No withdrawal Symptoms?

[Reever]

I have a bit of a strange query to an even more bizarre situation...

(My apologies for the length, I tend to be a very descriptive person, and I felt the history was necessary)

I have been dealing with cancer since I was about fifteen, and multiple Desmoid tumors (for which I have had multiple surgeries) since I was ~5, I am now thirty. I have been off and on some form of opiates since 2000, I stopped experiencing the majority of my pain in around 2002/3, and only needed pain meds occasionally. However, in 2009 I had a surgery to remove a Lymphangioma which had spread to several salivary glands in my neck/face that resulted in severe nerve damage, which requires around the clock opiates. Subsequent to that, the minor nerve damage in my chest/thorax from a tumor/broken rib/cryoablation procedure began to exhibit intense levels of pain. I was initially placed on Percocet 5MG, but slowly my dosage was increased due to a combination of inadequacy, and a level of depression/abuse on my part. After a ton of trial and error with Methadone, Oral Morphine, Percocet, and others, I was finally placed on a regiment of 12McG/Hour Fentanyl patches and 2MG Dilaudid as I would wake up in the night in pain several times a night, unfortunately, the Fentanyl patches would only seem to control the nerve damage in my face and chest, and not the actual pain from the broken rib, which is why we ended up with the Dilaudid as well.

In any way, within about a year of being placed on the Fentanyl I was up to 100McG/Hour patches (15/month @1 per 2 days), and 4MG Dilaudid (270/month). I have experienced a strange thing several times in my use. Including a time when I was without insurance, and began to snort Heroin (off and on for about six months), wherein with a certain combination of Opiates, I could stop cold turkey (not by choice) with no withdrawal symptoms! I mean, NONE! Whatsoever! Out of perhaps 20 times dealing with between a day and a week of withdrawal, maybe 4 times I have had this 'no withdrawal' experience.

For me, typically, minor withdrawal symptoms kick in within about 8 hours without my typical dosage, full on symptoms after around 12-20 hours (contingent upon how I have tapered off), however, right now, I am four days in, and not so much as a drop of sweat, or a bit of back pain, no RLS, or any of my typical symptoms, such as nausea, vomiting, sleeplessness, etc. etc. I had noticed in the past, that if I were to run out of my Fentanyl patches for example, and then switch to my Dilaudid, then run out of that, I would occasionally not experience withdrawal, other combinations have also worked, including combinations of Methadone/Percocet/Morphine/Dilaudid/Fentanyl/Heroin etc. etc. However, this time, I've run out of my Fentanyl patches, and not had my Dilaudid, and I have no withdrawal symptoms, as stated now, four days in and nothing.

However, that being said, I have been taking my 0.5MG Lorazepam (Ativan) at night for sleep. I started taking them (this time) about two days prior to running out of my patches, I take 3-5 before bedtime, so approximately 1.5-2.5MG once a day. I am not sure how this is happening, but as stated, it has happened several times with different combinations of Opiates, but never with my Lorazepam. I know that Benzodiazepines have somewhat a similar method of action as Opiates, but not THAT similar, how is this possible? What I do not understand, is that I can not do this every time, it seems to just 'happen' without any ability to control it. I have tried to do it on command in the past, with a combination of Opiates, doing exactly what I had done times past, but it did not work, then other times, when I was not even thinking about it (and being terribly concerned about being without my meds), it just happens, such as now.

Have I stumbled across something others have missed, that is possibly controllable, is this something that others have experienced? Or is this just a complete fluke, and only happens to occur at certain times when my body's chemistry is just right? My main hope, is that I can help others to improve upon this, and make it something controllable, imagine the positive benefits such a thing could have the world over, if there were no Opiate withdrawal!!! Unfortunately, I have the problem of actually needing the pain meds, I can go a little while without them, but eventually the pain reaches critical mass, and I simply can not tolerate it any more, and I am right back where I began, but I will say this, even with the levels of pain, it is a fantastic feeling to be clean, and not 'need' my meds for the few days I can get by. It would be even better if I could control when I do this, because there are times I just want to be able to think without the effects of massive quantities of Opiates coursing through my veins...

Again, if anybody has had a similar experience, please share, and perhaps we can work out how and why this occurs...


Thanks for reading,

~J

 

[sekio]

some people are just less sensitive to the withdrawal symptoms of opioids. and generally, people only have *real* problems when they get into high volume abuse of opioids/benzos. taking a few mg a day of lorazepam isn't generally enough to make you w/d.

you are just one lucky individual.

I know that Benzodiazepines have somewhat a similar method of action as Opiates

they don't actually, they work on a totally seperate part of your brain to cause sedation. the withdrawal from benzodiazepines is a lot different from opioid w/d.

step up your abuse to 25-50mg of alprazolam and several grams of morphine daily, and I'm sure you would have a miserable time.

 

[Reever]

people only have *real* problems when they get into high volume abuse of opioids/benzos. taking a few mg a day of lorazepam isn't generally enough to make you w/d.

I think you may have misread my post... I take, daily, 10.2MG of Fentanyl orally (Fentanyl 100McG/Hour duragesic patches), if/when I run out of those, I inject (filtered) about 40-60MG of Dilaudid (10-15 4MG tabs) every 4-8hrs, as well as having abused Heroin in the past (During a time I was without health insurance). I assure you, sadly, I am very well rooted in my addiction, and I am quite familiar with intense withdrawal, I ended up in the hospital about three weeks ago for it, oddly enough, because my doctor did not fill my prescription on time. I was simply stating the medications I have taken that seem to make this occur. It has happened once in the past with Benzos, but typically occurs during a change of Opiates for a few days, then running out completely. The Lorazepam is not what would put me through withdrawal, it is the ridiculous amount of Opiates I take daily.

Surely there is someone out there that has experienced such an occurrence once or twice...

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

^^Basically

I think a lot of withdrawal depends on ones relationship to the drug and their surroundings too (i.e. do you rely on drugs for happiness or do you have a stable support group of friends, are you in love, what amount of stress you encounter in life from various sources) and past (being immediately affected by past family/friend drug use, what you were taught [not just directly related to drugs] as a child about responsibility and ego).

edit: oh ok you've abused drugs in the past? was it just for pain (which you may have implied)? what about other considerations which i broadly elaborated upon?

 

[Reever]

I suppose that there is a complex manner of response I could communicate, however, I think the simpler path is likely most appropriate...

Growing up as a child my parents were both drug addicts and alcoholics. As such, I despised any mood altering substances, that is, until my girlfriend (at the time) forced me to request pain medication while I was in the hospital after a surgery for cancer. Following that, I did not use anything fort several years, and then off and on, in 2009 I started on low doses of Percocet, but due to a combination of pain and abuse, my dosage has skyrocketed in the last four years, and now I am maxed out with regards to what my insurance will allow. Currently, I am not able to work, and horribly depressed, there is absolutely nothing significantly positive in my life, I live in a craphole in the middle of nowhere, (literally Northern MN near Canada, the nearest 'city' is Virginia, MN and that is about 40 Mins away) that a 'friend' ended up screwing me into. As far as what I was taught as a child about drugs, responsibility and ego, nothing. Everything that I am I taught myself, based on observing what not to do in the examples given by my 'parents'.

As stated, just a month ago I went through some of the worst withdrawal symptoms ever, under nearly the exact same conditions, and the month before that I had about two days of withdrawal, but I had tapered, so it was not horrendous.


Thank you to those that are responding.

 

[Reever]

they don't actually, they work on a totally seperate part of your brain to cause sedation. the withdrawal from benzodiazepines is a lot different from opioid w/d.

Indeed I was mistaken, I am not exactly certain what medication I was thinking of, but clearly it was not Benzos.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

No problem, mate. It sounds like you are a strong-willed person who reacted generally beneficently to how your family abused drugs. That probably has something to do with it. Your psyche sounds like it built barriers towards destructive behaviors. I'm not a psychiatrist/psychologist or health professional though, this is just a layman commenting on what you told me. So catch me up: you're asking why you're not experiencing withdrawal symptoms now? I don't think I quite understand your question.

 

[Reever]

Thank you for the observations. I would say that you are pretty well spot on.

That is correct, it seems that 90% of the time, when I am out of my meds, I experience withdrawal symptoms, but there is that 10% of the time, where it is like I have never taken anything, and experience no symptoms, even though nothing else has changed. I mean, I am on a rather significant dosage of opiates, so I don't understand why most times I have withdrawals, and other times I have none. Perhaps there is some sort of body chemistry that has occurred by chance, is it from the low dosage of benzodiazepines I have taken, but how would that explain the times when I switch opiates and experience no withdrawals without the benzodiazepines?

I understand if there is simply no explanation, but I thought if there was, someone here would likely know.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

benzos are used to help people withdrawing from opiates but high dose benzo can't cover a low dose opiate withdrawal completely let alone the other way around. as sekio said they work on different areas of the brain.

its probable that others will have something to say on this, but im not sure.

apart from the above observation i could only concur that sometimes you psycho-somatically activate defenses against withdrawal before you go through it.

 

[Reever]

Again, not sure what the deal was, but starting the 16th the withdrawal symptoms began. Kind of confused about what took so long, as the onset is generally within twelve hours, max, for me. As stated, however, it has happened in the past that I have had none whatsoever for several weeks, but I guess figuring it out is probably not likely to happen.

Thank you all for your kindness and generousity in taking time out of your lives to help those of us with queries, it is truly a great thing that you do!

~J.

 

[ebola?]

Sorry to be 'that guy', but just so you know, this type of topic is better suited to Other Drugs. However, there's been a number of fruitful replies, so this thread can stay.

ebola

 

[Reever]

My apologies

Sorry to be 'that guy', but just so you know, this type of topic is better suited to Other Drugs. However, there's been a number of fruitful replies, so this thread can stay.

ebola

I apologize for having not posted in the correct forum. Entirely my fault, I did not do a thorough search as to where to post, and it seemed as though the 'Advanced' forum would be the right place. After having read this, I did go back to the forums to find 'Other Drugs' and only see 'Basic' and 'Advanced', where might I find 'Other'? I apologize for my noobery in this regard, I am actually quite independent in regards to such things, as well as being a Web Admin, I usually find things quickly and easily without help, and asking for help is quite well the bane of my existence, so please go easy on me... This is an attempt at trying to reduce my pridefulness.

 

[endotropic]

I apologize for having not posted in the correct forum. Entirely my fault, I did not do a thorough search as to where to post, and it seemed as though the 'Advanced' forum would be the right place. After having read this, I did go back to the forums to find 'Other Drugs' and only see 'Basic' and 'Advanced', where might I find 'Other'? I apologize for my noobery in this regard, I am actually quite independent in regards to such things, as well as being a Web Admin, I usually find things quickly and easily without help, and asking for help is quite well the bane of my existence, so please go easy on me... This is an attempt at trying to reduce my pridefulness.

From the http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/ home page you can find "Other Drugs" under the "Focus "Forums" heading. Other drugs is where people go to talk about their experiences using opioids (among other things), and you'll probably get some good answers there too, but I think this thread is fine here (I'm no mod though).

The first thing I thought when I read your case was that maybe the high dosage fentanyl patches were having some effect for a while after you took them off. Like maybe part of the dose was deposited under your skin and slowly leaked out into your blood stream, giving you enough of a dose to prevent withdrawal symptoms for a few days. I'm not familiar enough with how those patches work to say whether something like that is actually possible, someone more familiar with them might be able to say more.

 

[sekio]

The first thing I thought when I read your case was that maybe the high dosage fentanyl patches were having some effect for a while after you took them off. Like maybe part of the dose was deposited under your skin and slowly leaked out into your blood stream, giving you enough of a dose to prevent withdrawal symptoms for a few days.

This is actually pretty likely, the fentanyl transdermal patches work as long as they do because they use your skin/fat as a drug reservoir.

 

[throughthewormhole]

^^Basically

I think a lot of withdrawal depends on ones relationship to the drug and their surroundings too (i.e. do you rely on drugs for happiness or do you have a stable support group of friends, are you in love, what amount of stress you encounter in life from various sources) and past (being immediately affected by past family/friend drug use, what you were taught [not just directly related to drugs] as a child about responsibility and ego).

edit: oh ok you've abused drugs in the past? was it just for pain (which you may have implied)? what about other considerations which i broadly elaborated upon?

This.... I quit opiates cold turkey when i fel in love a few months ago... Been 4 years of using morphine n codeine ... Almost no withdrawl cuz i was thinking bout her constantly however it didnt work out and i fell right back into full blown abuse

 

[DJHENRU]

I have two points to make sense of this.
JONATHAN OTT SPEAKS… PART TWO
Beifuss/Hanna 1998 BPC Salvia divinorum Conference

Jonathan: Its a nightmare And pharmacogenetically, the higher your innate tolerance is to something, the more that correlates with possibilities of having “problems” with that drug, because by your very nature you have to take bigger and bigger doses to overcome that innate lack of sensitivity. It’s kind of counter-intuitive, but the less sensitive one is to a given type of substance, the more likely one is to have a problem relationship with that. Because by nature, in order to get the effect, you have to take bigger doses than a person who would be more sensitive. Instead of working to overcome tolerance, which is possible… Or they say, “Oh, no, we can’t give opiates to this cancer patient who’s screaming in agony, because he might become addicted.” Which is a lie
anyway. Because people that are taking opiates for extreme pain do not generally become addicted to them—that’s just a medical lie.
Will: Oh, is that right?
Jonathan: Yeah, because if anything, they tend to associate that… Well, let me qualify that. I would say people that like opiates are, at the most, 20% of the general population. Studies that have been done with naive subjects, where you inject them with heroin, the great majority of them have real dysphoric effects and never wish to repeat the experience. The ones that have the taste for opiates, say the one-in-ten or one-in-twenty, if they’ve for some reason never tried them before, and only in the context of a car accident or something, tried it for the first time, then yes. Those people could possibly become habituated. But the great majority of people don’t have that taste, they get more dysphoria than euphoria, and those people tend to associate the opiates with the other discomfort, loss of dignity, etc., of being in the hospital, so if anything they’re conditioned against it, not for it. And so that’s a lie. But they use this, and instead of exploring these technologies, which have been known for some decades, to prevent the development of tolerance, they’re now working on ways to enhance tolerance.

Im having trouble locating the second source but James A Duke made the suggestion in a paper that in treating alzheimer's("no magic bullet" came up when looking for this source) a single Ache inhibitor might not work as well as a multitude.

From smart-publications.com Rosemary-extract

Antioxidants have been proven to deactivate free radicals, but not all antioxidants are equal. In most cases, once an antioxidant has neutralized a free radical it is no longer useful as an antioxidant because it becomes an inert compound. Or even worse, it becomes a free radical itself. That’s where rosemary extract is significantly different. It has a longer life span of antioxidant activity. Not only that, it contains more than two dozen antioxidants, including carnosic acid, one of the only antioxidants that deactivates free radicals through a multilevel cascade approach. In vitro studies have shown that as carnosic acid attacks free radicals it is transformed into at least four other antioxidant compounds, each with the ability to neutralize additional free radicals. Most antioxidants do not have this same capacity. Instead, they neutralize a free radical and are transformed into an inert compound, or even worse, they become free radicals themselves. When rosemary extract is combined with other antioxidants its potency increases. For instance, vitamin E must be re-cycled after quenching a free radical before it can quench another. But when it is combined with rosemary extract, the carnosic acid, which starts the cascade effect, rejuvenates vitamin E back to its original state, so it can attack additional free radicals

I hope this wasnt too tangential. Remember all of those drugs have different specific sub-receptor activity, and I am overwhelmed with the timeframes to make specific sense right now. Blessings