Personality development versus Spiritual development

[Ninae]

I find this idea pretty interesting. It's not so much talked about, or I haven't really seen many focus on both, it's usually one or the other.

Asger Lorentsen wrote a bit about it and said it was two separate forms of development going on alongside one another. Personality development is more about strengthening the self and what you are on a worldly level, the physical, emotional, and intellectual level, or what is not spiritual. Also about strengthening the ego to compete with others in this world.

It's often not balanced. I went to one of his seminars and he was more like a geeky type without so much personality control, but was a good spiritual teacher. So someone can be advanced on one level and lag behind on the other. Although, generally, I think spiritual development really starts when someone has about completed their personality development and feel there's no more challenge there.

I when I started out I was stronger on the spiritual level, then I had to shift focus because it caused so many problems in this world, by not being really grounded, etc. Now I'm kind of bored of that. It just seems like everyone competing and eventually you get to a level where no one can win so there's not much point to it.

Or that's how I see it. But it's still easy to be drawn in by strong personality-types who tend to become leaders or celebrities in some form.

 

[Mysterie]

i think as you move up the levels of health of personality, the strength of the ego is lessened, i see spirituality and personality development as linked.

if one looks at personality or ego formation as a pointer of how our identity takes its form, then it might be easier i guess to self-inquire into what we really are and let go of the attachment to this form of self.

a part of me thinks these days that you can't really progress or move towards attaining something on the spiritual path, because that kind of contradicts the point that we are already everything we are looking for, and its the doing and seeking that gets in the way of relaxing into our being.

 

[psychedelicsoul]

I believe they are two seperate things.. but shouldn't be. I think our spirit doesn't "develop", but it can be changed through extreme will power. I think our minds need to evolve (as we age), in order to become one with our spirit
Our spirit is a seperate entity.
The spirit is uninfluenced and changeable.
The personality is influenced and changable.

I think if you can get your personality to reflect your spirit, or vice versa, you can achieve a state of harmony. I think there's nothing better than having your personality, beliefs, and desires all agree. I think that's what man should strive for if we want inner place.

 

[CfZrx]

I just wanna use buddhist tricks to train my brain

 

[Foreigner]

I don't think they are the same thing. Spirit is a constant, personality (from "persona-") fluctuates. We have different peronas in diferent situations. Some people are so dissociated that there are multiple personas operating independently from one another, unaware of each other. That would be the extreme though. Most of us are assuming we have one consistent personality because we have a linear memory of events, but do we really?

Beneath all of this is still present awareness observing the whole drama unfolding. Just because most people seemingly have one consistent persona doesn't mean they are expressing their true spiritual nature by talking to you. It just means their ego is unfragmented.

The only way I see the two as being linked is through the process of awakening, which is a moment of clarity about non-self, or when ego becomes more aware of the ever present awakenness that is always in operation, regardless of a fluctuating persona.

Personality is useful because it allows us to engage mind and perhaps communicate some aspects of spirituality, but spirituality in of itself is a pure, unbridled experience that is the "real" beyond the mask.

But this is all a discussion based on separateness. If we're talking about the ultimate, or the One, there is no real distinction between spirit and personality.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^ Great post Foreigner. I'm still a little confused about some of this, seems there are aspects of spirit that are immutable and aspects of spirit that are subject to perception. I still use the term spiritual perception and believe perception is the realm of separation. That's my experience at least. Vibrational awareness is a type of spiritual awareness. There are different frequencies and boundaries, but where do you draw the line? For example, there are condensed energy-forms in our bodies that are like spiritual experiences, emotions, thoughts and physical sensations all at once. These I have lots of experience with through breathwork. Many discuss spiritual levels like astral and etheric planes. I try to avoid such distinctions because I can't properly associate the correct name with the correct experience. In the Seth changelings they discuss spiritual levels as if they are different realities of spirit. A fundamental aspect of these levels is that they are superpositions of different aspects, entangled with one another, forming a matrix of unity, but ultimately having qualitative differences that can be disambiguated and the appearance of structure. Are these things the realm of spirit or are they subject to perception even in their oneness? Then there are realities that can't be differentiated. Like foreigner said, this is a discussion based on separateness or perception. In that realm we'll always see seeming contradictions. Like Schrodinger's cat. When things get too weird I remind myself: "I always choose the light" Gotta be something we choose every time.

 

[Ninae]

Could describe what you do for breathing exercises?

 

[-=SS=-]

I think Ouspensky (or Gurdjeff) suggested we have an 'essence' and a 'persona', and that in the majority of people one develops far more than the other. Typically its the persona. If I remember correctly he suggested that the essence usually stops developing somewhere in early childhood and the persona takes over. This makes sense to me.. I think it's pretty difficult to remain heart centred and develop from there, given most parents are damaged/toxic and so too is the environment/culture in which we grow up. We automatically shut down as a safety response, and persona takes over so that we can function without dying.

Just looked it up, was Gurdjieff: http://www.lightwinnipeg.org/Essence%20and%20Personality.pdf

I believe the persona can be broken down further into different developmental domains: Instinctual, Emotional, Intellectual, Philosophical. The development of most people is dominated by the instinctual, and few develop the philosophical component.

Quoting from that link:

With most people, essence continues to receive impressions only until it is five or six years old. As long as it receives impressions it grows, but afterwards all impressions are taken by personality and essence stops growing. Sometimes if education is not too unfavourable, the essence may continue to grow, and a more or less normal human being can result. But normal human beings are the exception. Nearly everyone has only the essence of a child. It is not natural that in a grown-up man the essence should be a child. Because of this, he remains timid underneath and full of apprehensions. This is because he knows that he is not what he pretends to be, but he cannot understand why.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hey Ninae, all forms of breathwork I use involve consciously connected breathing. No pauses in the breath. These fall in the categories of Michael Brown's breathwork from the Presence Process, Holotropic breathwork, rebirthing and most recently transformative breathwork which I find extremely powerful and am being facilitated in.

 

[Ninae]

I find it interesting as I was "rebirthed" once and after an hour of hard breathing through the mouth, which was pretty tiresome, I was feeling a mild buzz in my body and some sort of heightened consciousness state.

But I think I read breathing for 2 hours can remove all the toxins in your cells or something like that. I guess it can work as a form of antioxidant.

 

[Jabberwocky]

With practice and the right frame of mind you can achieve what you achieve in a two hour session in two minutes. The buzz is just the beginning. There are vibrational barriers in breathing just like in out-of body experiences. In that case you are lucky if you can get through a 2 hour session without stopping to bliss out. Just saying. There's a lot going on that needs to be integrated before it works efficiently for a person. It's all about physical, mental, emotional and spiritual integration as far as I understand. That's why Michael Browns gentler approach is so effective as preparation for rebirthing sessions. This is coming from someone with a lot of baggage they had to process before it started really working for me.

 

[Ninae]

Thanks, that sounds perfect. I've been meaning to look more into this for some time.
But how did you learn about it? Is there a book available?

 

[Jabberwocky]

The best place to start for a conceptual framework would be "The Presence Process" by Michael Brown. You can just read it or go through it experientially. Takes a certain commitment to go through it experientially, but it's not difficult or complicated. The Presence Process is self-facilitated. Transformational Breathwork recommends "The Presence Process" as theory for their own breathing which is slightly different

http://transformationalbreath.com/

Once I discovered that Michael Brown was himself being facilitated by the transformational breath people I gave it a try too. It's been amazing so far. Starts out facilitated then you reach a point where you self-facilitate.

 

[Foreigner]

Because of this, he remains timid underneath and full of apprehensions. This is because he knows that he is not what he pretends to be, but he cannot understand why.

Genius.

I don't agree that essence is something we develop, it's just a practice. Essence can't be timid or afraid, it just is. But, to paraphrase Gurdjieff, an ego that is vaguely aware that it's not real will go through this kind of torment, but not really understand why... not until "essence" is practiced and the ego ceases to be.

Gurdjieff almost got it. His descriptions are pretty accurate, especially in terms of children. Children tend to be pure awareness, until the personality and ego layers get added later by conditioning. I'm not sure what to think of the idea that we maintain an immature core because essence has been ignored. It likely has more to do with the fact that children are generally not raised to be independent, critical thinkers, and are certainly not taught by the system how to take care of themselves in adulthood. I don't think that speaks to essence or present awareness though. Life skills are a quality of knowledge and mind, not really inner essence.