Desperate Precipitated Withdrawal for 2 days straight during detox?

[Boober]

Hi, new here. So last time I went to a detox for about 1 year of H/ fent mix (5 years total of painkillers starting with kratom- tram-hydro-oxy-subutex-h/fent powder due to terrible chronic pain), I had tapered super low to where a tiny bump would be my dose and my urine tests came out clean multiple times. Despite this, When they gave me suboxone (4mg) the following day about 18 hours after the last dose, I went into the worst withdrawal I have ever experienced within 30 min. They kept giving me suboxone every 6-8 hours (4mg 3 times on the 1st day and 2nd day) and I kept feeling absolutely horrible for 2 straight days. I didn't think it was possible to suffer for so long and thought it was supposed to make me feel better/ have everything out of my system by then.

On the 3rd day I was switched to subutex. I don't remember if it was the subutex or I just naturally started feeling better, but I was thinking WTF the entire time, desperate to get out of there with no way to. Shit was terrifying.

Does anyone know if this is naltrexone hypersensitivity or something? I heard of only 1 other person who couldn't take suboxone no matter how long he waited
(3 days apparently) after having fent in his system. Please advise.
I'm trying to detox again after having unbearable pain and being forced to take the shit that put me in that situation in the first place... I'm pretty scared, honestly. Wondering if cold turkey after 2 months of use will be easier. I don't know what to do and will do anything to not go through that hell again

 

[Mafioso]

I'm guessing it's the naltrexone if switching to Subutex resolved the issue. Not exactly sure why, assuming it'd have something to do with opioid tolerance/physical dependence. I've heard quite a few people have similar issue when coming off opioids. It might not cause problems 1-2 months later, possibly even 1-2 weeks after the last dose- but if you make it that far might as well keep going imo, as you'd be past the acute withdrawal.

If it's only been 2 months and your use was fairly moderate, maybe try doing a quick taper with the opioid med you are currently using. Around 1-2 weeks, with a few small emergency doses left for when it gets too intense. If that isn't feasible due to impulse control, maybe try cold turkey or Subutex.

 

[Boober]

My main issue is my awful back pain. It's really difficult to endure. That's why I'm in this crappy situation, but I'm trying hard to endure it and exercise while tapering. I tried cold turkey many times and cannot pass day 1 due to the pain. I think I just really need physical therapy before it's even an option to be clean, because it hurts way too much. I have gabapentin, but even a 600mg dose doesn't make it stop enough for me to endure it. I guess I need to increase it and see how I feel. I do want to use subutex to get off, but the pain of being clean for 24 hours is too much. Also I'm pretty damn scared of bupe after what happened at the detox. I have about 9mg of subutex so I can test it out if I can get passed 24 hours and if I go into Precipitated WD, I'm sure I can just take enough of my pain meds to stop it. My main plan is too taper low enough to where kratom starts working well for me and use that to get off the junk. I'm really trying to put my faith in this taper and hope it goes well. I want out of this so bad. I want my life back

 

[Squeaky]

Boober- It sounds like you’re not running out of fent, just trying to get off it. Is tapering not a choice? I tried to taper many times but always fail. I’m hoping to give my next bottle of pills to someone to keep me away from them for a while.
Anybody you can trust to help you?

 

[Boober]

I'm trying to taper. It works, I just hit a wall and my natural feel good mechanisms that built up through exercise n stuff are weakening. I'm not really an 'addict' in the sense that I'm only using it as medicine and not for getting high. I still have never felt a real heroin high. The best I've ever felt on opioids was when I was taking single 10mg hydrocodone at a time back in high school. Damn, do I wish my tolerance was that low again

 

[Squeaky]

I'm trying to taper. It works, I just hit a wall and my natural feel good mechanisms that built up through exercise n stuff are weakening. I'm not really an 'addict' in the sense that I'm only using it as medicine and not for getting high. I still have never felt a real heroin high. The best I've ever felt on opioids was when I was taking single 10mg hydrocodone at a time back in high school. Damn, do I wish my tolerance was that low again

Yeah, the only time I ever got “high” was before my first back surgery on norco one time, and once after the second surgery when they gave me extended release oxy 30’s. I took one of those before bedtime and I woke up floating on air. That was about 10,000 pills ago and I’ve never been high sense then.
My advice is to stick with a taper. Don’t transition to something like Loperamide until you just can’t do the taper anymore. And stock up on lope, they don’t sell large quantities at the store anymore. I get mine online.

 

[Boober]

Yeah. I want to taper right the fuck off this shit. The main issue is the pain, but with physical therapy and getting active again, I hope that makes it easier. I cannot begin to describe how much I fucking haaaate this situation... I hate the fact that this universe put me into the position in life to have to deal with this. Same for all other chronic pain sufferers who didn't do anything to deserve their suffering.

Also I'm still looking for an answer to the main question. Still can't find anyone who understands anything about what the heck happened and why

 

[Squeaky]

Maybe your problem was just a strange allergic reaction. Or maybe the facility you were at used some shitty generic suboxone and it was tainted with something. What you described sounds like it couldn’t possibly be withdrawal since you were getting the meds when it happened. Sounds like a reaction to whatever they gave you and the reaction stopped when they changed meds. Could have caused swelling in your brain or spine causing withdrawal-like pains. Too much coincidence that it started 30 minutes after treatment began and went away when they changed meds. Like someone who’s allergic to shellfish.
Maybe there was peanut dust in your suboxone. I’m actually not joking- Prince supposedly died from tainted Vicodin that he got from a legit pharmacy.

 

[Boober]

Allergic reactions have completely different symptoms and I don't have any known allergies. I know what withdrawal feels like and It was withdrawal + my chronic pain. Nothing else. The reason I'm so iffy about the whether it was subutex that helped me or if it was just the super withdrawal getting me clean in a more violently fast way (what naloxone does apparently) and being mostly done that 3rd day. Someone told me that if I'm in precipitated WD due to suboxone and I keep taking suboxone, it can make it last even longer. Who the hell knows... No one seems to know anything about what I went through. Also subutex even put me into precip WD once, but it was only for like 10 min or so and I felt better. This was during the start of my h/ fent dosing so there wasn't a lot in my system and I haven't been taking it for long. Don't remember how long I waited, but it was way before 24 hours

Only thing I've read about that MAY POSSIBLY suggest why this happened is the term 'naloxone hypersensitivity' or whatever. Of course the webpage I found that term on had ZERO information about it... I scoured the internet trying to find any info I could about it, and fucking of course, got absolutely nothing. I always seem to have goddamn problems that no one can help me with/ there's no info about and it frustrates the hell out of me. I have no words to describe how frustrating it is

 

[Squeaky]

I have done a lot of “self-experimentation” because of the lack of good information available out there, particularly from my doctors. They’re quick to write a prescription or schedule a surgery but I’m much more interested in figuring out WHY it happened so that it won’t happen again, and so that I can fix it with as little intervention as possible. I also do a lot of reading in forums like this one so that I might notice something on me that I heard from someone like you and stop someone else from screwing me with more pharmaceuticals or surgeries that are only going to make my future more difficult.
Having said all that...... I doubt I would ever go for suboxone. I have used Loperamide and Kratom for wds, separately and together on different occasions. As much as either one does help me tremendously with the excessive withdrawal symptoms in the first few days and the longer term wds from about day 4 on, there is about 4 days of strange new symptoms that feel like a mash up of withdrawal from oxycodone and side effects from overdose on the lope/Kratom. I would take it for sure over straight cold turkey, but it does still suck ASS and I guarantee that if I did ask my Dr about it he would have zero information for me. And as much as I have scoured the internet for answers like you have, it seems that my own posts here on BlueLight are the only real information available on the subject.

 

[Boober]

I feel you. It's tough being someone who has symptoms so rare that info on it can't even be found on the internet. When did those WD/ OD side-effects begin for you on the WD timeline and what were you withdrawing from?

Also hows it going with your oxy taper? Hope you're making progress. I relapsed hard... Have been so damn depressed about having to go through this dependence a 2nd time after all the horrible shit I've been through and just missing the life I used to have so much it hurts. So yeah... I'm taking about a G a day or more again. I still try to hold off my doses when I have the willpower, but just fuck, man. Fuck

 

[Squeaky]

Wds from oxy start a few hours after my last pill. Kratom is more like 8 hours. I did cold turkey off oxy and it was about a week before I knew what day it was. Another 3 weeks before I felt human again.

 

[Boober]

I mean when did you feel the 4 days of weird side effects that you mentioned like kratom od and all that

 

[Squeaky]

From around the last 24 hours preceding my last oxy(and overlapping with Kratom) to about day 3 or 4 after my last oxy (with only Kratom). Both affect the same part of your brain, but in different ways. So until all of the oxy is gone (which takes about 4 days) I feel very uncomfortably strange in my mind and body. Its not good but it is worlds better than straight up cold turkey oxy withdrawls.

 

[Squeaky]

My best guess would be that your tolerance was just too big and you had to wait while it decreased enough so buprenorphine could give you enough opioid stimulation. Severity and longitude of the withdrawal suggest that it could not be naloxone because naloxone would not be active that long. Even if you had some strange biology which would allow naloxone to be active orally, it would not account for the withdrawal 4 hours after dosing.

People who are on methadone need to reduce their dose to 30-40mg before switching over to buprenorphine if they want to avoid withdrawal and the reason is that buprenorphine can give you opioid effects up to 30-40mg of methadone. Lots of IV heroin users report heavy withdrawal, which is not precipitated with buprenorphine, but is because buprenorphine is not powerful enough compared to their tolerance. Then they have to either wait it out until their tolerance goes down or they are put on higher dose of methadone. People with very high tolerance, like the one fentanyl would give, are withdrawaling even when given methadone, if doses are not higher than recommended for the first few days (40-50mg max).

My best guess is that buprenorphine was helping you, but as you had big tolerance it could not help you enough. Day 3 is usually when things become better, especially with short acting opioids like fent, and it becomes better when your tolerance goes down. If buprenorphine, or naloxone were the real problem than you would have more intense withdrawal than usually. Was that the case? Was withdrawal much worse than "regular withdrawal" should be or was it "like it would be if you had not taken any buprenorphine/naloxone"? Answer to this question will give you a clue was it regular fentanyl withdrawal and tolerance resetting, or was there truly something else involved.

Anyway I hope that you will be able to get out this state and be able to handle your pain without heroin/fentanyl. I truly wish you all the best!

I like your “The question is not why the addiction but why the pain”
I understand that I am dependent on opiates. Years of use means it would take me months to be free from them. And clearly I’m addicted. But when I think about my pills I’m not thinking that I will get high. I’m thinking about how nice it is to not hurt.
My New Year’s resolution is to get off the pills for a while. The only way to make that happen is to decide that living in pain is better than being addicted. So far every month I get close to prescription-day and all I can think about is pain relief.

 

[Boober]

My best guess would be that your tolerance was just too big and you had to wait while it decreased enough so buprenorphine could give you enough opioid stimulation. Severity and longitude of the withdrawal suggest that it could not be naloxone because naloxone would not be active that long. Even if you had some strange biology which would allow naloxone to be active orally, it would not account for the withdrawal 4 hours after dosing.

People who are on methadone need to reduce their dose to 30-40mg before switching over to buprenorphine if they want to avoid withdrawal and the reason is that buprenorphine can give you opioid effects up to 30-40mg of methadone. Lots of IV heroin users report heavy withdrawal, which is not precipitated with buprenorphine, but is because buprenorphine is not powerful enough compared to their tolerance. Then they have to either wait it out until their tolerance goes down or they are put on higher dose of methadone. People with very high tolerance, like the one fentanyl would give, are withdrawaling even when given methadone, if doses are not higher than recommended for the first few days (40-50mg max).

My best guess is that buprenorphine was helping you, but as you had big tolerance it could not help you enough. Day 3 is usually when things become better, especially with short acting opioids like fent, and it becomes better when your tolerance goes down. If buprenorphine, or naloxone were the real problem than you would have more intense withdrawal than usually. Was that the case? Was withdrawal much worse than "regular withdrawal" should be or was it "like it would be if you had not taken any buprenorphine/naloxone"? Answer to this question will give you a clue was it regular fentanyl withdrawal and tolerance resetting, or was there truly something else involved.

Anyway I hope that you will be able to get out this state and be able to handle your pain without heroin/fentanyl. I truly wish you all the best!

My tolerance was relatively very low at the time I went into the detox, though. Low enough to where nothing showed up on my urine test. Like I went from around a G a day to a tiny bump as my dose for multiple hours of pain relief. Naloxone hypersensitivity is the only thing I've heard of that makes naloxone affect you orally, but I have found like zero information on that subject.

Someone told me that if you're put into precipitated WD, and are continually given the drug that put you there, it can extend the PWD. I have no clue how true this is and only know what has happened to me. It pisses me off how much misinformation there is out there and how there are people who will say something as if it's 100% true, but don't actually KNOW if it is. Everyone is always trying to feed me info that I know isn't true simply based off of my own experiences and it's exhausting dealing with it. Who can I believe anymore when barely any living human understands what it means to objectively know a fact?

I've only had negative experience with naloxone the 2-3 times I've had it and each one was horrible. Buprenorphine itself only gave me one precip WD experience, but it only lasted like 20 min or so

Yes, the WD was WAY more intense than a normal WD and lasted 2 straight days without anything getting better. Worst thing in the world...

 

[Boober]

I'm not upset with you. I appreciate the gesture of good will. It is weird and I hate how there are no answers to be found for me about all the weird stuff that's wrong with me.

Methadone scares me. Not a good drug to be on if an emergency occurs and painkillers are needed. All the other things I hear about it turn me off of it as well, such as the withdrawals and how strict the clinics are, etc. If I have enough stuff to test this out, I'd try. It may not be necessary if I can taper successfully again. Thank you for the info

 

[Squeaky]

That quote was not my original thought but it resonated with me, as did entire book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters with Addiction" by MD Gabor Maté. Gabor Maté really imprinted that way of looking at the addictive behaviors. If you do not have time to read his book(s) than this video should get his core message across. I hope that you will be able to find a way to live your life the way you want to live it. Something will turn up in the pharmaceutical world, but I am strong believer in power of human being to heal itself. I wish that some kind of relief comes your way soon.

Wow. I finally watched the video you posted. It totally describes my entire existence.
The Kratom takes away my worst acute psychological pain, but does nothing for the pain of day to day life. The oxycodone takes it all away. So does alcohol. I guess that’s why I desperately try to get the pills to work every month until I am burning through 30 days prescription in about a week. I haven’t got any outlet for my stress so I carry a bottle full of stress relief wherever I go. I tell everyone that it’s only for my back pain. But it’s for a LOT more.
Damn. Thank you for that. I gotta make some changes.