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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Suboxone and NDMA antagonist

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Friesthem

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 27, 2020
Messages
43
Anyone have experience with bupremorphine / suboxone and NDMA antagonists?
 
HOOH said:
I can't imagine then having a good synergy
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Why do you say that? I know nothing about science or chemistry. But there are many studies that NDMA antags, amplify the analgesic effects of morphine. Easy google search and you’ll get some papers. I’ve tried with Tapentadol, before I stopped that lifestyle, and currently on subs. The amplified the tapentadol massively. I’d take 50% less sometimes, and be wayyyy to high , that wasn’t even enjoyable. I’d walk for hours, to keep myself awake, just so I wouldn’t go home, and fall asleep/perhaps OD.
 
Friesthem said:
Why do you say that? I know nothing about science or chemistry. But there are many studies that NDMA antags, amplify the analgesic effects of morphine. Easy google search and you’ll get some papers. I’ve tried with Tapentadol, before I stopped that lifestyle, and currently on subs. The amplified the tapentadol massively. I’d take 50% less sometimes, and be wayyyy to high , that wasn’t even enjoyable. I’d walk for hours, to keep myself awake, just so I wouldn’t go home, and fall asleep/perhaps OD.
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Of course they amplify the analgesia, NMDA antagonists are analgesics in of themselves. But I am also assuming that the dissociation would reduce the opioid euphoria, as dissos have a very clinical, cold feeling compared to the warmth of opioids.
 
HOOH said:
Of course they amplify the analgesia, NMDA antagonists are analgesics in of themselves. But I am also assuming that the dissociation would reduce the opioid euphoria, as dissos have a very clinical, cold feeling compared to the warmth of opioids.
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Dissociatives and opioids are a weird, weird couple. Of some molecules the L-isomer is an opioid and the R-one a disso. Paper tells that dissociatives will abolish the rewarding effects of opioids but they don't imho, in my experience they can make a pretty euphoric combo but it's still nothing one wants to do daily. Both together not just added, but potentiated their inhibition lowering, psychotomimetic (psychosis like) and justification impairing effects. There is some cross tolerance, and dissos tend to abolish opioid withdrawal / tolerance - which I guess is what the OP is questioning.

For maintenance, specially withdrawal it could well make sense to add some NMDA antagonist to subuxone/buprenorphine and maybe ultra-low dose naltrexone (microgram range!!). Maybe you'll even notice after a while that you don't need the sub anymore at all - at least I could just stop from 2mg sub when I was doing O-PCM daily - not that I recommend the latter but it's one of the lesser damaging arylcyclohexylamines. Unfortunately we only have memantine, DXM and ketamine available clinically and many docs refuse to prescribe the first, even more the last.

Dissociation tends to be cold when pure, yeah - it took me a while to grasp that because both DXM and MXE are pretty warm in the beginnings but tolerance to this warmth (which is indeed serotonergic in nature and not directly opioidergic) develops actually faster than that to dissociation, making people believe the magic was lost when it's just like MDMA tolerance. Took me a full disso addiction to realize that strong dissociation isn't what I'm looking for, lol.
But NMDA antags also potentiate many other things when used in low dosages. Moderation is the key here.,
 
Guys, we need a point of clarification here, as acronyms are running riot on our effective communication :rolleyes:

This is where my knowledge gets put to the test, as I have little understanding of this specific subject. N-Methyl-D-Aspartate antagonists include dissociative drugs like Ketamine. right? On the flipside, I understand that drugs like Methadone have "affinity for the NMDA receptor" which would make it an agonist, right? Which are we actually talking about, because it seems that both agonists and antagonists can have a positive impact on pain but by different mechanisms. They say that Methadone's NMDA activity is a factor in its usefulness as a pain medication and Ketamine obviously reduces pain and can even induce anesthesia. Just a little confusing.
 
I tend to label drugs after their primary mechanism of effect, e.g. dissociatives: N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptors antagonists but methadone: opioid - its activity at NMDA is likely to contribute to its efficacy against pain but too weak to significantly reduce tolerance development (and imho it likely has tertiary effects in vivo, as its stronger withdrawal isn't entirely explainable by mu and NMDA).

Anesthesia needs definition too xD like opioid "anesthesia" is overdose (requires mechanical ventilation) while dissociative anesthesia isn't that dangerous for a healthy subject. Both, opioids and dissociative drugs, have pain-masking/-killing effects, sometimes to the point of not feeling an injury until the drug weaned off, and they sum up when combined, yeah
 
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