Risks of low-dosed Ketamine as antidepressant?

[Amml]

Hey there,
I searched the forum and I'm sorry if there is already a thread for that, but I wanted to talk about this experience and get your advice!

On the 31th of december a friend gave me a small amount (about 20mg) of pure ketamine (not sure if it was s- or racemic). It was the first time I tried it and didn't get much of a effect from it, I just felt a bit more sluggish and my legs felt heavier when I was moving them. My main interest was actually the anti-depressant effect.
I though it's anti-depressant effect may occur immediately after the main effects have worn off, but after I took the ketamine and the effects wore off I just felt as usually, even a bit exhausted and in a worse mood than before.
About 3-4 days later, and after I had nearly forgotten about the ketamine experience, I noticed that I was feeling much better than usual. I felt new energy and joy, I could sleep better and could better focus on my daily tasks.
I talked with my friend that gave me the ketamine about this mood change and he told me that he also notices the mood-enhancing effects not immediately, but a few days later.

Now my questions are:

• Could the mood-enhancing effect just be placebo or maybe caused by some other factors (I also had holidays from december 23th to now, where I slept nearly 10 hours a day, compared to my usual 6-7h)?
• What psychological and physical risks could occur on the long-term if I take about 20-30mg ketamine once to twice a month as an mood-enhancer/stabilizer?
• Has anyone made similar experiences on mood-enhancement with low-dosed ketamine?

P.S.: I'm aware of the general risks that drugs could bring when taken as a tool to cope with psychological problems, and any advice of you wouldn't lead to irresponsible drug use from my side. I know that ketamine can be quite addictive and harmful, and I'm going to handle this substance with all due respect.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Amml, I'm not ignoring your thread, it's just that the use of Ketamine as an antidepressant is definitely what you might call an esoteric subject. The use of Ketamine as an antidepressant is really just starting to pick up speed and there is quite a bit of conjecture concerning its effectiveness and how to best use it. To be short, it would seem that Ketamine as an antidepressant is an effective option for a lot of people, but the treatment typically consists of slow infusions in multiple instances. More information to come!

 

[Amml]

Ok, thanks for your quick reply! I know that there are only a few studies now according this subject and it's also hyped, but I'd be really interested learning more about it
Atm I'm not able to find any professionals that would offer this treatment, so I'll better wait until there is more information available

 

[Trazodon't]

I personally think that ketamine and psilocybin are the future for the treatment of depression as the current popular drugs seem ineffective for most patients and the hypothesis of low serotonin is losing credibility. Having said that I wouldn't advise people to start self medicating with any drugs. Alcohol relieves depression and anxiety temporarily but often makes things worse in the long run. We just have to hope that the medical community get together on this subject and work together towards better treatment of mood disorders soon.

 

[Amml]

@Trazodon't: I also have experience with classical SSRI's (sertraline). It worked very well in relieving depressive symptoms, but the side effects were enormous. I nearly lost my ability to have orgasm and had some serious head twitches and brain zaps months after discontinuation, and this only after a low dose treatment for one month. Therefore I'm open to any new information about possible antidepressants with lower side effects. My depression now is nearly gone and I'm not in need of any medication (I also visit a psychologist several times in a month), but I want to have some kind of medication that is low in side effects and I can rely on if I relapse into my old state.

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

I think clinically the mood improvement (if its successful) is supposed to be pretty darn rapid, and this is the major selling point (for rapid resolution of suicidal depression, compared to SSRIs which typically have a delay). But there are reasons as to why mood improvement could be delayed by a few days or more.

As an example, a big component of ketamine's efficacy seems to be that a metabolite stimulates something called mTOR which helps the ribosomes of cells construct new proteins. But there is going to be a delay between mTOR stimulation -> protein creation -> protein incorporation into cells -> a change in brain function/mood.

Depending on how far proteins have to be transported across a cell (e.g. from the soma to a dendrite or axon) it can take many days via axonal transport

CY

 

[d1nach]

1. How do you know it was pure ketamine?
2. I dont think its possible to know if your change in mood days later had any relation to the what was called ketamine?
3. How do we know that that dose of ketamine at that frequency is effective as a antidepressant or mood stabilizer
4. I took dxm heavily like daily for years so im definitely not antiketamine i just dont think based on what youve said you can draw any answers.

 

[d1nach]

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,31&q=ketamine+rat+antidepressant+&btnG=

Here you go endless research papers on if ketamine has antidepressant like effects and possible mechanisms

 

[Cotcha Yankinov]

3. How do we know that that dose of ketamine at that frequency is effective as a antidepressant or mood stabilizer

That reminds me, normally therapeutic ketamine is given in an IV infusion slowly over time, and there is some talk about IV being very different than oral with regards to oral ingestion resulting in less of the anti-depressant metabolite in question (HNK)

 

[Amml]

1. How do you know it was pure ketamine?
2. I dont think its possible to know if your change in mood days later had any relation to the what was called ketamine?
3. How do we know that that dose of ketamine at that frequency is effective as a antidepressant or mood stabilizer
4. I took dxm heavily like daily for years so im definitely not antiketamine i just dont think based on what youve said you can draw any answers.

It was isolated from a ketamine ampulla for veterinary use, and the friend that gave it to me was watching the isolation, so I can be really sure it was pure ketamine. The ampulla was also legally purchased, so no risk of faking.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Okay, so I'm back. I feel like we can keep this open. Maybe it's not directly related to immediate, potential harm to an individual, but I think major depression and the consequences that come with it are worth discussing. We lose a lot of good people to depression.

Ketamine appears to be of the most significant advances in treatment for depression in decades. The effects seem to be rapid and nearly immediate. I'm not aware of how recreational Ketamine effects an individual's depression, but as a lot of you know, Ketamine treatment for depression is typically given by intravenous infusion over the course of an hour and it's given at near non-psychoactive dosages. I can only assume that there is a reason that the drug is given by slow infusion and not as a simple prescription. I'm willing to wager that there is a reason for this and that recreational use will probably not bring the same immediate, positive effect.

I've heard of MD's using Ketamine in the emergency department to treat suicidal patients in an immediate way with astounding results. I believe that this and psychedelics are going to be the most promising antidepressants to come along in a long, long time. I see Ketamine clinics popping up all over the place too. Years ago, it was New York City and Los Angeles. Now they are all over the place, so I can only imagine that it's effective!