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  • BDD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | negrogesic

Psychedelics and stimulants in Bluelight.

Enlight Spurrett

Bluelighter
Joined
Jun 29, 2015
Messages
187
Can stimulants be included in the psychedelic drugs section due to their close chemical relation? Would dopaminergic and norepinephrine raising substances be classed as a psychedelic seeing as various "traditional" psychedelics have the same neurological effects? It would take it out of the "Other drugs" category and make it clearer and tidy it up a bit?
 
No, because the doses you need to get any sort of psychedelic effect will also inevitably cause extremely unpleasant and often dangerous side effects. This would be like considering heroin as a treatment for diarrhea; it's *technically* correct, but it's also completely unfeasible and ridiculously stupid.
 
You don't need to be personal about it by calling me stupid. I wasn't talking about the doses anyway as all doses differ depending on the drug.
 
I wasn't calling you stupid, I'm sorry if that's what you understood. What I was trying to say was that trying to actually use something like amphetamine as a hallucinogen would be a stupid (and dangerous) idea.

But I agree that my post wasn't very helpful. I was thinking only about classical/straight stims (amp, meth, etc), but it's true that often stims and psychedelics do overlap (and a large number of them are based on the same molecular skeletons - PEA and tryptamine are the two that come to mind, but there are probably others). To hallucinate off amphetamine you'd have to take ridiculous doses, and the other effects you'd be feeling by that point would turn it into a definite bad trip, but when you look at things like MDMA and AMT, the line is definitely blurred. The "problem", I guess, is that these drugs are pretty crude in their action, so can never be all that selective. Most (all?) stimulants work by raising dopamine, noradrenaline and usually serotonin in various proportions, and some also directly activate postsynaptic receptors; psychedelics generally activate these receptors directly to various degrees, while many also act as releasing agents. Same neurotransmitters, same receptors, but activated in different proportions according to the drug. It gets messier still when you consider that activating a given receptor hardly ever only has one effect. For example D2 agonism plays a major role in producing psychedelic-type effects (which is why it was the original target of first-gen antipsychotics), but is also heavily involved in the activity of stimulants (and something like haldol will almost entirely block the effects of Ritalin or amphetamine). Then there's also the fact that everybody's brain is different, and that even hitting the same receptor in exactly the same way is never going to have quite the same effect from one person to the next...

IMHO, instead of trying to consider all the possible effects of a given drug, it's more useful to just categorise it according to the effect that's the most apparent to the majority of its users. Amphetamine primarily increases energy levels in its users, even if in some circumstances it can also cause hallucinations and decreased sociability ("anti-epathogenic" I suppose?); it's a stimulant. LSD's immediately obvious effect for most people who take it is to produce hallucinations, although many find it stimulating to a lesser degree and some people report dissociative effects (though that's probably a bad example, since hallucinations are also a detachment from reality :-/ ); it's best to just consider it a hallucinogen.
 
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Wow thank you. That was really helpful. I feel like I should have know most of that but hadn't considered a few things. I never got any qualifications from school so I learn as best I can via the internet. I learnt quite a lot about chemistry and you just explained that perfectly. Sorry if it sounds like I'm gushing haha! May I add you as a friend? We may be able to share some interesting facts and ideas? :)
 
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