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Bupe Subutex - Overlapping Opiate Use While Microdosing

NicoOregon

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Jan 15, 2018
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Interesting study. I knew there was a way! Looking forward to reading thoughts:

Use of microdoses for induction of
buprenorphine treatment with overlapping opioid use.
Division of Addiction, University
Psychiatric Services
Because induction of buprenorphine is a difficult experience, due to withdrawal
symptoms. Furthermore, tapering of the full agonist bears the risk of relapse to illicit opioid use.
Cases: We present two cases of successful initiation of buprenorphine treatment with the
Bernese method, ie, gradual induction overlapping with full agonist use. The first patient began
buprenorphine with overlapping street heroin use after repeatedly experiencing relapse, with-
drawal, and trauma reactivation symptoms during conventional induction. The second patient
was maintained on high doses of diacetylmorphine (ie, pharmaceutical heroin) and methadone
during induction. Both patients tolerated the induction procedure well and reported only mild
withdrawal symptoms.
Discussion: Overlapping induction of buprenorphine maintenance treatment with full µ-opioid
receptor agonist use is feasible and may be associated with better tolerability and acceptability
in some patients compared to the conventional method of induction.
Substance Abuse and Rehabilitation
Dove Press
Use of microdoses for induction of buprenorphine treatment with overlapping full opioid agonist use: the Bernese method
Robert Hämmig, Antje Kemter, [...], and Marc Vogel
Additional article information
Abstract
Background
Buprenorphine is a partial µ-opioid receptor agonist used for maintenance treatment of opioid dependence. Because of the partial agonism and high receptor affinity, it may precipitate withdrawal symptoms during induction in persons on full µ-opioid receptor agonists. Therefore, current guidelines and drug labels recommend leaving a sufficient time period since the last full agonist use, waiting for clear and objective withdrawal symptoms, and reducing pre-existing full agonist therapies before administering buprenorphine. However, even with these precautions, for many patients the induction of buprenorphine is a difficult experience, due to withdrawal symptoms. Furthermore, tapering of the full agonist bears the risk of relapse to illicit opioid use.
Cases
We present two cases of successful initiation of buprenorphine treatment with the Bernese method, ie, gradual induction overlapping with full agonist use. The first patient began buprenorphine with overlapping street heroin use after repeatedly experiencing relapse, withdrawal, and trauma reactivation symptoms during conventional induction. The second patient was maintained on high doses of diacetylmorphine (ie, pharmaceutical heroin) and methadone during induction. Both patients tolerated the induction procedure well and reported only mild withdrawal symptoms.
Discussion
Overlapping induction of buprenorphine maintenance treatment with full µ-opioid receptor agonist use is feasible and may be associated with better tolerability and acceptability in some patients compared to the conventional method of induction.
Keywords: subutex, suboxone, heroin, opiate, substitution
Introduction
Buprenorphine is a partial µ-opioid agonist and κ-opioid antagonist used for maintenance treatment of opioid dependence (OMT). It is as effective as methadone in suppressing opioid use and is slightly less effective in retaining patients in treatment.1 Buprenorphine has potential advantages over methadone, including a lower risk of overdose due to the partial agonism and the associated “low ceiling effect” for respiratory depression, fewer pharmaceutical interactions, and absence of corrected QT interval (QTc)-prolongation.24However, because buprenorphine replaces other opioids at the µ-receptor due to its high affinity, the partial agonism at the µ-opioid receptor may precipitate severe withdrawal in persons regularly using opioids.5Therefore, guidelines on buprenorphine induction in OMT and drug labels recommend consideration of the nature of opioid dependence (ie, long- or short-acting opioid), its degree, and the time since last opioid use:4,6,7 physicians should leave sufficient time between last use of opioid agonist and buprenorphine. This time depends on the opioid used and ranges between 4 (heroin) and 36–48 hours (methadone). Moreover, waiting for observable opioid withdrawal symptoms before starting buprenorphine is recommended. A switch of the substitute from methadone to buprenorphine requires prior tapering of methadone to a daily dose of 30–40 mg.8
Clinical experience shows that despite these precautions, the induction of buprenorphine can precipitate severe opioid withdrawal. In addition to the discomfort, this may lead to treatment dropout or relapse with full opioid agonists. Precipitated withdrawal and the complicated induction process may result in differences between buprenorphine and methadone with regard to treatment retention in the first 2 weeks.9
Between 40% and 60% of buprenorphine-maintained persons concomitantly use full µ-receptor agonists.1012 According to patients’ accounts and experimental studies, this use is not associated with opioid withdrawal but attenuated subjective opioid effects such as euphoria.13 The attenuation persists for some days after termination of buprenorphine use. The likely explanation is the higher opioid receptor binding capacity of buprenorphine. Other opioid agonists and their active metabolites can replace only a small fraction of buprenorphine at the receptor. Moreover, because of its low dissociation constant, buprenorphine separates slowly from the receptor once it is bound.14 The slow association/dissociation kinetics allow for 72-hour dosing intervals in buprenorphine treatment.4,15 Because of the high µ-opioid receptor affinity, buprenorphine can replace a full µ-agonist at the receptor while at the same time providing less µ-opioid effects.16
Resnick et al17 showed that repetitive administration of the µ-antagonist naloxone quickly leads to a maximum of withdrawal symptoms that decline afterward despite continued naloxone application. This phenomenon was used in the 1980s in the development of rapid withdrawal procedures.18 Furthermore, it was shown that a very small dose of 0.2 mg buprenorphine intravenous (iv) did not produce opioid withdrawal in methadone-maintained individuals.19
From this, we developed the following hypotheses: 1) Repetitive administration of very small buprenorphine doses with sufficient dosing intervals (eg, 12 hours) should not precipitate opioid withdrawal. 2) Because of the long receptor binding time, buprenorphine will accumulate at the receptor. 3) Over time, an increasing amount of a full µ-agonist will be replaced by buprenorphine at the opioid receptor.
Hence, overlapping induction of buprenorphine with ongoing use of street heroin or maintenance on high doses of a full µ-agonist should be possible without precipitating severe opioid withdrawal. We present two cases in which we tested this procedure, termed the Bernese method. In both patients, we used sublingual buprenorphine, as the buprenorphine/naloxone combination is not available in Switzerland. We first introduced this method in 2010, and described the initial treatment of the first case in German.20 The second case has never been published before. We have successfully applied the Bernese method in a number of patients since. Clinical treatment was conducted in agreement with the patients, and both patients consented to the publication of their data in anonymized form.
Case 1
The patient grew up in an unremarkable middle-class family. At the age of 12, she was sexually abused and developed post-traumatic stress disorder. At the age of 15, she began using various substances (psilocybin, 3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine, cocaine, cannabis, and, sporadically, heroin). At the age of 18, she experienced a major depressive episode with a suicide attempt. She then started suffering from bulimia, which remitted at age 23.
Preceding a job-related stay in Central America, she used heroin for several weeks. During the stay, she was unable to obtain heroin and began using crack-cocaine, quickly developing a severe dependence. Back in Switzerland, she successfully managed to stop crack-cocaine, but reinitiated heroin use. After several months, she opted for buprenorphine treatment but experienced the induction-associated symptoms as very stressful.
She stabilized during treatment, tapered buprenorphine and abstained from opioids for several months before initiating sporadic use of heroin again. At the age of 30, when she entered our outpatient treatment, she sniffed 3 g of street heroin daily.
Conventional induction
The patient was ordered to return in the morning. She had then abstained from heroin for more than 8 hours and showed distinct symptoms of withdrawal (rhinorrhea, mydriasis, and stomach cramps).
Buprenorphine was started at 0.4 mg sublingually, and the same dose was administered four times with an interval of 30 minutes. Starting with the first and increasing with each further administration, she felt worse and suffered from diarrhea. She experienced trauma-related flashbacks and showed severe anxiety and dissociative thinking. Her state did not improve with two further doses of 8 mg buprenorphine. We then administered 50 mg of promazine po, which brought some relief, and after 8 hours of surveillance she had improved sufficiently to return home.
Bernese method
After 2 weeks, the patient stopped taking buprenorphine and reinitiated sniffed heroin use. A week later, she presented herself again with the wish for buprenorphine treatment, but was afraid of being unable to tolerate the induction process and the related symptoms. We suggested overlapping buprenorphine induction with the Bernese method (ie, start with a low dose of 0.2 mg buprenorphine overlapping with heroin use, small daily dose increases, and abrupt cessation of heroin use at sufficient dose). Furthermore, we offered her the support of a physician (via text message) to flexibly adapt dosing. Buprenorphine dosing and use of street heroin were noted (Table 1). The patient tolerated this induction process much better than the conventional induction.
Table 1
Table 1

Buprenorphine dosing and use of street heroin in case 1
She was stable with 12 mg/d buprenorphine. Throughout further treatment she stopped buprenorphine several times, used heroin, and afterward reinitiated buprenorphine treatment with the Bernese method. However, after these short disruptions, she increased buprenorphine dosing more rapidly. She then developed a major depressive episode and was started on 20 mg/d escitalopram and psychotherapy. With this treatment, she stabilized further and abstained from heroin for 2.5 years.
Because of the desire for complete abstinence, she then wanted to stop buprenorphine and initiate naltrexone treatment to reduce opioid craving. However, she was worried about the first week after cessation of buprenorphine, where naltrexone should not be administered according to the drug label.
Overlapping induction of a full antagonist
We assumed that naltrexone could be initiated analogous to the overlapping induction of buprenorphine. Preliminary data suggest that very low naltrexone doses during µ-agonist treatment may not be associated with reduced analgesic efficacy.21However, naltrexone tablets available in Switzerland contain a rather large dose of 50 mg drug. After tapering of buprenorphine to 2 mg/d, the patient started with small amounts of naltrexone scratched off from a tablet and increased the dose daily. She did not develop any withdrawal symptoms or craving, stopped buprenorphine, and increased naltrexone to 25 mg/d. After several months, she stopped naltrexone and has since been abstinent for an ongoing period of 3 years and 3 months.
Case 2
After using heroin for several years and unsuccessful treatment attempts with methadone, the patient entered heroin-assisted treatment (HAT) at the age of 49. In addition to heroin dependence, he fulfilled International Classification of Diseases-10 criteria for cocaine and tobacco dependence. He suffered from mild chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, chronic hepatitis C-infection, and recurrent thrombosis due to groin injection. Furthermore, the patient had a long history of substance-related crime and imprisonment. Throughout 6 years in HAT, he completely stopped using street heroin, reduced cocaine use to once per month, and entered a job rehabilitation program. At this point, he received 200 mg diacetylmorphine (DAM; ie, pharmaceutical heroin) iv twice daily, and 40 mg of methadone to avoid nighttime withdrawal symptoms. Because he wanted to stop iv injections, iv DAM was switched to oral tablets at the equivalent dose of 400 mg twice daily. After another 2 months without using nonprescribed opioids, the patient desired a less rigid therapeutic setting (HAT entails twice daily medication dispensing 365 days per year). We suggested switching to buprenorphine. Because of fears that the guideline-recommended reduction of the full agonist dose prior to switching might lead to a destabilization, we suggested induction with the Bernese method.
Overlapping induction of buprenorphine with maintenance on full µ-agonists
At first administration of buprenorphine, the patient had been on a stable oral maintenance dose of 40 mg methadone and 800 mg DAM per day for 2 months. It is important to note that we did not grant take-home dosages for DAM tablets, but substituted these with methadone. The patient received methadone instead of DAM when he could not attend on-site dispensing. He completed the short opioid withdrawal scale (SOWS) daily. The SOWS is a ten-item questionnaire rating withdrawal symptoms on a scale of 0–3, yielding a maximum score of 30.22 Another question on opiate craving answered likewise was added. Furthermore, every third day the patient completed visual analog scales related to general mental state and feeling stressed, relaxed, and nervous.
We began with a dose of 0.2 mg buprenorphine sublingually, which was well tolerated. The next day, the dose was increased to 0.4 mg twice daily. We decided to dose twice daily in the beginning as the effect of buprenorphine is shorter at lower doses and switched to once-daily dosing at 2 mg/d. Buprenorphine was principally increased by 0.4 mg/d up to a dose of 3.4 mg, then we increased the daily dose by 20%–30%. The patient tolerated buprenorphine induction very well but reported mild opioid withdrawal symptoms on day 8 at 3 mg/d and day 11 at 4.8 mg/d (Table 2). At 6 mg/d on day 14, the patient went on a 5-day vacation and was switched to 180 mg/d methadone (as DAM tablets were not available as take-home medication), while the buprenorphine dose remained unchanged. During days 13–16, he reported slightly stronger withdrawal symptoms, although they were still mild to moderate (maximum score of 7 in the SOWS). Days 15 and 16 were the only days during induction on which he reported any opiate craving (moderate). Unfortunately, he did not complete the SOWS on days 17–19 but retrospectively reported a complete remission of withdrawal symptoms during that time. When he returned 1 day later than planned on day 19, he did not show signs of withdrawal. On day 22, we increased the buprenorphine dose again. The patient did not show any substantial withdrawal symptoms thereafter. One day after reaching the target dose of buprenorphine 24 mg/d, all full agonists were abruptly and completely stopped at day 29 without any symptoms of opioid withdrawal. The patient has now been on buprenorphine treatment for an on-going period of 7 months, abstaining from any additional substance use. Figure 1 illustrates SOWS scores in relation to daily doses of buprenorphine and combined full agonists. For the latter, we calculated methadone equivalent daily doses by using the following ratio: oral DAM:methadone 8:1.23
Figure 1
Figure 1

Daily buprenorphine dose (mg), full agonist dose (in MEQDD), and SOWS scores of case 2.
Table 2
Table 2

Opioid doses, withdrawal symptoms, cravings, and mental state in case 2
Discussion
The two case reports illustrate that buprenorphine maintenance can be induced by overlapping with street heroin use or OMT with high-dosed full µ-agonists. Both patients tolerated the induction well and experienced only very mild opioid withdrawal and craving. Twice, the first patient had experienced the conventional method of buprenorphine induction (ie, induction after more than 4 hours since using street heroin and in the presence of clear objective symptoms of withdrawal) as very difficult. She reported substantially fewer symptoms with the Bernese method.
While the duration until stable buprenorphine dosing may be longer than with the conventional method, the Bernese method of overlapping induction may have considerable advantages. It may be helpful for patients fearing withdrawal or experiencing severe symptoms during conventional induction. It may be associated with fewer and less severe opioid withdrawal symptoms. Furthermore, it is no longer necessary to wait for these before induction. In addition to the discomfort, opioid withdrawal may lead to dropout during the induction process. In fact, the slightly better treatment retention with methadone compared to buprenorphine seems to be related to higher dropout rates during the first 2 weeks.9,24 In our experience, some patients are deterred from buprenorphine treatment because they fear these symptoms. Moreover, providers may be reluctant to use buprenorphine due to the complex conventional induction method. With overlapping induction, buprenorphine can be initiated directly, independent of last opioid use and type of full agonist used. This is particularly important considering the repeated cycling in and out of treatment observed in OMT.25
The Bernese method may also be beneficial when a switch to buprenorphine is desired for patients maintained on a full µ-agonist such as methadone, slow-release oral morphine sulfate, or DAM. With the conventional induction method, tapering of the full µ-agonist, for example to 30–40 mg methadone per day, is recommended before buprenorphine is initiated.8 Furthermore, it is again necessary to wait for objective signs of withdrawal.4 Both prerequisites do not apply with the Bernese method: buprenorphine can be increased gradually with overlapping use of the full agonist maintenance dose. Once the target dose is reached, the full agonists can be stopped abruptly. Hess et al26 have previously described a method of switching from doses between 70 and 100 mg methadone, but used transdermal patches and a quicker scheme of dose increases. In our clinical experience, this scheme can also lead to substantial withdrawal symptoms. More research into these methods is necessary to investigate tolerability and symptomatology.
Comparing both our cases, it is noteworthy that the dose increase in case 2 was done slower and in smaller steps. This cautious strategy was chosen for two reasons. First, the patient was on high doses of full µ-agonists, likely increasing the danger of precipitated withdrawal compared to patient 1 who used street heroin containing an unknown, but most probably lower, full µ-agonist dose. Second, as patient 2 had stabilized well during treatment with full µ-agonists, we did not want to jeopardize the improvements by inducing buprenorphine too rapidly. Taken together, our cases can be regarded as representative of the wide spectrum of opioid-dependent persons, from sniffers of street heroin on one hand to users of high doses of full µ-agonists on the other.
Several questions remain open and need to be addressed in systematic studies. The Bernese method should be directly compared to conventional induction with randomized study designs to determine whether it is generally associated with better tolerability. Such studies could also investigate whether there is an impact of the induction process on the outcome of further OMT, in particular cycling in and out of treatment, or whether there are subpopulations of patients for which a specific induction procedure is preferable. Other issues concern the ideal starting dose for buprenorphine, the optimal dose increase scheme, and whether this is influenced by blood levels and type of full µ-agonist used. It is unclear whether there are critical thresholds in buprenorphine dosing that may lead to pharmacodynamic changes. Our second patient was kept on a daily dose of 6 mg buprenorphine for 10 days, because we did not want to increase the dose without medical supervision during his vacation. He experienced the strongest, albeit still mild, symptoms with buprenorphine doses of 3–6 mg.
Likewise, in pre-existing OMT, it is unknown which buprenorphine dose allows cessation of the full µ-agonist without producing opioid withdrawal. This dose is likely determined by the dose of the full agonist used in OMT. Future studies should collect data on blood levels of buprenorphine and full agonists.
Our cases illustrate that overlapping induction of buprenorphine while being on full µ-agonists is feasible. We hope to stimulate more research in this area, which will, ideally, lead to a better tolerable, more patient-oriented induction of buprenorphine treatment, and diversification of opioids in OMT.
Footnotes

Author contributions
All authors contributed toward data analysis, drafting and critically revising the paper and agree to be accountable for all aspects of the work.


Disclosure
The authors report no conflicts of interest in this work.

Article information
Subst Abuse Rehabil. 2016; 7: 99–105.
Published online 2016 Jul 20. doi: 10.2147/SAR.S109919
PMCID: PMC4959756
PMID: 27499655
Robert Hämmig,1 Antje Kemter,2 Johannes Strasser,2 Ulrich von Bardeleben,1 Barbara Gugger,1 Marc Walter,2 Kenneth M Dürsteler,2 and Marc Vogel2
1Division of Addiction, University Psychiatric Services Bern, Bern, Switzerland
2Division of Substance Use and Addictive Disorders, University of Basel Psychiatric Hospital, Basel, Switzerland
Correspondence: Marc Vogel, Division of Substance Use and Addictive Disorders, University of Basel Psychiatric Hospital, Wilhelm Klein-Strasse 27, 4012 Basel, Switzerland, Tel +41 61 325 5111, Fax +41 61 325 5583, Email [email protected]

Copyright © 2016 Hämmig et al. This work is published and licensed by Dove Medical Press Limited
The full terms of this license are available at https://www.dovepress.com/terms.php and incorporate the Creative Commons Attribution – Non Commercial (unported, v3.0) License (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/). By accessing the work you hereby accept the Terms. Non-commercial uses of the work are permitted without any further permission from Dove Medical Press Limited, provided the work is properly attributed.
Articles from Substance Abuse and Rehabilitation are provided here courtesy of Dove Press
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I am glad there is an alternative used systematically enough to have its own name already, the Bernese method. It seems based on what users and treatment folks are saying, that buprenorphine is very helpful, seemingly even uniquely so, for some kinds of addicts and habitués, and there is potential in buprenorphine which is not being realised because it is often not being used properly or in the way in which it can have the best effect.

I would suggest the drug of choice as the full agonist unless there is an obvious supply or ethical issue like it being carfentanil or a self-synthesised supply of something completely new and/or obscure which the clinic is not set up to make like etonitazene. As another member posted in another thread about maintenance and detoxification, if the patient is on their DOC and feeling well or high, that provides the situation in which the patient will be best and most willing to provide the most and the most useful information to the treatment staff, because they feel better and have reason to believe that the treatment will be rational and has a good chance to help them.

Then after this, maybe some tweaks to make logistics a bit easier in the middle, though it could be simpler than lots of folks think. There was always a lot made of extended-release or long-acting drugs to prevent hills and valleys of serum drug level and the craving and high, but that is proving even not to be really helpful even for chronic pain patients, and I would think that people being inducted into maintenance or detoxification could be even less well served. There is still a case perhaps for using them at various points in treatment and they do of course make maintenance a lot easier to administer . . . I always thought in the past that if a pharmaceutical which is essentially Kadian H, SmackContin, Horse Continus, Gear-dol Retard &c would be invented and put on the market, that this extended-release could be given 1-4 times a day, then the 8 mg diamorphine tablets a couple of companies already make can be provided for cravings . . . then I see the results of the dry amps of smack in Switzerland and the supervised injection site in Canada and that makes me think -- hmm, maybe just assure they can get gear when they need it, and clean needles and so forth . . .

On the long-lasting opioid trail -- get levorphanol out of the hands of the people now charging $100US+ a tablet for it and one may have an even better, easier and cheaper to make, and pharmacologically better-understood long-acting full agonist opioid. The racaemate, Dromoran (racemorphan) which is levorphanol and DXO mixed together, could have uncommon usefulness especially with people with co-morbid depression, given what they are finding out about DXM as an adjuvant to other drugs and doing good things by itself in cases of intractable depression, and I think that the researchers are interested in the effect on OCD and PTSD too.


Of course, they should inquire if the patient has a needle fixation which has caused problems -- it could be that it hasn't . . . if it has, it likely is abscesses and things related to that; poor injection technique could cause problems too . . . I think the most common needle problem is improper disposal, but a user coming for maintenance and detoxification may not be likely to be the type to just throw them on the ground and all that. Track marks could impede any social and economic reintegration they may be needing to do, like with a new employer or whatever. Track marks at various levels of development can be worked with cosmetically if need be and there are some surprisingly simple techniques using just regular lotions and so forth that can keep them from developing and getting worse. Good nutrition can help too, as not having enough B and D complex vitamins and E amongst other things contribute to bad skin in general.

This all shows that needles are not trouble ipso facto -- all sorts of people are prescribed injectable medications by their doctors and administer them every day including IV, IM, SC, and some even less common routes with no trouble at all. All these decades I have used everything from Toradol to Numorphan to Procrit to iron to betamethasone with hypos at home on doctors' orders, the worst thing that happened to me was when a needle would fly out from my hand shaking, so they started giving me butterfly needles too and showed me various techniques . . . .

. .. .and there are some people who are using narcotics and heroin is what they can get, but maybe something else works better for them, maybe they have been using putative street "H" and it really has been shit that does little for a short time but makes them sort of sick and otherwise feeling like shit, like fentanyl, Upjohn 44770, benzos and other crap, and there is a solution for them which could be healthier and less disruptive -- in the latter case it could be real heroin, and it could be the various forms of methadone or buprenorphine, the extended-release DHC, M, or hydromorphone, oxymorphone, even Perduretas, or a super-potent version of Tussionex specially made for maintaining addicts and for extreme chronic pain cases, injected hydromorphone, sublingual and patch buprenorphine, hydromorphone nasal spray, levomethadone linctus, various forms of piritramide, snorted oxymorphone, sublingual dextromoramide, or two new suggestions I can think of -- starting out supervised injection acetylmorphone or nicomorphine or other morphine (or oxymorphone or hydromorphone) esters with an option to spray them up their nose, so with acetylmorphone there is the benefit of both supervised heroin injection and hydromorphone injection, other esters of morphine were used as heroin replacements in the past, and the oxymorphone esters would be a step further
Getting something specially euphoric with a strong rush to satisfy hard-core folks so as to get them into the system to start the process is a strategy which has always been suggested by many, with the sought effect of short-circuiting having to score on the street. Oxymorphone esters are not currently manufactured and have not been used in medicine, but dipipanone and its very close relative phenadoxone have. What I have suggested is to give folks a kit with 1 to 3 days of needles and syringes, sterile saline, cookers or a similar technology, swabs, ties, and oral IR and oral ER dipipanone to maintain them, and powder dipipanone they can shoot, snort, or even stir into a glass of water to supplement the IR tablets for cravings, and of course powder or ampoules of the potentiators, since it is the cyclizine in Diconal which causes it to hit so hard, and hydroxyzine is a stronger very close relative of cyclizine (I took injectable phenadoxone and injectable hydroxyzine for extreme breakthrough pain years ago on doctors' orders and it was very effective) . . . maybe a voucher for a small bit of C-Jam to mix in with it?

Naturally any injectable, and I would say any buprenorphine product of any type needs to go out the door with ampoules of naloxone and/or the new nasal spray . . .
 
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I did this method when i got down to 30mg of methadone. Within 2 weeks i was off both almost painlessly
 
So could I possibly try it if I were using heroin and I started microdosing Subutex? That's what it sounds like.
 
Thank you so much! I'll check out the thread.

Alot of those
So could I possibly try it if I were using heroin and I started microdosing Subutex? That's what it sounds like.

Yes you could. Like i said you may get very very mild withdrawal but coming from me, someone who curled in a ball from withdrawal, it's totally bearable.
You can pm me anytime you want if you have questions, i was a Guinea pig at my clinic so I've read extensively on the subject, but nothing beats first hand experience.
 
so awesome. Ive been on subutex before, but its been a while. Probably should start weaning a touch since my habbit is ample. thanks again!
 
so awesome. Ive been on subutex before, but its been a while. Probably should start weaning a touch since my habbit is ample. thanks again!


No problem, if i can help 1 person in any way get clean, it makes up for some of the dumb shit i have done on drugs lol

I tapered my methadone down to 30mg before i started subs. If your h habit is big you can cut down a bit but there was also a few people at the clinic who were on heroin and 150mg of methadone. And most took well except for 1 who left the second day.
 
So when using the bernese method, is the idea to still be on a low dose of heroin/methadone/fentanyl while starting to take very small doses of suboxone (.02 mg)? While at the same time while slowly increasing the suboxone while simultaneously lowering the use of the heroin/methadone/fentanyl?
 
No problem, if i can help 1 person in any way get clean, it makes up for some of the dumb shit i have done on drugs lol

I tapered my methadone down to 30mg before i started subs. If your h habit is big you can cut down a bit but there was also a few people at the clinic who were on heroin and 150mg of methadone. And most took well except for 1 who left the second day.
Hey I could use your help. I am all on board to try the bernese method. I have found a few different dosing charts to go by. My only dilemma is do I take the sub first or the opiate? And how long do I wait between taking the sub and opiate. I am so afraid of getting PWD. I have had them before and will never go through them again if I can help it. Honestly the fear of them is the only reason I am still using street drugs.
 
Good questions.
While still using heroin, a microdosing schedule/induction of buprenorphine/naloxone starting at 0.2 mg daily and titrating up to 12 mg daily over 9 days, with gradual reduction and eventual cessation of heroin. Since most users don't want to experience the discomfort of withdrawal is the reason why the Bernese method works so well - there are no precipitated withdrawals or need for withdrawal from opiates prior to induction. The way it works is that small amounts of buprenorphine doses do not precipitate opioid withdrawal, but because of its relatively long half-life, accumulates at the receptor gradually replacing the full μ-agonist (e.g. fentanyl, heroin) at the opioid receptor.
 
Good questions.
While still using heroin, a microdosing schedule/induction of buprenorphine/naloxone starting at 0.2 mg daily and titrating up to 12 mg daily over 9 days, with gradual reduction and eventual cessation of heroin. Since most users don't want to experience the discomfort of withdrawal is the reason why the Bernese method works so well - there are no precipitated withdrawals or need for withdrawal from opiates prior to induction. The way it works is that small amounts of buprenorphine doses do not precipitate opioid withdrawal, but because of its relatively long half-life, accumulates at the receptor gradually replacing the full μ-agonist (e.g. fentanyl, heroin) at the opioid receptor.
I’m up to 1.5mg of sub. Started at .2 and worked my way up to here. And still using fentdope. I think today is the day I go for it. How much I’m gonna add another 2mg sub tonight. We’re outta gray, so it’s happening today.
 
Thank you for such a quick reply.
Have you tried this. How’s it going? I’m on day 3. Just subs. (4mg each today) No more fent. Ugh. It’s doable. But it ain’t easy. Not by any stretch. Any help or pointers? We are sticking it out this time. It needs to happen. Just not sure how long the hellishness will last.
 
I’m up to 1.5mg of sub. Started at .2 and worked my way up to here. And still using fentdope. I think today is the day I go for it. How much I’m gonna add another 2mg sub tonight. We’re outta gray, so it’s happening today.
Yep, you are good to go! It's just the ritual that your doing at this point. Congratulations!!!! People don't realize how great of a method this is which is a shame, because the waiting/transition time is scares people into not trying to get off junk. So happy for you.
 
Yep, you are good to go! It's just the ritual that your doing at this point. Congratulations!!!! People don't realize how great of a method this is which is a shame, because the waiting/transition time is scares people into not trying to get off junk. So happy for you.
Thank you!!! I had a feeling it would work. Most of us have “slipped up” while on subs and gone right back to taking them w/o issue, so it would make sense. As long as you get enough sun in there, eventually, you’re ok. Now if I can solve the mysterious vomiting wife issue, we will be in good shape!
 
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