Phenibut for Benzo withdrawal ?

[Allein]

I'm really not getting a very clear picture elsewhere on this one an I'm sure someone with more learned of even experienced may be able to help.

Reading up on Phenibut, although it mainly bind it primarily binds to the GABA-b receptors at higher doses it also binds to the GABA-a receptors, although there seems to be some dispute in this area.

My motivation for asking is I am currently struggling to taper off of Diazepam, I'm getting there but its a long haul and falling off that long wagon ride would be easy to do.

Does anyone have and experience or advice on whether you can switch to Phenibut and if so what kind of ratio you would need against Diazepam.

I'm primarily concerned about avoiding the very worst of the WD some discomfort and anxiety are not the issue, this is about avoiding seizure and anything else that would make me non-functional or be a danger to my wellbeing. I have suffered from a GAD for many years and I'm currently taking 150mgs of Venlafaxine (Effexor) daily.

Any help or advice greatly appreciated.

 

[Steps]

To be honest, I doubt there's many people on this board who have tried phenibut for benzo withdrawal
It would be purely experimental if you carry this out

However, if you do try it out, treat it as a science experiment and keep logs of doses and effects etc
.. you could contribute some information of high value... since there aren't many scientific studies on phenibut

 

[Allein]

Some of thee stuff I've manage to find has shown benzos being utilsed to get people off Phenibut which would suggest ther GABA-a binding is there,.

I seriously considering giving it a go, I came off 20 units of alcohol a day CT with no ill effects, the only fly in the ointment is my current use of Effexor which is supposed to lower your seizure threshold a bit.

I'd post over in ADD but them lot are a bit scary

 

[bluedolphin]

I actually tried using Phenibut to ease benzo withdrawls.

My main concern was also lowering my seizure risk, and also being able to sleep.

However, by the time I started using Phenibut, I had already titrated my benzo use down to a level equivilant to 10mg diazepam / day. I continued to taper down the benzos for about another week while I started to take a couple grams of Phenibut each day.

In the end it was a successful taper, and I actually slept relatively well through the process and didn't have any bad withdrawls. However, afterwards I did feel slightly addicted to Phenibut, so I then tapered myself off that rather than quitting it altogether at once.

I would suggest tapering your benzos as much as possible before adding Phenibut to the mix, as it won't fully substitute at all. But it will help. Alcohol helps too. And you don't want to be on Phenibut for an extended amount of time because it's withdrawl symptoms are similar to benzo WDs in many ways and it builds a pretty fast tolerance.

Overall I'd say you'd be better off going to a doctor, explaining your situation, and then getting RX'd some Dilantin or similar medication, or letting him taper you down from benzos. But for people who like to take these things into their own hands, Phenibut can be useful if used carefully.

 

[Allein]

Thanks for that, it's useful to hear someones else's experience.

Unfortunately, or not depending on how you look at it alcohol is not an option, I gave it up in July last year as I was drinking heavily every day and had been doing so for sometime, in many ways I think I think I (I know) I've replaced the alcohol with benzos, having had allot of therapy sessions over the last couple of years I can see that I've used drugs daily for over 25 years. I now have no other habits other than benzos which I think is psychologically making it harder for me to sustain abstinence from them. I've tapered to nothing and been clean of them a couple of time now but have ended up back in the same place again.

I know I should really seek medical assistance and I had this for my alcohol withdrawal, in-fact I withdrew fro Diaz and alcohol at the same time, unfortunately personal circumstances do not allow me seek medical assistance this time around, it just isn't an option open to me.

I'm quite a way from 10mgs unfortunately, when you say you, titrated my benzo use down to a level equivalent to 10mg diazepam what do you mean by that, forgive my ignorance.

did you take the Phenibut at night, I understand it can make you sleepy and what kind of effect, if any did you get from 2g, it seems from the information I have found that the GABA-a effect only kicks in at higher dosing.

 

[bluedolphin]

What I mean by the equivilant of 10mg Diazepam, was that I was eating like 4mg Etizolam a day before I realized I better curb my usage ASAP before I had a real problem. I tapered down over a couple weeks down to 1mg/day before introducing Phenibut. Then continued to taper down to 0.5mg / day while using Phenibut.

Now I am out of Etizolam and still taking Phenibut in lesser and lesser doses. I don't like to be addicted to anything but I was honestly reckless with the Etizolam (eating up to 10mg in a day for a few days). And I have a history of serious benzo addiction (I used to have an addiction of about 8-10mg Diazepam a day.. and once before that up to 20mg Alprazolam a day) and have withdrawn from those leading to pretty dire circumstances in my life. Including hospitalization and seizures.

So I know benzo withdrawl is no joke and Etizolam may not be technically a benzo but its damn close enough.

I take the Phenibut mostly in the evening. I only found that it helped me sleep the first couple days. Now I feel it just eases withdrawls, and now I am honestly more addicted to Phenibut than I am to Etizolam/benzos, so I am tapering down on the Phenibut to avoid further withdrawl symptoms.

You might also want to look into Kava, if you can find the pure root at a local health food store or something like that. Kava tea is not as strong a benzo but it certainly helps. The problem with Kava is that it doesn't last that long, and you need quite a strong tea to approximate the amount of GABA agonism that benzos will induce.

How far away from 10mg / diazepam a day are you? If you are much above 20mg / day I would honestly be concerned about disgusting withdrawls and possibly seizures if you have to quit cold turkey.

I once had to go cold turkey from 40-50mg diazepam / day and ended up in a detox unit due to psychosis and high risk of seizure. After I was released from detox a couple weeks later I actually had a Grand Mal seizure. Then I was put on Dilantin by a psychiatrist for another several weeks until I was more or less back to baseline.

Good luck. If I were you I would find a way around your personal circumstances and seek medical help anyway... especially if you are at 20-30mg or more of diazepam a day and need to quit cold turkey. Any doctor will realize this is a potentially dangerous situation and prescribe you some anti epileptic drugs which might still allow you some withdrawl symptoms, but at least you won't have a seizure and end up in the hospital.

By the way, I plan on getting some Kava to reduce my dependency on Phenibut. It sucks trading one thing for another like this, but at least I am trading down to lesser evils. I am simply not willing and able to deal with the insomnia, stress, and possible seizures of quitting GABA drugs cold turkey again.

My life circumstances also require me to be discreet about this process. Due to my history of drug abuse I cannot really be caught with pills or too much alcohol because I could lose my job. And if you had past alochol abuse issues I guess alcohol wouldn't be a great idea. But I'm telling you, having some red wine around might really help you through this... if you can keep yourself from abusing the alcohol after you do get through this. That's not to encourage you to do this, but it is the truth.

Phenibut will help but like I said if you have a relatively serious benzo addiction and need to quit cold turkey, it's not going to save you all the way and you will end up addicted to Phenibut and then have to deal with that as well.

 

[Allein]

There's no way I'm going to quit CT, sorry of I wasn't clear on that, in my case it would be far to risky,

I've been tapering for about a month and am down to 70mgs, but its not an easy situation when you have to have a quantity of something around and count out the pills day by day. I'm not winging about it, this is the 3rd time I've done exactly the same thing, its all down to my own foolish stupidity but I'm not going to get caught up in that self loathing cycle, it just makes things worse.

TBH I've been in a secure unit and had professional withdrawal from alcohol, apart from a free script I can't see me getting much out of it I don't know already, I'm not being arrogant (well I hope I'm not) but ultimately this is down to me.

I managed to keep my alcohol and drug issues unknown to my employer at the time as I had suffered a complete breakdown so they supported any doctors and counselling visits without question, but I've just taken a new job and its a long distance from my home, not to mention I want to put all that behind me having got on top of my anxiety and depression issues and my new employer knows nothing about them, so it really would have top be a last resort.

My habit on and off has been going on for a good couple of years but this run including the taper time is probably more than six months, I don't really keep track and my usage varies quite a bit, I want far from being off and then I had some complicated personal issues a couple of months back and it put me back to square one.

A substance that might suppress the likelihood of seizures like Phenytoin ( Dilantin ) would be really useful but I'm pretty sure my GP wouldn't prescribe something like that and I'd be back in the, referral to the addiction centre scenario.

I'll look into Kava though I didnt know it had any GABA-a activity

 

[Pagey]

You're smart not to quit cold turkey. That's what I did and I ended up in the hospital (seizure, etc.). Be careful

 

[bluedolphin]

If I were you and I were on 70mg of diazepam, the first thing I would do is immediately step down to 40mg. You might not feel as relaxed but you most likely won't have a seizure doing that. Then slowly titrate down from there.

70mg a day is a lot. I've been there before, it's going to be a difficult road ahead of you. Good luck!

 

[Allein]

^^^

I took a big jump down from an average of about 200-250 to the start of the taper at 120mgs, I'd be quite prepared to make another big jump down but is that really safe ? its seizures I'm concerned with, bearing in mind I'm on Venlafaxine as well (150mgs XR), like I said I'd CT today fek the WDs but that's just not an option due to the risks

 

[effie]

^ Venlafaxine can lower the seizure threshold atm, making seizures even more of a concern so you're right to be wary - fully appreciate the difficulties of a long, slow taper though. I wouldn't like to say whether 70mg to 40mg of diazepam would carry a risk of seizure or not as I don't know how much 150mg of venlafaxine affects seizure threshold, or what your natural threshold is..

I can't find much specific info on phenibut for benzo WDs (did find the amusingly titled "you can kiss my phenibut" though) but you're right about it's affinity for GABA-b and to a lesser extent GABA-a. This paper suggests it has a similar profile to baclofen, which has been used to treat benzo withdrawal, but that doesn't really help you especially in terms of dosage and that's pretty critical really for kicking in the GABA-a agonism.

Phenibut can produce a withdrawal syndrome similar to that of benzos (here is one case report) so you would have to be very careful as you may just find yourself substituting one dependency for another. I understand your frustration atm and phenibut is unlikely to have the same psychological hold over you as benzos do, but I am not sure it is the right thing to help you here

 

[Allein]

There's no way I'm deviating from my taper now, I've successfully got down to 70mgs and am dropping 10mgs (all based on illicit but the same pills) every 7 days then dropping to 5mgs for a week at the end. That takes me out to the very end of June and there are days when I'm clinging on with my finger nails. But I got into this and I'm fekin well gonna get out of it TBH the anxiety and craving are nothing I haven't been through before with both Benzos, Booze Nicotine, Cannabis and to some extent Coke, but thats little consolation in reality

I have got some Phenibut in as I have been suffering a little rebound anxiety and I'm interested in its claims around improving cognition, but use is strictly every other day and I've started at 750Mgs but the limit is 2gs, I'll flush it at the first sign its causing me a problem or not helping me in the withdrawal.

Its very difficult to objectively judge but I think there is some potentiation of the benzo, I'll tread carefully on this one, like you say there no benefit in switching one substance for another, I may as well go back on the booze.

Having said that the guy in the example was taking 20g a day, if I end up with a habit for Phenibut Effie I'll get my self down to a place of your choosing and you can kick my fekin arse all the way back to the train station with those boots you want so badly, in fact I'll buy the fekin boots and I think you know I don't say things like that and not mean them.

 

[butcher22]

i was forced to quit CT and did have several grand mal seizures but its been about a month and a half now and i am through the worst of it but still dealing with some shitty anxiety and insomnia and phenny helps quite a bit with that as well as giving me energy and an appetite. i didnt take it during my acute withdrawal so i cant speak as to how well it would help during that phase and i didnt taper off so i dont really know how it even feels to drop off from a low dose but if what i read was correct (which it may not be) phenibut can make you more at risk to seizures if you are already susceptible to them so if that is true you might want to wait until you have been off of them for diazepam a bit and just use phenibut for the PAWS. just my two cents though

 

[Invisible Helper]

I have a question that's kind of random for bluedolphin, since you're experienced in diazepam , I'm down to 5 mg every 2 days am I safe to stop taking it completely? Does anyone know the answer ? Thanks

 

[MrRoot]

Metabolites of diazepam have a very long half life so it has been wise of you to start taking that dose every two days.

If you have been on that for two weeks or longer you would have had already the worst of the WDs and most definately won't have seizures for example and could stop using it completely.

Of course if you wish to be totally safe you could take 5mg for every three days for a while and then for every four days and stop after that.