Nicomorphinist
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2019
- Messages
- 1,401
I have been looking at the media articles about loperamide that have come out recently, as I have done I the past, to compare with Kratom, various other herbal remedies, tianeptine, diphenoxylate and difenoxin, clonidine, codeine, dextropropoxyphene, meptazinol, dihydrocodeine, tramadol, benzodiazepines, carisoprodol, poppy seeds, gabapentinoids, dextromethorphan, and other self-detox tools and I am seeing even more than in the past that start right out with the claim that people seek out loperamide to get high . . . do people really do that? How many? There are reasons I think it is not many. People can read all sorts of things on Bluelight about how dangerous this kind of thing is.
Cardiotoxicity is the main issue and it can present problems quickly. Like other 4-phenylpiperidine opioids like pethidine and the prodines, loperamide also has at least moderately neurotoxic metabolites, myoclonus being a common effect of them. Deaths from direct loperamide overdose have also been reported, ten or so since 1985, perhaps more now . . .
Like the other self-help tools in question, the idea behind trying to get rid of them in the USA is so that people have to go to the gangsters who run rehabilitation clinics based on unscientific and cultic ideas and have a corrupt relationship with government and others and are pushing the theory of an "opioid cri$i$" to enrich themselves.
There actually is a way to use loperamide, and its relatives diphenoxylate and difenoxin, to reduce the misery and risk of dehydration associated with narcotic withdrawal, but the methods much more closely resemble the published instructions for using these medications. If people have discovered differing details, certainly post them to make this thread maximally useful to people trying to manage their opioid usage.
There are alternatives, of course -- one which does most or all of what is necessary involves poppy seeds and/or other parts of the plant ; the agent in question of course is whole opium in one form or another and specifically the phenathrene alkaloids thereof morphine and codeine. The seeds are unassailably legal and are discussed in a number of threads in this topic in greater detail. There has been a lot said about them on Bluelight in this sub board and others, of course,
Most recently, there were the threats made which which made quislings like Wal-Mart and Amazon.com management especially quick to bend over and remove "unwashed poppy seeds." Then there was FDA persecution of one seller of seeds with washing instructions on line and an essentially unenforceable law passed by Clowngress for the usual reasons. Sure some firms may try it, but their seeds are then useless for cooking and can potentially become unsaleable before leaving the factory. The morphine, codeine, and noscapine are what make the seeds tasty.
Given how easily Papaver Somniferum Linnaeus 1762 grows how many possible places, the fact that other Papaverales, some other poppies, and some other plants make (albeit a lot less) morphine and codeine &c, and the necessity of all sorts of poppy products from seeds to medicines to press cakes from processing to straw itself (exhausted or otherwise) for cattle to eat and all that means that since Harry Anslinger and the Federal Bureau of Narcotics were rebuffed by the courts in the 1930s when going after immigrant housewives using traditional Czech, Slovak, Croatian, Serbian, Polish, Hungarian and other such home remedy recipes in the Middle West and other places, the methods used for dealing with poppy-related issues are essentially obscurantist and centre more on disinformation and silence with occasional outrages like the above. There. of course, is the habitation potential, but not the cardiotoxicity and neurotoxic metabolites piling up.
If depression and anxiety are a big part of it, using loperamide to affect that directly is not a good strategy and could very well be biologically impossible; with this kind of thing, individual body chemistry also plays a large a part. Anything which impacts the levels of dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine and so on in particular can make one feel better in general, and there are actually all manner of drugs, including some antihistamines, beta blockers, alpha adrenergic agents of various types, catabolic steroids, sedatives and sleep aids, muscle relaxants, non-opioid centrally-acting analgesics, other analgesics, old antidepressants and many others which do this and researching it here and elsewhere can lead one to solutions which make things easier. Other possibilities in some places are the dopaminergic stimulants and weak, partial agonist, and agonist-antagonist narcotics under minimal or no control in some locales . . .
First generation anti-depressants, second-generation anti-depressants, atypicals like tianeptine can be useful to help detoxify, and a lot of these drugs have their own analgesic effects as well, as do chemically and structurally similar drugs which include muscle relaxants and antihistamines amongst so much else,.
Diphenoxylate is probably less cardiotoxic and certainly has more obvious narcotic effects than loperamide. Difenoxin is the active metabolite into which is it made in the liver. Loperamide has a rather large number of metabolites and it is these which cause the problems to a large extent. It is obvious that these drugs cross the blood-brain barrier in a large enough quantities and stay there long enough to have central opioid agonist effects, especially when people take them with herbs and medications to alter the metabolic profile to make this happen more.
For one thing, the incomplete cross-tolerance with almost all other opioids (and therefore, amongst other things, the near-certainty that no one is coming off a combined alphaprodine, norpethidine, piritramide, and normethadone habit) make it unnecessary to try some kind of equianalgesia calculation at the outset . . . the idea is to stop the diarrhoea and cramping and index the dose to attenuate other symptoms as they are caused by the same kind of receptors . . .
The cardiac issues include Torsade de Pointes and prolonged QT interval . . . if one has any history or family history of that kind of thing, one certainly should consult a physician before taking the stuff at all, and the medical profession will have better tools to be used for this purpose that should be available, all other things being equal.
So it is possible to start the experiment with it at four tablets, which is twice the usual loading dose, and a common starting dose for people who take it under doctors' care for Irritable Bowel Syndrome if they are also taking opioid agonists which are partially cross-tolerant with the loperamide-diphenoxylate 4-phenylpiperidines and all other centrally-acting anti-peristaltics aside from the pure anticholinergics, which are usually used alongside them rather than by themselves* -- other anti-diarrhoeals like bismuth subsalicylate use very different mechanisms and a some like kaolin and pectin are not even absorbed. If this is all done systematically, it is entirely possible to reach a 48-hour dosing interval for the loperamide after a few days because the half-life is so long and it does build up, and since it slows down the digestive tract it stays around longer anyways.
There may be some people trying to get high with loperamide but think of how many pethidine freaks you know and consider that is the main narcotic anything like loperamide for euphorigenisis, At any case there is probably a Darwinian mechanism at work to make that group very, very small, also, If people start eating huge amounts of loperamide, the worst of the worst cases end up in hospital very rapidly as four seconds of torsades de pointes puts the patient on the floor and all sorts of other things like not being able to focus the eyes and symptoms similar to atropine poisoning from loperamide's intrinsic anticholinergic effects supervene. Then there is the nausea of the loperamide, and gastric stasis vomiting, plus the pain of feeling like one's gut feels like a sewer pipe even before their heart feels like an alligator -- this pain becomes extreme in the case of a paralytic ileus, and the modest analgesia provided won't touch it . . .
Something I have yet to see mentioned, but which was something always part of the literature and warnings on bottle for things like DTO, paregoric, and remedies containing them or powdered opium usually in combination with attapulgite and tincture of belladonna, is the low to moderate risk that extreme and especially prolonged and repeated constipation puts one at for appendicitis.
---
* This is the group of antimuscarinics such as belladonna derivatives and tertiary amine/quaternary ammonium salt anticholinergics like dicycloverine -- and other drugs like this like trihexyphenidyl, orphenadrine, diphenhydramine, benztropine and other Big 16 anticholinergics will have side effects which do practically the same thing as well; to lesser extents, tricyclics and phenothiazines do the same thing.
Cardiotoxicity is the main issue and it can present problems quickly. Like other 4-phenylpiperidine opioids like pethidine and the prodines, loperamide also has at least moderately neurotoxic metabolites, myoclonus being a common effect of them. Deaths from direct loperamide overdose have also been reported, ten or so since 1985, perhaps more now . . .
Like the other self-help tools in question, the idea behind trying to get rid of them in the USA is so that people have to go to the gangsters who run rehabilitation clinics based on unscientific and cultic ideas and have a corrupt relationship with government and others and are pushing the theory of an "opioid cri$i$" to enrich themselves.
There actually is a way to use loperamide, and its relatives diphenoxylate and difenoxin, to reduce the misery and risk of dehydration associated with narcotic withdrawal, but the methods much more closely resemble the published instructions for using these medications. If people have discovered differing details, certainly post them to make this thread maximally useful to people trying to manage their opioid usage.
There are alternatives, of course -- one which does most or all of what is necessary involves poppy seeds and/or other parts of the plant ; the agent in question of course is whole opium in one form or another and specifically the phenathrene alkaloids thereof morphine and codeine. The seeds are unassailably legal and are discussed in a number of threads in this topic in greater detail. There has been a lot said about them on Bluelight in this sub board and others, of course,
Most recently, there were the threats made which which made quislings like Wal-Mart and Amazon.com management especially quick to bend over and remove "unwashed poppy seeds." Then there was FDA persecution of one seller of seeds with washing instructions on line and an essentially unenforceable law passed by Clowngress for the usual reasons. Sure some firms may try it, but their seeds are then useless for cooking and can potentially become unsaleable before leaving the factory. The morphine, codeine, and noscapine are what make the seeds tasty.
Given how easily Papaver Somniferum Linnaeus 1762 grows how many possible places, the fact that other Papaverales, some other poppies, and some other plants make (albeit a lot less) morphine and codeine &c, and the necessity of all sorts of poppy products from seeds to medicines to press cakes from processing to straw itself (exhausted or otherwise) for cattle to eat and all that means that since Harry Anslinger and the Federal Bureau of Narcotics were rebuffed by the courts in the 1930s when going after immigrant housewives using traditional Czech, Slovak, Croatian, Serbian, Polish, Hungarian and other such home remedy recipes in the Middle West and other places, the methods used for dealing with poppy-related issues are essentially obscurantist and centre more on disinformation and silence with occasional outrages like the above. There. of course, is the habitation potential, but not the cardiotoxicity and neurotoxic metabolites piling up.
If depression and anxiety are a big part of it, using loperamide to affect that directly is not a good strategy and could very well be biologically impossible; with this kind of thing, individual body chemistry also plays a large a part. Anything which impacts the levels of dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine and so on in particular can make one feel better in general, and there are actually all manner of drugs, including some antihistamines, beta blockers, alpha adrenergic agents of various types, catabolic steroids, sedatives and sleep aids, muscle relaxants, non-opioid centrally-acting analgesics, other analgesics, old antidepressants and many others which do this and researching it here and elsewhere can lead one to solutions which make things easier. Other possibilities in some places are the dopaminergic stimulants and weak, partial agonist, and agonist-antagonist narcotics under minimal or no control in some locales . . .
First generation anti-depressants, second-generation anti-depressants, atypicals like tianeptine can be useful to help detoxify, and a lot of these drugs have their own analgesic effects as well, as do chemically and structurally similar drugs which include muscle relaxants and antihistamines amongst so much else,.
Diphenoxylate is probably less cardiotoxic and certainly has more obvious narcotic effects than loperamide. Difenoxin is the active metabolite into which is it made in the liver. Loperamide has a rather large number of metabolites and it is these which cause the problems to a large extent. It is obvious that these drugs cross the blood-brain barrier in a large enough quantities and stay there long enough to have central opioid agonist effects, especially when people take them with herbs and medications to alter the metabolic profile to make this happen more.
For one thing, the incomplete cross-tolerance with almost all other opioids (and therefore, amongst other things, the near-certainty that no one is coming off a combined alphaprodine, norpethidine, piritramide, and normethadone habit) make it unnecessary to try some kind of equianalgesia calculation at the outset . . . the idea is to stop the diarrhoea and cramping and index the dose to attenuate other symptoms as they are caused by the same kind of receptors . . .
The cardiac issues include Torsade de Pointes and prolonged QT interval . . . if one has any history or family history of that kind of thing, one certainly should consult a physician before taking the stuff at all, and the medical profession will have better tools to be used for this purpose that should be available, all other things being equal.
So it is possible to start the experiment with it at four tablets, which is twice the usual loading dose, and a common starting dose for people who take it under doctors' care for Irritable Bowel Syndrome if they are also taking opioid agonists which are partially cross-tolerant with the loperamide-diphenoxylate 4-phenylpiperidines and all other centrally-acting anti-peristaltics aside from the pure anticholinergics, which are usually used alongside them rather than by themselves* -- other anti-diarrhoeals like bismuth subsalicylate use very different mechanisms and a some like kaolin and pectin are not even absorbed. If this is all done systematically, it is entirely possible to reach a 48-hour dosing interval for the loperamide after a few days because the half-life is so long and it does build up, and since it slows down the digestive tract it stays around longer anyways.
There may be some people trying to get high with loperamide but think of how many pethidine freaks you know and consider that is the main narcotic anything like loperamide for euphorigenisis, At any case there is probably a Darwinian mechanism at work to make that group very, very small, also, If people start eating huge amounts of loperamide, the worst of the worst cases end up in hospital very rapidly as four seconds of torsades de pointes puts the patient on the floor and all sorts of other things like not being able to focus the eyes and symptoms similar to atropine poisoning from loperamide's intrinsic anticholinergic effects supervene. Then there is the nausea of the loperamide, and gastric stasis vomiting, plus the pain of feeling like one's gut feels like a sewer pipe even before their heart feels like an alligator -- this pain becomes extreme in the case of a paralytic ileus, and the modest analgesia provided won't touch it . . .
Something I have yet to see mentioned, but which was something always part of the literature and warnings on bottle for things like DTO, paregoric, and remedies containing them or powdered opium usually in combination with attapulgite and tincture of belladonna, is the low to moderate risk that extreme and especially prolonged and repeated constipation puts one at for appendicitis.
---
* This is the group of antimuscarinics such as belladonna derivatives and tertiary amine/quaternary ammonium salt anticholinergics like dicycloverine -- and other drugs like this like trihexyphenidyl, orphenadrine, diphenhydramine, benztropine and other Big 16 anticholinergics will have side effects which do practically the same thing as well; to lesser extents, tricyclics and phenothiazines do the same thing.
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no one'll ever amass such knowledge 
