Pure psilocybin vs. shrooms

[Blowmonkey]

Completely true, I assumed this happened recently. Forgot about the middle ages..

 

[Oceanbear]

^^^

4-HO-DIPT wasn't even heard of "a long time ago". And FYI mushrooms weren't abundant, say back in the 70's and 80's, because teks back then weren't as easy as the one's we have today. Chemical precursors were easier to get back then too. In the 60's Sandoz was manafucturing psilocybin in pill form. What he's saying isn't that unbelievable.

Took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks Glog.
Yes, people had not yet figured out that mushrooms were fairly much growing everywhere. At that time, late 60's, there was so much LSD available and so cheap it just didn't occur to people to look for anything different. Hell, originally no one would buy DOM because they hadn't heard of it.... it had to be marketed as '8-way acid' in that one pill could be split into 8 doses. The alphabet soup of chemicals available today just weren't around yet.

 

[Piper methysticum]

I would say that it differs greatly, as I find that each mushroom species also differs. Well, maybe greatly isn't the best choice of word because it wouldn't be anything of a surprise if you are used to mushroom tripping, but for me, it would lack something.

Mushrooms have plenty of different Tryptamines in them, two of which are most responsible for their psychoactive effects (Psilocybin and Psilocin), two of which in some species of mushrooms have a background effect (Norbaeocystin and Baeocystin), and many others that may cause small variances in effect as well. These minor differences are normally not noticeable to the everyday tripper, but to someone that really gets into it, they are. I guess it is much like wine tasting. One person can taste 10 different merlot wines and not taste any difference, and another person can do the same and practically write poems describing the taste of each.

What I am getting at is that Psilocybin is one chemical present in mushrooms. In fact, if you are used to eating dried mushrooms, you may not notice any difference, and if you do, it may quite possibly be psychological. The process of drying mushrooms destroys the Psilocin and probably does the same to some of the other chemicals.

However, just because something is psychological doesn't mean it isn't real either. There is a huge difference for me when I go out and spend the day picking mushrooms than when I just acquire them from friends or dealers. I imagine people that grow mushrooms would notice a difference as well. There would even be a bigger difference when considering taking the pure chemical even if you had a certain amount of mushrooms you picked and a capsule containing every chemical and amount of that chemical in it that the mushrooms you picked do. The more work you put into it, the more you will enjoy it, especially if you enjoyed putting the work into it.

 

[bluedolphin]

^^
Well put Piper, you covered just about everything I was gonna say

 

[Cat Again]

Piper, does that mean if someone were to eat say dried thai cubensis (or any strain, this is only hypothetical) the trip would be different than if he had eaten wet thai cubensis?

 

[Solipsis]

bump to prevent deletion

 

[DwayneHoover]

Odd thread...

Drying destroys psilocin? Never saw that info anyplace... references? Besides, shrooms' most active component is psilocybin which is a PRO-drug of psilocin... the body chemistry converts the psilocybin into psilocin. So even if true "drying destroys psilocin" should not make any difference.

And Jamshyd, thinking you are a Gigeresque Alien is a VERY VERY bizarre and unusual reaction to 2C-I... it is almost always FAR more neutral than that with extremely low low low levels of "mindfuck." So far out of the norm I would question if you really had 2C-I. Most reactions to 2C-I are rather consistent if you look across many trip reports.

This idea that all psychedelics can and will cause immensely wildly varying reactions and effects on subsequent trips, like all they do is simply put the mind into a crazy random insane mental blender, frankly is typical of government antidrug propaganda, intended to frighten people away.

It's not true in my experience and in the experience of the vast majority of people who trip... the same substance will generally produce similar TYPES of experience profiles, they can vary somewhat and of course will differ in specific content, but not to the absurd degree to which Jamshyd is proclaiming. Nothing against him, but I feel he is over-exaggerating the typical variability, perhaps to make a point.

 

[Solipsis]

You do realize this is digged up from the grave?

No problem reviving the subject but responding to ancient posts may only jog some very ancient memories for some users.

I think it's a very valid question but that it's hard to answer. It's very complex. First you have to account for the different proportions of alkaloids in mushrooms and the % in them. Say you do this by homogeneizing a large amount of dried mushrooms. Then you could try some experiments if you had access to pure psilocybin or psilocin.

I hope the psilocin in my freezer has not degraded!

Anyway looking at pure 4-HO's in general I think that 4-HO-DMT itself feels very light on the body and relatively not that dreamy. 4-AcO-DMT is more dreamy so maybe 4-PO-DMT and is as well. Not take into account the even stranger tryptamine alkaloids in mushrooms and it gets even more heavy and complex.

I think a compound like 4-HO-MET can tell us much about the difference between a pure relatively simple 4-HO tryptamine and what is contained in mushrooms.

 

[Ismene]

There's also the question of what effect different % of alkaloids actually have in the brain. Just because you can find a percentage of an alkaloid with a spectrometer doesn't mean your brain will detect it under the onslaught of a dose of psilocybin.


same substance will generally produce similar TYPES of experience profiles

I think the drug brings 50% to the experience and the personality of the user brings the other 50%. I don't know what you mean by a "type of experience profile". I suppose psychedelics will make colours brighter for almost everyone.

 

[Solipsis]

A profile would be a subset of effects that can exist in different balances and variations. I think the idea of a profile is nice (check the community project that is still not really pushing forward) because it can try and average out the character of a compound by trying to average out and normalize the external effects.
It might sounds like something impossible, but wouldn't you agree that different drugs really have different tendencies like certain tryptamines are very likely to make you physically mellow while something like a DOX tends to be stimulating. And how.

 

[red22]

Mushrooms have plenty of different Tryptamines in them, two of which are most responsible for their psychoactive effects (Psilocybin and Psilocin), two of which in some species of mushrooms have a background effect (Norbaeocystin and Baeocystin), and many others that may cause small variances in effect as well.

Then why the hell aren't you listing them!? Why isn't anyone in this thread providing details? also, just because something was determined to be active in isolation, that doesn't mean that it would still be felt when a more efficient chemical (psilocybin) was stimulating the receptors. Psilocybin and psilocin are ultimately the same thing, so that's one example of an insignificant distinction in this context.


As we took leave of María Sabina and her clan at the crack of dawn, the curandera said that the pills had the same power as the mushrooms, that there was no difference. This was a confirmation from the most competent authority, that the synthetic psilocybin is identical with the natural product.

LSD: My problem Child. Albert Hofmann. 1979. Read full account here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20234319


Stability info.

The methanolic extracts could be stored in a freezer at -5C for over 1 year with little change, although storage at room temperature led to complete loss of psilocin and some loss of psilocybin within a few months.

Beug, M. W. & Bigwood, J. 1981. Quantitative Analysis of Psilocybin and Psilocin in Psilicybe Baeocystis (Singer and Smith) by High-Performance Liquid Chromatography and by Thin-Layer Chromatography. Journal of Chromatography, Vol. 207, No. 3, pp. 379-385 DOWNLOAD Cf. 'Results'


Re: Psilocybin/psilocin issue: On top of the fact that psilocin and psilocybin ultimately do the same thing in the body, psilocin is a precursor to psilocybin. It is an incomplete byproduct and this reflects its poor stability.

Agurrel, S. and J.L.G. Nilsson. 1968. Biosynthesis of Psilocybin: Part II. Incorporation of Labelled Tryptamine Derivatives. Acta Chemica Scandinavica 22(4): 1210–1218. DOWNLOAD See page 1217.

 

[Xorkoth]

I've had the good fortune to experience both pure psilocin (4-HO-DMT) and mushrooms on multiple occasions. I do not consider them the same substance. 4-HO-DMT is much closer to mushrooms for me than 4-AcO-DMT is, but it's also distinctly different. It hits very quickly, and very hard. It's less physical and more directly mental. Also quicker in total duration and in its unfolding. 4-HO-DMT seemed to always push me towards that ego death thought loop territory, whereas mushrooms take a different approach for me.

Just my experience. I've taken mushrooms quite a few times, and 4-HO-DMT 3 times.

 

[red22]

And your description does sound like it's the same thing, just that the rate of absorption was different. Obviously a curandera with heavy tripping under her belt would not have cared about or noticed such a difference. Also, you did psilocin; Maria did psilocybin.

 

[Solipsis]

I always argue that the kinetics (the rate of absorption being a factor) alone could matter a lot, which would also be an explanation for why other esters of psilocin like 4-AcO-DMT may feel different subjectively from the plain indolol. For me pure psilocin came up very fast and felt pure / lucid whereas mushrooms rather invariably make me feel trancey / dreamy / mindfucked. In that regard psilocin felt a lot more like N,N-DMT vaped to me, and I suppose it is a result of the fast kinetics and the fact that it is a pure substance and not a mix with complex pharmacological interactions that can result in synergy and the trip just feeling different.
4-AcO-DMT feels pure - like pure cannabinoids feel, sort of two-dimensional compared to the richness of natural cannabis products - but I tend to go much deeper into trances than I seem to be aware of. Strange, I don't quite like that. For me the trip is rather dilated, stretched out and a lot easier and gentler on the comeup and comedown... but for others it is an even shorter trip than psilocin. Could that be a result of different esterase population / polymorphism / activity?

I'm still very interested in how 4-PropO-DMT - which is the propionyl ester - feels, and I just may be able to find that out. Or at least to compare other tryptamine indolols with their simple 4-sub esters.
N-acetylating or N-propionylating tryptamines could also be interesting, it should turn it into a pro-drug but again I wonder if the changed kinetics alone could make them distinct enough to have value. On the other hand, until research proves something more compounds will just add to the confusion and subjective (dis)agreement.

I don't like mushrooms and prefer not to take them anymore, but pure psilocin still is interesting to me... I hope it has not degraded.

 

[Trying2Iso]

mush cookies I've seen before but never tried them
heard they were pretty legit tho, from people who did try them