

✌ ♥ ☺
 
The average person isn't capable of decision making at a level that can stabilize democracy.

Everyone has love in them and is capable of doing good to others.
 
Oh yeah, and I meant to address the question "do we even deserve to exist?"

Sure, just as much as anything else-- an insect, a tree, a virus.

Remember, we are star stuff.
Do stars and galaxies of stars "deserve" to exist? If so, then so do we.

I do, however, believe that in existing we have a responsibility to exist in the best way that we can.
 
I'd actually say virtually all are. It's part of our evolutionary biology and the psychology that goes with consciousness. What makes the difference are those that recognize those traits, but then do something to curb the nasty behaviour inherent in being an evil monkey. A lot of people recognize traits about themselves, like having a hair trigger temper or a tendancy to misinterpret the raw data their eyes are receiving. I fall victim to both of those, but with hindsight, I can actually work out the triggers that turn me into a person I don't particularly like.
Once you start to see where the sensory processing faults occur, you work out ways of compensating. Basically, I got the idea from 'A Beautiful Mind'. Break reality down to tiny logical steps, then look for the one that does not behave the way references on the Internet say it should. It's the other side of the coin, of stuff like 'The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy', where tiny logical steps can lead to the wonderfully absurd (the infinite probability drive is a beautiful example!).
 
The greatest lie we have ever been told is that we are inherently violent. It is the fundamental lie that keeps our civilization turning, for the benefit of the few. You can't have a top heavy distribution of wealth and power based on peace. You only need look at the past century to see this in action. We're seeing it again right now with Ukraine, where the Anglo-American empire is trying to manufacture yet another war in order to perpetuate itself.

We are destined to be cooperative, not competitive. Our evolutionary inherited behaviour involving killing for survival is something we have the ability to transcend. The psychological impulse for that killing is a hangover, not an inherent trait. It is a particular piece of psychological programming to ensure survival, like the sexual impulse, that nature controls. Where we've gone wrong is institutionalizing and isolating that impulse, along with the sexual impulse, to the point it becomes perverted and dominates the psychology - the Vatican is the embodiment of both (genocide and nonce tendencies).

Evil doesn't exist. There are psychological programs, semi-autonomous entities, that have defined roles which we have misplaced due to our fumbling through time and history. All our pain and suffering is the result of our striving to take the training wheels off and launch ourselves towards becoming creators in our own right, and not just being the created. But we couldn't have gotten to where we are without natures programming.. nature has to take charge of killing and sexuality to ensure our survival first - both activities are dangerous to self survival, and therefore we have to be 'pushed' to engage in them by an external factor to override the inherent desire to avoid death. To clarify, all biological organisms have an inherent desire to avoid death of the self and in order to overcome this in the more autonomous creatures (humans), for purposes of predation and reproduction, there has to be an external non-biological motivating factor that overrides the inherent biology.

It is our ignorance of the true causes and motivations that causes our suffering. We believe we have free will, but actually we're 99% robotic in everything we do, motivated by forces we can't see and don't understand.

We're all alright, 'good' people. Even those who do harm. Our species is just learning to take the training wheels off, we're still learning, and mistakes are a part of growth and not indicative of failure.
 
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Always do right; this will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Do right and you will be conspicuous. Do right for your own sake and be happy in knowing that your neighbor will certainly share in the benefits resulting.

---- Mark Twain
 
I think most people based on their ego just want to advertise their own brand image.

They want to be well known.

They want to be cool.

They want to fit in with some type of style or life style.

The higher calling of spirituality..

You want to be clean and holy.. which is great during drug addiction..
 
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