Reference to "Your First Cycle"

[GrymReefer]

I was wondering why there was no reference to using HCG throughout the cycle all the way up to the beginning of your PCT? Using HCG in conjunction with a well planned cycle would prevent testicular atrophy and also mimics the body's natural LH production and keeps its own endogenous testosterone production going. Just a thought. I'm not bashing or attempting to undermine the writer who took the time to craft the helpful guide. Just an educated argument.
I know it is extremely rare, but if one were to deprive their own testes of LH, then it is possible to create an environment in which the Leydig cells could become unresponsive. I guess you could also cause the same desensitization effect via blasting the testes with too high of doses of HCG, but only someone asking for trouble would most likely do that. I personally wouldn't use more than 400-500 IU/week on cycle.

I know HCG is also involved in synthesis of quite a few key components that are beneficial on cycle and help with reducing the intensity of hormonal fluctuation.

I was just wondering why it was not included in the first cycle or at least put in as a "optional" to run only with your cycle, but stop before you begin your PCT due to the suppressive nature.

 

[Desohigh]

In our country, everyone uses HCG for PCT or HCG during cycles.
But in this forum, they don't recommend any HCG which is key in fast recovery IMO.

 

[GrymReefer]

IMO, HCG should only be used for on-cycle purposes because it is a LH analogue and allows the testes to never begin the process of atrophy. HCG would be too suppressive for PCT. It may allow the testes to continue in the synthesis of testosterone, but it hinders the anterior pituitary gland's recovery process due to the body recognizing an exogenous source that nullifies the need to restart the production at that point in the axis. Have you successfully used HCG during your PCT before?

 

[Genetic Freak]

I was wondering why there was no reference to using HCG throughout the cycle all the way up to the beginning of your PCT? Using HCG in conjunction with a well planned cycle would prevent testicular atrophy and also mimics the body's natural LH production and keeps its own endogenous testosterone production going. Just a thought. I'm not bashing or attempting to undermine the writer who took the time to craft the helpful guide. Just an educated argument.
I know it is extremely rare, but if one were to deprive their own testes of LH, then it is possible to create an environment in which the Leydig cells could become unresponsive. I guess you could also cause the same desensitization effect via blasting the testes with too high of doses of HCG, but only someone asking for trouble would most likely do that. I personally wouldn't use more than 400-500 IU/week on cycle.

I know HCG is also involved in synthesis of quite a few key components that are beneficial on cycle and help with reducing the intensity of hormonal fluctuation.

I was just wondering why it was not included in the first cycle or at least put in as a "optional" to run only with your cycle, but stop before you begin your PCT due to the suppressive nature.

I see where you are coming from, upon consultation with other Moderators I might consider implementing your suggestion..

Previously our reasoning for omitting hCG in a first cycle has been due to our policy of minimal polypharmacy for maximum therapeutic effect here in SD..
There has been research suggesting hCG could desensitise leydig cells at high doses, unfortunately some people especially on here don't adhere to advise on correct dosage and consider more is best, that can lead to undesired effects...

I appreciate when HPTA is suppressed it can effect synthesis of Pregnenolone and DHEA, if application of hCG on cycle can create a healthier on-cycle environment I'm willing to look into your suggestion....

Thoughts from other Mods pls....

 

[GrymReefer]

It was just an observation based upon my small personal experience messing with hormones. I was hesitant to even post that opinion considering someone would read it and take it as an absolute fact.

I have never heard of someone using HCG during PCT and in all honesty it just sounds like a waste of money and possibly putting yourself at risk for a prolonged restart period with some lean muscle tissue loss. I think many people forget suppression can occur within other aspects of the axis besides the gonads. I guess those are just the ones people can witness physically and forget about the the other parts of the endocrine system that were affected.

Thanks for considering that little thought. I can't recall what study pointed me to HCG usage on cycle, but I believe it was one in conjunction with TRT patients doing low doses throughout their prescription to help create a more harmonic hormone environment and help alleviate spikes in serum levels. I'll try to find it.

 

[CFC]

I have no problem optionally advising people to use HCG during cycle at doses between 150iu-250iu E3D or so (erring towards the lower end).

Personally I'd reserve the use for more suppressive cycles (heavier amounts, more compounds). A cycle of just 250-500mg Test or 20-40mg DBol, for example, I wouldn't recommend HCG unless they were really paranoid about recovery.

Where exactly would I draw the line with a recommendation? (and apologies in advance to those who feel uncomfortable with equivocation):

Well that's a problem that I can't honestly answer, and neither can anyone else, no matter how much they claim to know on the subject. We don't have the studies to either prove or disprove the strategies advocated by most bodybuilders. And we probably never will do. It's all anecdote and hearsay with the odd case study thrown in here and there which many board gurus make way too much of. We can make an educated guess based on the science we do know and consistent anecdote, nothing more. That's why this argument has raged for well over the 15 yrs I've been using PEDs, and you still have advocates on both sides.

I don't personally believe HCG is suppressive when used at relatively physiological (so to speak) levels. At higher levels, even with a SERM, I would be concerned about some degree of desensitisation. However, I am also not convinced it will necessarily improve recovery outcomes. On the one hand, large testes from HCG may not necessarily translate into raised endogenous testosterone [1], and on the other hand some compounds (e.g. Deca) are so suppressive and for such periods of time that it's questionable whether PCT of *any* kind is really worth it [2]. Mind you, this is not an argument to do nothing.

To be honest, I'm also an advocate of attempting to control aromatase and keep oestrogen within a physiological range with an AI, even on fairly simple cycles, with an eye on a potentially easier recovery - probably moreso than I am with advocating HCG. Again, this is debatable and only reflects my personal anecdotal views, and of course even using an AI and using non-aromastisable AAS aromatase activity can still go AWOL and damage the testes [3]. However, while I personally prefer this approach, I don't have an issue with people advocating a less interventionist approach (as in, do nothing unless side-effects become an issue) since both have their supporters and neither has the full weight of science.

The reality is all bodies react differently; probably as much as 50% of guys (from my own anecdotal experience) don't really need any PCT at all. Of the rest, 25% probably do benefit from standard PCT (with or without HCG during cycle), and the remaining 25% will struggle to recover no matter what they do.

One compound that, to present, I have had a 100% success rate with (a princely 7 out of 7 cases so far) in terms of a reasonable hormone recovery (sperm quality unknown) is triptorelin acetate. From a single injection with no other PCT whatsoever, from guys who've been on for years without a real break. Would I advocate this for everyone though? Would it still work if metabolites from e.g. Deca are present 6 months later? Hmm…

[1] http://www.excelmale.com/showthread...on-Metabolic-Parameters-and-Testicular-Volume
[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21884791
[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21769864

 

[Serotonin101]

Why not supplement with sublingual dhea/preg? Should allow the body to have these other parent hormones without necessarily adding more suppressing Drugs.

 

[CFC]

BTW welcome to the SD section GrymReefer, keep up the posts

 

[GrymReefer]

Thanks for the feedback and your personal experiences. I have always leaned more towards the cautious side of controlling levels. I had an incident where I got my blood work halfway through the cycle and realized my AI was most likely underdosed/bunk due to my first cycle and lack of legitimate sources. My e2 was almost 300 with the test reading my high end part of the range should be <180pmol/ml which immediately put me into a panic, however my only real side effect was just an elevated blood pressure and little bit of water retention which was almost negligible considering the nature of testosterone. I'm still skeptical on the "no sides, no AI" concept because even if it isn't manifesting itself in a physical format there is really no telling what it could possibly aggravate within the feeble balance that is your HPTA on cycle.
I'd rather compromise a small percentage of my net gains for a balanced hormone profile and a general well being in my mind than to maximize and harness the anabolic environment, but also take on unwanted side effects.