Opiates for cold or flu?

[Michael1706]

Well I understood most of your post but my medical knowledge is more basic than yours so I can't really respond (plus english is my 3rd language) but only read with interest.

 

[Watson_540]

I took my ex gf to th er once Bc of an extremely bad cold she had and I was thinking yes! We?re going to get some syrup but, and this is the only time I e seen this they actually wrote her a small script of dros on account of her high fever

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

The deadliest flu types, such as the infamous 'spanish flu' for example, rather than killing the weakest, oldest, very youngest, it took out the young and strong, their lungs filling with fluid, and drowning them alive in their own blood plasma. This is due to what is called a cytokine storm. Cytokines are a broad class of immunological signalling molecules, with both pro- and anti-inflammatory types, such as the interleukins, TNF-alpha, interferons and many others, the cytokine system is extremely complex, but there are, to render things extremely simplistic, both inflammatory mediators and antiinflammatory cytokines, and during the event known as a cytokine storm, a massive release of proinflammatory cytokines takes place, causing systemic inflammation, pulmonary oedema, potentially tissue necrosis, vasculature becomes permeable to fluid, resulting in blood volume loss due to leakage and resulting in hypovolaemic shock. It isn't so much the flu virus itself that kills, in such cases, its the body's reaction to it, overreacting, and pushing these defensive systems into overdrive, and this is what kills. Similar things are responsible for much of the damage done during sepsis and septic shock.

And remember, for a poster-child example of a cytokine storm uncomplicated by infection, that disaster drug by Te Genero?
This involved a drug in clinical trials, TGN-1412, designed to be an immunostimulant, as a direct superagonist monoclonal antibody, and it had shown no indications of the disaster that was to come, the drug worked by nonspecifically and powerfully activating T-lymphocytes. Unfortunately, the animals it was tested on, had been raised in germ-free environments, and thus had no cellular antigenic memory of pathogens; which is of course totally different from what happens in the natural world, in either animals or humans. And because these test animals' T-cells had never come up against an invader before, they had never received the priming they need to attack.

When it was tested in volunteers, at a fractional microdose of the least dose tested in animal trials, this of course wasn't the case, and it induced a massive cytokine storm in all the poor bastards who did not receive placebo. A huge releasing of proinflammatory mediators from white blood cells causing HORRENDOUS tissue damage, neurological/brain damage and causing people to swell up like balloons until it looked as if they were going to burst. The survivors won't ever be the same again, after their immune systems were essentially, rather than being carefully controlled, and releasing the inflammatory mediators where, when and how they are required, just nonspecifically activated then let off the leash. Like having a big vicious guard dog pack, and instead of setting them on an intruder, just letting them loose in the room and shouting 'kill the bastards boys! rip their fucking faces off!' without thought as to WHAT they are going to attack or who's face is to be ripped off and chewed like bubble gum.

Not to the same extent as that monoclonal antibody drug disaster from Te Genero (who went under after that as a result), that activated every T-cell in the victims and sent them to attack their own bodies, but lethal flu strains also cause these cytokine storms, and the increase in vascular permeability causes plasma to leak into the victim's lungs and drown them alive.

 

[Tranced]

Yeah nothing against antibiotics if you get a bad cold (bacteria) and you are in a bad state. They are live savers but have been overused to the point you can get multi resistant bacterial cultures in hospitals.

Or if you use the same kind of antibiotic more than 1-2 times per year.

The best CURE for a cold to me has been tea made of fresh salvia leaves. The normal salvia of course :D
Salvia has by far the strongest antibacterial effect of all herbs. Other ones might have better anti inflammatory effects but for a cold especially bronchitis. I swear by Salvia

A few years back I couldn't shift a cold so I googled cold remedies. It came up with a lot of information about various spices and herbs which could cure a cold, and I realised most of them were spicey and would work well in a curry. So that's where they went, with extra helpings. I even bunged in all the Mediterranean herbs that were reccomended because, well, why not. Olive oil was reccomended so I doused a nan bread in that. Lemon and cardamom were reccomended which took the edge off the ridiculous levels of chilli and spices. I perked up pretty much immediately and felt my airways clearing, and by the end of the night I was feeling better. By the next day the cold was gone.

Unfortunately my curry cold cure never really gathered steam and I'm yet to receive the recognition I deserve.

 

[JessFR]

Yeah nothing against antibiotics if you get a bad cold (bacteria) and you are in a bad state. They are live savers but have been overused to the point you can get multi resistant bacterial cultures in hospitals.

Or if you use the same kind of antibiotic more than 1-2 times per year.

The best CURE for a cold to me has been tea made of fresh salvia leaves. The normal salvia of course :D
Salvia has by far the strongest antibacterial effect of all herbs. Other ones might have better anti inflammatory effects but for a cold especially bronchitis. I swear by Salvia

Generally the word cold still means a virus. I mean it's not the most precisely defined word in the world, but most of what people understand to be colds are viral, like rhinovirus etc. So still no use for antibiotics. I agree of course that antibiotics are as close as you get to a miracle drug for what they target, so much so I was a little reluctant at pushing too hard at the anti-antibiotic argument. I mean, there are many times antibiotics are appropriate. We've just massively overused them. It's very disappointing that we've managed to fuck up their use so badly so quickly.

Then there are of course the gray areas of "preventing secondary infection". Which still contributes to overuse, but are at least a little more defendable. Depending on patient age, risk factors, etc.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

IMO 'preventing secondary infection' is something that only should be initiated as a matter of course in specifically vulnerable patient populations, such as those with immunological issues requiring prophylactic antibiotics. Otherwise, only used if someone actually develops a bacterial secondary infection, not just thrown at a cold or flu to make sure it doesn't happen.

That is precisely the sort of shitty medical practice that encourages the development of resistant strains. Just look at the likes of that new-delhi metalloproteinase resistance gene, there is almost nothing we can throw at that that will work.

And using them in animal feed, etc. is fucked up too.

Throwing antibiotics at anyone with a rhinoviral, coronavirus etc. infection just in the hope of it preventing a secondary bacterial infection is pointless and dangerous, unless in a specifically vulnerable, immunosuppressed patient, someone with CF, etc. At least for most such diseases. Perhaps another matter if someone is in intensive care in an isolation ward with a highly pathogenic variant like infection with the SARS or MERS coronaviruses, but generally, it just shouldn't be done.

 

[JessFR]

IMO 'preventing secondary infection' is something that only should be initiated as a matter of course in specifically vulnerable patient populations, such as those with immunological issues requiring prophylactic antibiotics. Otherwise, only used if someone actually develops a bacterial secondary infection, not just thrown at a cold or flu to make sure it doesn't happen.

That is precisely the sort of shitty medical practice that encourages the development of resistant strains. Just look at the likes of that new-delhi metalloproteinase resistance gene, there is almost nothing we can throw at that that will work.

And using them in animal feed, etc. is fucked up too.

Throwing antibiotics at anyone with a rhinoviral, coronavirus etc. infection just in the hope of it preventing a secondary bacterial infection is pointless and dangerous, unless in a specifically vulnerable, immunosuppressed patient, someone with CF, etc. At least for most such diseases. Perhaps another matter if someone is in intensive care in an isolation ward with a highly pathogenic variant like infection with the SARS or MERS coronaviruses, but generally, it just shouldn't be done.

I completely agree. Most of... No actually ALL of the people I know who've gotten antibiotics to "prevent secondary infection", which is about the same number of people who went to the doctor when they were sick.. Were not people who were at all likely to die even if they got a secondary infection.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

I worry about the amount of antibiotics I take, actually. I don't know the cause, at least not atm, but there seems to be something seriously wrong with my immune system, in that I have a serious vulnerability to bacterial infections, even a scratch, pinprick, minor cut can turn into a really nasty infection and very quickly.

I've ended up, after presumably sitting on something pointy, getting a splinter or something, with an infection that ate nearly down to my hip bone within days. Or a small (few mm in diameter) white phosphorus burn, aside from the obvious hurting like hell, and the toxic effects, as the WP poisoning resulted in a temporary although pretty severe near paralysis of the hand and arm attached to the wrist that took the WP burn, again, nasty infection. I'm lucky if I can go a few weeks without requiring a course of antibiotics, its almost killed me several times.

 

[LandsUnknown]

It could mask the symptoms, but it would do nothing to help you fight off the virus. Using something as strong as oxy for an ailment as minor as a cold or even for a nastier seasonal bug like the flu is a monumentally bad idea. The stuff can be very addictive, and taking it for a virus when you don't typically use it is simply not a risk worth taking. If you already take it for other reasons, it might make you feel a bit better. Though, it's certainly no cure.

 

[Volsam]

I worry about the amount of antibiotics I take, actually. I don't know the cause, at least not atm, but there seems to be something seriously wrong with my immune system, in that I have a serious vulnerability to bacterial infections, even a scratch, pinprick, minor cut can turn into a really nasty infection and very quickly.

I've ended up, after presumably sitting on something pointy, getting a splinter or something, with an infection that ate nearly down to my hip bone within days. Or a small (few mm in diameter) white phosphorus burn, aside from the obvious hurting like hell, and the toxic effects, as the WP poisoning resulted in a temporary although pretty severe near paralysis of the hand and arm attached to the wrist that took the WP burn, again, nasty infection. I'm lucky if I can go a few weeks without requiring a course of antibiotics, its almost killed me several times.

Jesus man, I'm sorry you are dealing with that... Have you read anything on TNF-a and how it affects the immune system and how a lot of drugs interacts with it too? C'mon, you are really smart, I think you can figure out what makes your immune system so vulnerable. How is your Vitamin D levels if you did any blood tests lately?

Being on topic, low dose of hydrocodone or opium helps me go through nasty flu, especially when the flu makes me extremely violent and shaky, it happens rarely and opiates are the best help for these symptoms.

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

I'm aware of TNF-alpha, and no I haven't had bloodwork done. I need to, and I know it, but given that I in the past, had a HUGE methoxetamine, 4-OH- 4-methoxy- 3-MeO- and 3-OH-PCP habit, my veins are difficult to find, even with ultrasound assistance. I've had a surgical anaesthetist struggle for hours with ultrasonography to find a vein, in the end I told him 'fuck it just use IM fent and sevoflurane, the only way a vein will be found is if I do it myself and even then good fucking luck', vitamin D levels are likely alright; as I take a multivitamin supplement, whilst I do not go out in sunlight (autie, photosensitivity, not something that ruled out sunlight to start with but I ended up having my cornea seared off by corrosives in one eye, and that DID make me really photophobic, I doubt there are many things that'll make one more shy of sunlight than getting a blast of alkali metal amides, alkoxides and hydroxides plus NH3 and ether in the eye. Never mind sensory gating issues, that, thats going to hurt like hell, autistic or NT.

Bloodwork is really difficult to get done, well, the forms for it are easy, and have been repeatedly done by my docs, but actually translating that into removing blood from vasculature is another kettle of fish altogether.

 

[oxyloveUK]

Opiates often completely stop the coughing, muscle/throat pain, insomnia, diarrhea, distress etc that nasty colds give so yes they could be considered perfect for them

oxycodone, hydrocodone, kratom work wonders for them for me

 

[Limpet_Chicken]

Yeah. And in any case, a cold isn't ever going to kill someone not seriously immunocompromised to begin with, so damn straight I'm going to dope myself up to the eyeballs.

Any time I catch a cold, its a few hundred mg IV or IM morphine, some oxy, and chlormethiazole a few times a day (DON'T combine chlormethiazole with depressants, people, it'll kill you probably, I've been taking it as antiseizure medication for years, and am a chronic pain patient. I know my limits, and I can tolerate carefully mixing the two, otherwise, DON'T do this!!!)

It makes me feel so much better, and also, taking a topical nasal decongestant spray, xylometazoline, to unblock my sinuses helps a ton. That, and lazing around sleeping on the sofa, playing the fallout series of games, or X-com games, is how I deal with a cold or the flu.

 

[Inc3pti0n]

In my experience when I?ve had the flu in a bad way 250mg tramadol brings me down to feeling normal, temperate drops to normal and I feel myself until it wears off. Codeine is in products especially for cold and flu too by the way. Opiates do help with cold and flu very much so

 

[Rafayte]

Opiates are very useful for cold and flu because stop cough, relieve pain in back, avoid diarrhea and give a peace feeling when you are feeling confused