Opioids Oxycodone - how long after WD before starting again

[msedward43]

long story short. have a fucked up back and due to the insane war on opioids nearly imossible to get a full script. so to limp me along I've been able to chip since 2014. 1 day a week, one dose of a couple 10s. It allows me to kind of have just enough of an afternoon of pain relief to get some sleep. I went through full WD's back in early 2016 when I first messed around with a script and had to WD fully. Nothing big, shook it off. My thing is, due to a servere uptick in my spine I got a few weeks were I had a second dose mid week and did this a couple weeks in a row. Long story short it triggered MILD withdrawlas (flu like symptoms. feel crummy with mild sweat and clamminess). I mistook it for linger flu symptoms because I got sick with the fl 2-3 weeks ago. When I figured it out this weekend I figured that I had built up a little in my system from doubling up a few weeks in a row, it was triggering mild WD's and I was getting over it 90% by the end of the week, but 1 week wasn't long enough to get ALLLLLL of it out and it was restrating it every friday...e.g, I feel flu crummy for a few days, and it tapers down to nearly nothing by the end of the week. Then restarts.

ANYWHOO, I figure I should take a few weeks off and flush my system out THOROUGHLY so it doesn't trigger them on the next dose and go back to my once every 8-10 days like I did in the past. My question is... how long should I wait to be double sure WD's are completely gone with everything flushed from my system and it won't start up next time? 2 weeks? 3 weeks? a full month? I had this happen that one time in 2015 when I was young and dumb and wasn't being razor careful, but it's been about 7 years since then and I can't remember how long I took to make sure. I just want to make sure I have a large enough window that I make sure it's ALLLLLL done instead of starting up too soon and restarting it again

And I know, there's the age old "once you've stopped why start again?". Well, I chipped successfully for almost 7 years and I only get 4 doses a month from my source, so it's hard to go overboard and I'd like to at least have a couple afternoons a month of no pain if I can. But yeah, I get it, and if I can't successfully chip after this, I know it's time to walk away (and to be fair, the WD symptoms are very mild. just achey muscles, some mild sweating and a .75 degree fever for 2-3 days then vanishing by the end of the weak. that's literally IT, I just don't want to keep restarting the cycle I caused a few weeks back if I can help it)

 

[Snafu in the Void]

It takes around 1-3 months to fully reset tolerance, with that last 10% stubbornly taking the longest.

However, I suspect you may be experiencing kindling, which to my knowledge never goes away. It's a bit odd to experience withdrawal from only dosing 2 times per week in reasonable therapeutic doses, but on a long term scale of things, this could potentially happen (especially if you dosed daily at first and formed a genuine dependence). I'd guess either kindling or a psychosomatic induction of wds which is very possible.

Kindling forms with years of repeated cessation of a drug, it slowly gets worse and worse every time. Eventually even a minor withdrawal may feel severe. It's known to happen from both opioids and GABAergic drugs like alcohol/benzos.

Anyways, I would say at least 1 month to flush out your system, optimally longer maybe 2 or 3 months.

 

[msedward43]

It takes around 1-3 months to fully reset tolerance, with that last 10% stubbornly taking the longest.

However, I suspect you may be experiencing kindling, which to my knowledge never goes away. It's a bit odd to experience withdrawal from only dosing 2 times per week in reasonable therapeutic doses, but on a long term scale of things, this could potentially happen (especially if you dosed daily at first and formed a genuine dependence). I'd guess either kindling or a psychosomatic induction of wds which is very possible.

Anyways, I would say at least 1 month to flush out your system, optimally longer maybe 2 or 3 months.

Not so worried about resetting TOLERANCE, as much as I want to make sure any and all WD's were completely flushed from my system so as not to accidentally retrigger them when starting again.

I should have said, I WAS fully dependent on them from like 7 or so years ago back when they gave that shit out like candy. I went through FULL withdrawals, which is the reason I switched to chipping after I took a month or so break. I found that if I took two doses too close together it kick started mild withdrawals, so I stuck to a certain schedule so it flushed from my system before my next weekly dose. I'd guess less psychosymatic as I've been on this schedule for like a full 6 years and never had a problem until this last month when I shrunk the dates a few days multiple times and got lazy with being STUPID strict about having a full week between doses (heck, i've been on the same DOSE for the last 6 years without raising it lol). Like I said, I haven't had WD symptoms since 2016 except the obviouso next day "rebound" affect coming off of the night before where I might feel a little light headed and shakey. But that vanishes quick and I've always been good on the same schedule till I got super fucked up on the back and started shrinking the dates again stupidly. But at the same time psychosymatic might actually be a thing too. I've been SUPER strict about sticking to a schedule, and was feeling really guilty and overthinking the "what if" when I took those several weeks of extra doses. Ah well, we'll find out.

not familiar with the term kindling though.

EDIT: Ahhh, I know what kindling is now. Yeah, I just didn't think about it since I hadn't actually had Withdrawals for like 6 years and it would only be my 3rd time withdrawing, and I thought kindling only happened when you pounded multiple withdrawals over and over again.. X fingers that it's not, but if so, I can walk away. I have a few doses left that I can use up after I flush my system and see how I do. If I can't get away with it, time to fully quit. Since I never let myself get more than 4 doses a month I've staved off the major issues most people have with it, but I've known this day was coming for years as we all hit it sooner or later

 

[cdin]

It takes around 1-3 months to fully reset tolerance, with that last 10% stubbornly taking the longest.

However, I suspect you may be experiencing kindling, which to my knowledge never goes away. It's a bit odd to experience withdrawal from only dosing 2 times per week in reasonable therapeutic doses, but on a long term scale of things, this could potentially happen (especially if you dosed daily at first and formed a genuine dependence). I'd guess either kindling or a psychosomatic induction of wds which is very possible.

Kindling forms with years of repeated cessation of a drug, it slowly gets worse and worse every time. Eventually even a minor withdrawal may feel severe. It's known to happen from both opioids and GABAergic drugs like alcohol/benzos.

Anyways, I would say at least 1 month to flush out your system, optimally longer maybe 2 or 3 months.

afaik kindling is a phenomena specific to GABA agents. It is created by overactive glutamate/rebound electrical damage at a low level over time messing w seizure threshold and GABA receptors.
I absolutely think repeat withdrawal in general and downregulated receptors makes subsequent wd more easy to get/more difficult to kick, just the specific mechanism of kindly is about that rebound neurotoxicity which afaik doesn't exist with opioids.
If im incorrect, please let me know.

 

[cdin]

Not so worried about resetting TOLERANCE, as much as I want to make sure any and all WD's were completely flushed from my system so as not to accidentally retrigger them when starting again.

I should have said, I WAS fully dependent on them from like 7 or so years ago back when they gave that shit out like candy. I went through FULL withdrawals, which is the reason I switched to chipping after I took a month or so break. I found that if I took two doses too close together it kick started mild withdrawals, so I stuck to a certain schedule so it flushed from my system before my next weekly dose. I'd guess less psychosymatic as I've been on this schedule for like a full 6 years and never had a problem until this last month when I shrunk the dates a few days multiple times and got lazy with being STUPID strict about having a full week between doses (heck, i've been on the same DOSE for the last 6 years without raising it lol). Like I said, I haven't had WD symptoms since 2016 except the obviouso next day "rebound" affect coming off of the night before where I might feel a little light headed and shakey. But that vanishes quick and I've always been good on the same schedule till I got super fucked up on the back and started shrinking the dates again stupidly. But at the same time psychosymatic might actually be a thing too. I've been SUPER strict about sticking to a schedule, and was feeling really guilty and overthinking the "what if" when I took those several weeks of extra doses. Ah well, we'll find out.

not familiar with the term kindling though.

EDIT: Ahhh, I know what kindling is now. Yeah, I just didn't think about it since I hadn't actually had Withdrawals for like 6 years and it would only be my 3rd time withdrawing, and I thought kindling only happened when you pounded multiple withdrawals over and over again.. X fingers that it's not, but if so, I can walk away. I have a few doses left that I can use up after I flush my system and see how I do. If I can't get away with it, time to fully quit. Since I never let myself get more than 4 doses a month I've staved off the major issues most people have with it, but I've known this day was coming for years as we all hit it sooner or later

ultra low dose naltrexone and black seed oil will help a lot not forming additional habits. corydalis might also be helpful for you. i have yet to try that one, ordering some now.

 

[msedward43]

afaik kindling is a phenomena specific to GABA agents. It is created by overactive glutamate/rebound electrical damage at a low level over time messing w seizure threshold and GABA receptors.
I absolutely think repeat withdrawal in general and downregulated receptors makes subsequent wd more easy to get/more difficult to kick, just the specific mechanism of kindly is about that rebound neurotoxicity which afaik doesn't exist with opioids.
If im incorrect, please let me know.

One thing I didn't think of was I WAS using Xanax 0.5 mg for panic attacks for the last 6 months ( only about once every 1-2 weeks when I had a major attack...2mg a month max) but I noticed it was becoming less effect so I told my Dr. To stop prescribing them a month ago. Those I was actually scared of becoming a habit and my panic attacks have been helped a lot through meditation. So I ditched those and am never looking back. I see all the problems people have with benzos and I don't want to get hooked

That was the only GABA acting product I even used

 

[nznity]

afaik kindling is a phenomena specific to GABA agents. It is created by overactive glutamate/rebound electrical damage at a low level over time messing w seizure threshold and GABA receptors.
I absolutely think repeat withdrawal in general and downregulated receptors makes subsequent wd more easy to get/more difficult to kick, just the specific mechanism of kindly is about that rebound neurotoxicity which afaik doesn't exist with opioids.
If im incorrect, please let me know.

Kindling is not only exclusively for GABAergic drugs, it happens the same with opioids. The tolerance u get each and eveytime you experience withdrawal changes permanently. If I tried chipping 10 years ago, I could use either oxy or morphine for a week and hsve minimal wds. If I use opioids now, 2-3 days in a row is enough to send me in moderate wds, if i use for a week+ I'm back on severe wds so yeah. The kindling effect is real for opioids too.

 

[cdin]

Involvement of multiple opiate receptors in opioid kindling

d-Tyr-Ser-Gly-Phe-Leu-Thr (DSLET), β-endorphin, morphiceptin and morphine were microinjected at 48-h intervals into the amygdala or hippocampus of awa…

www.sciencedirect.com

I was wrong. nzinity, you are correct. that is only shown using opioid peptides, but that's good enough for me. it's downregulating and clearly messing long term w the electrical system. nice. glad to learn something new.

 

[msedward43]

All nerd nit-pick aside I def hope it's not kindling. I've been very severe in sticking to once a week and not had any real wd symptoms for 6 years...

I'm also wondering if me getting really sick a few weeks ago caused something to stick in my system longer than usual causing it to stir something up cuz it all started when I got sick 3 weeks back (and I used my normal weekend dose while sick). I just assumed the flu like symptoms from last week was remnants of that till I put two and two together. Heck these wds are like HALF the severity of the ones I had 6 years ago. Just weak muscles some sweating and some agitation in the legs at night. I just had the flu 3 weeks ago and it was twice as bad lol (that's actually why I didn't notice it at first. I just thought it was lingering flu symptoms.... well omicron covid symptoms as that's what I had... and only confirmed it this last time when I took my weekly dose and I felt GREAT for 24 hours, only for symptoms to return right aound that mark)

 

[cdin]

all i know is that for the type of dosing schedule you're on, (which i have also done) the thing that i feel really kept any habit at bay was being religious about dosing an antagonist w my agonist doses.

 

[msedward43]

all i know is that for the type of dosing schedule you're on, (which i have also done) the thing that i feel really kept any habit at bay was being religious about dosing an antagonist w my agonist doses.

By habit are you talking about the urge to take more and more and more and more? Or are you talking about dependency.?

 

[cdin]

i've been pretty over them since my burns, i don't ever desire to do them at this point, i do them in response to pain. So yeah, im talking about dependency.

 

[msedward43]

i've been pretty over them since my burns, i don't ever desire to do them at this point, i do them in response to pain. So yeah, im talking about dependency.

Interesting. I've never heard about that before. Not doubting you. Just saying I'd never heard about anything being able to stand in the way of a drug creating physical dependency and alleviating subsequent wd's.

 

[cdin]

there's two. naltrexone absolutely works, and a friend put me onto another the other day i have yet to try: corydalis.

In addition to the potentiation of opioid-induced analgesia, “ultra-low” doses of naloxone have been shown to prevent withdrawal symptoms upon opioid discontinuation in mice exposed to opioids chronically. Cruciani et al. also have reported that intrathecal administration of antisense oligodeoxynucleotide (ODN) to Gsα protein prevented the development of, and reversed, tolerance to morphine. Together, these findings support the notion that a Gsα protein, which may be involved in the opioid excitatory effect, is involved in the development of tolerance to opioids.
----- https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S0885-3924(03)00139-8/pdf

DEFINE_ME

UCI-led Study Finds Medicinal Plant Extract to Prevent Morphine Addiction and Potentially Help Curb the Opioid Epidemic

The extract of the plant Corydalis yanhusuo prevents morphine tolerance and dependence while also reversing opiate addiction, according to a recent study led by UCI....

pharmsci.uci.edu

opioids are mu-agonists and cause downregulation of receptor sites, running an antagonist influences things the opposite way and can help return/keep you at homeostasis much better.

 

[msedward43]

on a side note. my symptoms went away late last night at the end of day 3. feel healthier than a horse today. really really fucking weird though. Never had them THIS light, and over this bizarrely fast too. Wondering if it was something else, or remnants of the flu mixing with some weird psychosymatic WDs... or WHAT... all I know Is I'm going to not rush back in and take it easy and see what I can do.

I will take your advice on the Naltrexone under advisement and see what I can dig up.