Harm Reduction Shooting in hand, pain in arm

[jhjhsdi]

When i shoot ketamine into the cephalic vein in my hand, I've noticed i get a stinging pain for a few seconds in my arm as the shot goes up, seems to be right in/behind the crook of my elbow.
Also note my crook vein has been collapsed and unusable for a good year or so.

Any thoughts?

 

[MsDiz]

I’m guessing there could be build up there, I would not be using that vein tbh. I’d be worried about phlebitis.

 

[Deru]

^ The only way to avoid that would be to not inject into any vein in that extremity lower than the antecubital vein. If he's injecting into the cephalic when it forms by the hand, it should be pretty significantly diluted into the deep venous system by the time it reaches the cubital fossa region.

With that being said, do you feel the pain travel up your arm or you feel the pain specifically at the cubital fossa region?

 

[jhjhsdi]

I’m guessing there could be build up there

Of?

I would not be using that vein tbh.

Its one of the only good ones i have left in my hand

If he's injecting into the cephalic when it forms by the hand, it should be pretty significantly diluted into the deep venous system by the time it reaches the cubital fossa region.

I thought this but seems to sting every time. I only have a 'session' once or twice a month thesedays - each one probably 2-5 shots. Last night only 3.

With that being said, do you feel the pain travel up your arm or you feel the pain specifically at the cubital fossa region?

No it doesnt travel, just in one spot, and only for a few seconds. It feels kind of like the start of when your missing a shot, bit not as bad, kinda like a stinging nettle..

 

[MsDiz]

Any reddening at the site where you have pain? Is it hot? Tender to the touch?

 

[Deru]

No it doesnt travel, just in one spot, and only for a few seconds. It feels kind of like the start of when your missing a shot, bit not as bad, kinda like a stinging nettle..

This actually sounds like inflammation or infection in or around a specific vessel in your cubital fossa (it's impossible to know which one, except one in that area), and when the solution passes it (even diluted) inflames it and results in pain, possibly even causing leakage into the tissues. Even if you see no redness or swelling, I would definitely avoid that entire extremity for a while and monitor it, if there does happen to be a buildup of scar tissue and bacteria in or around the vessel and it finally gives way, it's on a straight path to your tricuspid valve in your heart which makes your body's ability to mitigate damage compromised. There is just unfortunately no way to 100% completely avoid that area via the venous system below the elbow in that extremity.

 

[Keif' Richards]

I have no medical training and don't really have any confidence in this, but I was under the impression that when we experienced this kind of stinging pain it was often due to aggravating a nerve? I'm actually hoping to learn a little bit more about this.

 

[MsDiz]

This actually sounds like inflammation or infection in or around a specific vessel in your cubital fossa (it's impossible to know which one, except one in that area), and when the solution passes it (even diluted) inflames it and results in pain, possibly even causing leakage into the tissues. Even if you see no redness or swelling, I would definitely avoid that entire extremity for a while and monitor it, if there does happen to be a buildup of scar tissue and bacteria in or around the vessel and it finally gives way, it's on a straight path to your tricuspid valve in your heart which makes your body's ability to mitigate damage compromised. There is just unfortunately no way to 100% completely avoid that area via the venous system below the elbow in that extremity.

Exactly this which is why I said not to use that vein at all for the time being.

Don’t risk it with that vein anymore.

 

[MsDiz]

I have no medical training and don't really have any confidence in this, but I was under the impression that when we experienced this kind of stinging pain it was often due to aggravating a nerve? I'm actually hoping to learn a little bit more about this.

Inflammation of the vein can cause this type of stinging also. Clots close to the surface of the skin can cause this stingy/burning type pain.

 

[jhjhsdi]

Any reddening at the site where you have pain? Is it hot? Tender to the touch?

Nope, none of those things!

This actually sounds like inflammation or infection in or around a specific vessel in your cubital fossa (it's impossible to know which one, except one in that area), and when the solution passes it (even diluted) inflames it and results in pain, possibly even causing leakage into the tissues. Even if you see no redness or swelling, I would definitely avoid that entire extremity for a while and monitor it, if there does happen to be a buildup of scar tissue and bacteria in or around the vessel and it finally gives way, it's on a straight path to your tricuspid valve in your heart which makes your body's ability to mitigate damage compromised.

Hmm i see, well it's been happening for quite a while, ever since that vein collapsed, i highly doubt it's an infection, as I've had a strong 3+ week course of antibiotics (almost a week of having them IV, in that arm too, below the elbow) when I got sepsis from some dental malpractice, which also cleared up the bad infection in my hand in the rotating sites thread in my sig. I was also receiving IV steroids in that arm, and they didnt make it sting.

I've also had some really long breaks and am generally in great health.
I've also noticed that stronger shots sting more, 1ml of water with 100mg doesn't sing, but 1ml with 333mg does, ph balance maybe?
Ket is pretty hard on the veins (I'm not using medical vials in using street crystal that probably isn't 100% pure)

There is just unfortunately no way to 100% completely avoid that area via the venous system below the elbow in that extremity.

I really need to find that basillic! Still never managed to hit it, although haven't really tried, due to the dangers you mentioned and also finding more usable ones below the elbow when tying off at the armpit.

I think I am going to just pass it off as ket being irritating to the veins. But i will really start shooting in my left hand instead, or higher than the elbow.

So could an ultrasound determine if there was an infection? Or show scar tissue? It's not really something i want to go in and waste the NHSs time for.
It only hurts for a second or 2 and then the pain is gone and its not sore after.
The vein in my crook is hard, i can feel it, but I can't get any blood from it.

Thanks for the responses btw peeps

 

[Deru]

I've also had some really long breaks and am generally in great health.
I've also noticed that stronger shots sting more, 1ml of water with 100mg doesn't sing, but 1ml with 333mg does, ph balance maybe?
Ket is pretty hard on the veins (I'm not using medical vials in using street crystal that probably isn't 100% pure)

I've had similar instances, I'm not sure if it was just due to the more acidic solution allowed to leak out through weak points in the vein wall/scar tissue in an already compromised vein. There are no nerves inside the vein to transmit any sensory information to our brain , so it almost certainly has to be a smaller peripheral nerve in the area sending the information to which you interpret it as stinging pain. But, that's where the risk comes, as eventually your body may not be able to handle the inflammation and bacteria may build up - the absolute last place you want to be compromised. Some anecdote here, I was IVing into the vein in my hand that turns into the basilic, I immediately felt a relief of pressure on the opposite side of my arm (I had been feeling almost exactly what you're describing in this area for a while) and then a huge pocket formed in my forearm. I had a 105 degree fever within a few days and was admitted into the hospital with my first case of endocarditis within 10 days.

So could an ultrasound determine if there was an infection? Or show scar tissue?

It would probably already tell you what you know, when they push on the vein it won't collapse properly due to scar tissue. If they can see an infection in or surrounding a superficial vessel with ultrasound, I'd almost have to assume you would be able to visually see signs of your immune system fighting it off.

 

[jhjhsdi]

acidic solution allowed to leak out through weak points in the vein wall/scar tissue in an already compromised vein

This was my first thought tbh, considering how similar it feels to a tiny miss..

then a huge pocket formed in my forearm. I had a 105 degree fever within a few days and was admitted into the hospital with my first case of endocarditis within 10 days

Shit man, yeah I think I'll definitely leave it out on this arm now, unless I can manage to hit the basillic, but I don't really fancy going digging there yet.
Occasionally I am still able to hit the cephalic in the upper bicep, with a massive pump and a 1 inch blue 23g, but usually only once per session.
Really starting to run out of options that don't include feet, legs, groin or neck :/

I always say to myself that I'll just stick to IM, then it comes to loading the spoon and I know I can get the same effect from 1/3rd or less material if I hit a vein, and the idea of the taste and rush won't leave my head.

Have you ever managed to hit your cephalic ABOVE the bicep, where it starts to curve round the front of your shoulder? I've seen them in diagrams but never managed to get them to pop out?