Ethnobotanicals Some questions about Kava

[BlueBull]

Hi everyone

I'm a regular (daily) kratom user. I am tapering down my kratom usage a bit because it was getting out of control (50-60 grams per day). I have already tapered down considerably (to about 30g daily) and the next step will be to start skipping days and taper further down to 20g per session and only one single session every other day, in stead of two sessions each day. However I do like the relaxing and anxiolytic effects that it produces so to be able to relax a bit at the end of a long day, I decided to give Kava a try temporarily, with the intention of only using it every other day when I'm not using kratom and to stop using the Kava in the next step and only use kratom every other day. So it's a temporary thing, I'm not planning on using it long-term

I have some questions concerning Kava, since I'm completely new to it

1) What is the (true) addiction potential of this drug? Almost everywhere I read that it has none. However people used to say that about Kratom as well and I definitely know that that has potential for physical dependency . Of course anything can be psychologically dependence-forming, I'm wondering specifically about physical dependency and looking for people that know this because of experience, not because of what it theoretically should be
2) Is there cross-tolerance between Kava and Kratom? I suspect there is not, from what I can gather the pharmacodynamics are completely different, yes?
3) Do you think my plan to alternate temporarily between Kratom and Kava to be sensible? If not, why?
4) Am I correct in thinking, from looking at the pharmacodynamics, that Kava should not be combined with monoamine releasers, modulators or even reuptake or oxidase inhibitors? Since it has multiple inhibiting and potentiating properties across multiple monoamines
5) Is there anything else I should be aware of? I will of course read some guides and experience reports but is there anything I might miss?

For added info: the form of Kava I have is the instant one which you don't need to prepare, just add it to a drink and it's good to go

Thanks in advance!

BB

 

[G_Chem]

1.) Less addictive than Kratom but the potential is still there.

2.) No cross tolerance.

3.) I think it’s worth a try but I personally found Kava to lack a bit in the euphoria department compared to Kratom. It’ll definitely relax you and make you sleepy though.

4.) Not sure the answer to this question.

5.) Kava can supposedly have a negative effect on the kidneys, it felt taxing to me but others say if you use the straight root it’s better than extracts in this regard.

-GC

 

[falsifiedhypothesi]

I think that's a pretty rough taper regimen, but if it works for you that's great. I haven't done much research on kava but I know it can be addictive. If you got into that kind of pattern with kratom I don't think the every other day schedule is realistic, it would seem to me to make cheat days very easy,

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I am also curious in revisiting kava yet I've never had a good experience with it. It always left more of a funny taste in my mouth more than any real recreational effects however I was likely doing it wrong. I bought a half kilo once of what I assumed was fresh product. I made a crude extract black paste and even that wasn't good. Maybe I just had bad kava. I've never felt anything more than a very very light almost imperceptible buzz.

I'd like to try it again, maybe alcohol replacement.

@BlueBull epic taper bro grats. It starts getting a lot easier under 30g. I would advise to not start skipping days until you're below 20. I would just take half or full gram off the dose per day and it was painless.

 

[BlueBull]

1.) Less addictive than Kratom but the potential is still there.

2.) No cross tolerance.

3.) I think it’s worth a try but I personally found Kava to lack a bit in the euphoria department compared to Kratom. It’ll definitely relax you and make you sleepy though.

4.) Not sure the answer to this question.

5.) Kava can supposedly have a negative effect on the kidneys, it felt taxing to me but others say if you use the straight root it’s better than extracts in this regard.

-GC

Awesome, thank you very much @G_Chem . I indeed read that Kava is less euphoric but since Kratom, because of tolerance, only produces relaxation but hardly any euphoria anymore, that wouldn't be an issue. I'm going to think it over some more and maybe give it a shot. Still not sure. I also read about it being taxing on the kidneys indeed, there are also reports about liver damage but it could be that the latter ones are based on bad science. In any case, if I do go through with it I'm going to make sure to drink enough to keep my kidneys properly hydrated. That is a big "if" though, after the replies I've gotten here

I think that's a pretty rough taper regimen, but if it works for you that's great. I haven't done much research on kava but I know it can be addictive. If you got into that kind of pattern with kratom I don't think the every other day schedule is realistic, it would seem to me to make cheat days very easy,

Thank you! It is indeed a pretty fast tapering regimen however there is an aspect I haven't mentioned. I'm using agmatine sulphate to help with the tapering and that stuff really works, I have almost no withdrawal even with such a fast taper. I also mentioned going to 20g per session, going from two to one session per day and using only every other day but I'm planning to do that in three steps, not at once. So first I'm going down to 20g, then after a while go from two sessions to one and then after a while start skipping days, not sure about the order I'm going to do that in yet but that is the plan

And indeed, I do have a propensity for forming habits rather quickly, I'm...let's say "addicted to not being sober", which will probably sound familiar as it is pretty common among drug users. Now that you both mention it does have addictive properties I'm hesitant to try it indeed. So if I understand you correctly, you are talking about physical addiction right, not mental habituation? Also, perhaps in stead of every other day it would be wise to increase the gaps judging from your reply. That is probably a good idea, yes, I'll do that. Maybe twice a week if I can manage that

I am also curious in revisiting kava yet I've never had a good experience with it. It always left more of a funny taste in my mouth more than any real recreational effects however I was likely doing it wrong. I bought a half kilo once of what I assumed was fresh product. I made a crude extract black paste and even that wasn't good. Maybe I just had bad kava. I've never felt anything more than a very very light almost imperceptible buzz.

I'd like to try it again, maybe alcohol replacement.

@BlueBull epic taper bro grats. It starts getting a lot easier under 30g. I would advise to not start skipping days until you're below 20. I would just take half or full gram off the dose per day and it was painless.

If I go through with it, I'll let you know how it went and how much I took and how, to give you an idea. I do not have the raw form though, the form I have is already prepared, extracted and then dehydrated, so I just need to add water. It's also from just about the most widely known source worldwide, so should be good. This form is called "instant Kava"

It's indeed a fast taper, but see my reply above to @falsifiedhypothesi for an explanation on how I'm able to do that. I'll keep that in mind and only start skipping days below 20g, might first go from two sessions to one session then. At this time I'm tapering by decreasing by a gram every two days, so indeed about a half gram each day. So far it's going pretty smoothly, except for feeling like a wreck in the morning, but that disappears half an hour after I take 1500mg of agmatine

Thanks for the advice guys, you're awesome. Damnit, I wrote an entire novel in reply again, I started off with "I'm going to try to keep this short"

 

[negrogesic]

I'd strongly recommend getting some black seed oil capsules (i like healths harmony brand as some others are too strong). It really takes the edge off kratom withdrawal due to its similar ion channel blocking properties. Really helps with the
restlessness and inner tension that kratom withdrawal can produce (which is the really the worst part about kratom withdrawal). Also seems to somehow upregulate opioid receptors. The black seed oil might be a better choice all together as it reduces the root of the issue whereas kava kava is essentially like taking a shot of alcohol.

I find kratom tricky to taper and at 30g I'd probably just cold turkey. An agmatine, black seed oil, ibuprofen and low dose caffeine combo can really cut down on the severity. Fortunately kratom withdrawal is pretty short, although the depression can last for a while.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

I find kratom tricky to taper and at 30g I'd probably just cold turkey.

I find this very interesting. Kratom is the only substance that I found easy to taper. These days if I'm honest with myself I can't really tell the difference between dosing 10g vs 14g. Where as cold turkey off 30 felt like hell.

 

[BlueBull]

I'd strongly recommend getting some black seed oil capsules (i like healths harmony brand as some others are too strong). It really takes the edge off kratom withdrawal due to its similar ion channel blocking properties. Really helps with the
restlessness and inner tension that kratom withdrawal can produce (which is the really the worst part about kratom withdrawal). Also seems to somehow upregulate opioid receptors. The black seed oil might be a better choice all together as it reduces the root of the issue whereas kava kava is essentially like taking a shot of alcohol.

I find kratom tricky to taper and at 30g I'd probably just cold turkey. An agmatine, black seed oil, ibuprofen and low dose caffeine combo can really cut down on the severity. Fortunately kratom withdrawal is pretty short, although the depression can last for a while.

I had indeed read about black seed oil but didn't know it had such a powerful effect on Kratom withdrawal. Interesting. I might add that to my taper if the withdrawal increases. So far it's almost non-existent with just the agmatine. I do think, like Snafu, that going cold turkey from 30g would be extremely uncomfortable. Besides, it's not my intention to quit, just to taper down a lot and decrease frequency of use as well. Thanks for your reply

I find this very interesting. Kratom is the only substance that I found easy to taper. These days if I'm honest with myself I can't really tell the difference between dosing 10g vs 14g. Where as cold turkey off 30 felt like hell.

Yeah I noticed that as well. Less is really more with Kratom. My initial dose is at the moment 6g (x2 sessions) but it used to be 15g. The difference is not that large, except 15g made me way more drowsy

 

[somnilicious]

I've never found kava to be addictive at all. I've used it for the exact same purpose as you speak of... Kava is one of the only substances that I can use guilt free without having to worry about withdrawal or kindling.

 

[Xorkoth]

I have never heard of anyone getting physically addicted to kava. Mentally, well, it depends, anything can be mentally addictive. Some people really enjoy it. Personally, I find it quite lackluster and inconsistent, a few times I have had very enjoyable euphoric rushes, but most times it's been very subtle, even almost to the point of placebo. And I'm talking from the same batch that got me nicely high. It also lasts quite a short time. I've used it to help with coming off kratom a number of times. Mostly, for me, it fills the role of "taking something to feel better", even if it only makes me feel slightly better.

 

[BlueBull]

So, I tried it yesterday. I was too curious to not at least give it a shot

First dose was 15g, which should be a medium to high dose of the "instant kava" stuff. There is no preparation involved with this form of kava, just add water and it's good to go. Taste was veeeery weird (someone called it "ginger cocaine plant root milk sap" and that is spot on) and it burned in my throat a bit, like mild liquor, which is never a good sign and looking back was a bit of an omen.

Effects were okay, really subtle like already mentioned in this thread but still enjoyable, very very mild euphoria but it was still there, pretty pronounced anxiolytic effects. Then I decided after 1,5h to try a small redose (3,5g). This turned out to be a big mistake. I normally have a cast iron stomach that never gets unsettled no matter the drug (well, except for DOC) so I don't know what the deal was but I got very bad stomach pains, a feeling like a brick was laying on the bottom of my stomach and pretty bad nausea as well. Had to sit with a bucket at my side the rest of the night (didn't puke though). So, this stuff is going straight in the garbage bin, the subtle effects are not worth the body load to me, yuck

Thanks again for all the replies I got, it really helped a lot

 

[BlueBull]

I have never heard of anyone getting physically addicted to kava. Mentally, well, it depends, anything can be mentally addictive. Some people really enjoy it. Personally, I find it quite lackluster and inconsistent, a few times I have had very enjoyable euphoric rushes, but most times it's been very subtle, even almost to the point of placebo. And I'm talking from the same batch that got me nicely high. It also lasts quite a short time. I've used it to help with coming off kratom a number of times. Mostly, for me, it fills the role of "taking something to feel better", even if it only makes me feel slightly better.

The variable experiences could perhaps be because of things like stomach content? I read that surrounding factors, like how much you've eaten and how much you slept, have a huge impact with this drug, much more than with most other drugs. That's just theoretical though, obviously not from personal experience