• Psychedelic Drugs Welcome Guest
    View threads about
    Posting RulesBluelight Rules
    PD's Best Threads Index
    Social ThreadSupport Bluelight
    Psychedelic Beginner's FAQ

NMDA neurotoxicity question

Ego_tripper

Ego_tripper

Greenlighter
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
12
Does NMDA neurotoxicity happen during the trip or is it something that happens after the antagonist unbinds with the receptor? If so, is it possible to reduce the chances of neurotoxicity and still keep the cognitive effects by taking valium after the trip is over?
 
Could you please rephrase the question because it just doesn't make sense right now:
Include the name of the drug you're talking about that may or may not cause neurotoxicity?
Taking valium after tripping on whatever substance may decrease encitotoxicity resulting from GABAergic nervous inhibition but most often this has collateral effects limiting subsequential benefits, though this limitation could not possibly subdue all of the experiential progress that was made.
 
You can take any serotonin psychedelic to help it, low dose. It's said it prevents damage.
 
The drug is DXM, but I was curious about NMDA antagonists in general. I'm trying to figure out if taking a valium after a DXM trip will prevent neurotoxicity or if it would be too late. Does the glutamate kill the neurons during intoxication or is it something that happens afterwards? I know if I take a valium during the trip, it'll cancel out the cognitive effects, and prevent neurotoxicity.
 
Tips to prevent or limit the neurotoxicity, this goes for other NMDA antagonists as well although there might be some differences like combinations that are more dangerous with something like PCP.

- Avoid stimulants of any kind with DXM, especially yohimbine. Alpha2 agonists seem to prevent Olney's lesions (175); yohimbine, an alpha2 antagonist, could instead make the problem much, much worse.

- Make sure you are in good physical condition, with low blood pressure and low cholesterol. The ability of brain cells to recover from metabolic insults is vastly improved if cerebral blood circulation is in good shape.

- Consider Coenzyme Q10 supplementation. One paper suggested that Q10 might be useful in some types of neural lesions (216). It has been suggested that, as a mitochondrial energy substrate, it may prevent brain cells from "running out of fuel".

- Consider a very mild CNS depressant, like a glass of wine or a beer. I wouldn't go much beyond this, since combining DXM with too much alcohol can lead to severe nausea. A benzodiazepine is probably overkill.

- Use gelcaps or capsules instead of syrups, which contain glucose; the presence of high glucose levels seems to make things worse.

- Limit use of DXM extract, which doesn't contain bromide ions, or use it in conjunction with a little alcohol.

- Limit frequency and dosage of DXM
- Give your brain a rest of at least 48 hours after using DXM
- Eat healthily before, during, and after DXM use
- Consider an alpha2 agonist (175). Or maybe not; the research isn't conclusive on this yet.
- Regularly monitor your mental skills and have others monitor them as well.
- Make each DXM trip count so you don't feel the urge to reattempt an unfulfilling trip experience.

Probably the longer you wait with a depressant the more damage has already been done, I'm not even sure how much it will matter anymore if you wait like 12 hours after the trip. So as soon as possible should be best, but at the same time really watch your dosages because you could make matters worse than better.
 
While NMDA Antagonist Neurotoxicity is not really proven there is some evidence to suppost that it might happen like that, in any case dissociative users have sometimes shown lasting cognitive impairment and the reason right now is just Reason X.
The precautions I mentioned should work to limit whatever NMDA antagonists do to you.

You can't say this neurotoxicity is exactly the type of neurotoxicity seen with rats in high doses, not for sure at this point.
But I think its more than plausible that some adverse effects happen, more with PCP than with DXM than with ketamine as it now appears.
Whatever happens, benzo's cushion the nerves for a lot of things. If you want the best aspecific harm reduction it might still be your best bet.
 
I've been doing DXM for about 2 years now, usually occasional until the last 2 months. I know it wouldn't cause lesions with one time use, but neither does ketamine. Frequent doses of ketamine create lesions, so why wouldn't the same happen for DXM?

I use gelcaps, only active ingredient being dxm. I always considered the bromide ions to be bad, and I thought using a dxm extract with citric acid made it dextromethorphan citrate, eliminating the bromide. Is DXM citrate worse than HBr?
 
Last edited:
Well the only ingredient in the gelcaps you have is probably not "loose" DXM ... because DXM without something attached is DXM freebase. Most DXM encountered is in a salt form which means something is attached to it like HBr.
DXM HBr salt means that you have H-DXM+ and Br- , the Br- being the part you consider to be bad.
DXM Citrate salt means that you have H-DXM+ (protonated DXM) and the citrate negative ion with it. They are stuck together in solid form and split in a liquid swimming around freely.

If you have gelcaps with a DXM salt, most often encountered as the HBr then adding pure citric acid to it does not make the Br- go away.

But on a sidenote, with sensible dosages of DXM the toxic threshold for bromide is not reached so theoretically there is nothing to worry about.

Oh and the only way to make real DXM citrate is to make DXM freebase from a DXM salt, isolate that and salt it again with citric acid. That way, by means of the isolation step you get rid of the HBr and therefore the Br-.

Hope this makes sense to you, or perhaps I am explaining what you already know and misinterpreting what you said :)
 
Solipsis said:
Well the only ingredient in the gelcaps you have is probably not "loose" DXM ... because DXM without something attached is DXM freebase. Most DXM encountered is in a salt form which means something is attached to it like HBr.
DXM HBr salt means that you have H-DXM+ and Br- , the Br- being the part you consider to be bad.
DXM Citrate salt means that you have H-DXM+ (protonated DXM) and the citrate negative ion with it. They are stuck together in solid form and split in a liquid swimming around freely.

If you have gelcaps with a DXM salt, most often encountered as the HBr then adding pure citric acid to it does not make the Br- go away.

But on a sidenote, with sensible dosages of DXM the toxic threshold for bromide is not reached so theoretically there is nothing to worry about.

Oh and the only way to make real DXM citrate is to make DXM freebase from a DXM salt, isolate that and salt it again with citric acid. That way, by means of the isolation step you get rid of the HBr and therefore the Br-.

Hope this makes sense to you, or perhaps I am explaining what you already know and misinterpreting what you said :)
Click to expand...


I know about how to get rid of the Br-, I was more concerned about the bromide ions having an affect on my body, whether or not it's at the toxic level I think I'd like to avoid having bromide in my body altogether.

I was wondering, considering Bromide ions can't be good for the body, if the citrate salt would be better. The FAQ suggests that bromide can help reduce potential lesions because it's a CNS depressant, is that the only reason why he would suggest avoiding using an extract eliminating br- ions? In which case using the dxm citrate with a small amount of alcohol would be better overall to avoid the bromide, I think.
 
Well it depends on the dosages in which you use DXM. If they are ultra high then maybe think about conversion. If they are within bounds then I really wouldn't worry about the bromide. "They can't be good for the body" is not an argument whatsoever, I'm sure that in food there are enough of them and they pose no problem if you just don't exaggerate it. There is the HBr salt in normal DXM medicine preparations, do you really think they would put that in there if it was bad when there are so many other anionic counterparts to use?

I do not know of another reason to avoid extract / freebase other than that it might not be absorbed as well?

So unless we're talking big doses and serious frequencies I personally wouldn't bother with the conversion you mentioned. If you are so (IMO overly) worried about it I would reconsider using DXM at all instead of investigating things that seem hardly worth anything, if at all...
 
Solipsis said:
Well it depends on the dosages in which you use DXM. If they are ultra high then maybe think about conversion. If they are within bounds then I really wouldn't worry about the bromide. "They can't be good for the body" is not an argument whatsoever, I'm sure that in food there are enough of them and they pose no problem if you just don't exaggerate it. There is the HBr salt in normal DXM medicine preparations, do you really think they would put that in there if it was bad when there are so many other anionic counterparts to use?

I do not know of another reason to avoid extract / freebase other than that it might not be absorbed as well?

So unless we're talking big doses and serious frequencies I personally wouldn't bother with the conversion you mentioned. If you are so (IMO overly) worried about it I would reconsider using DXM at all instead of investigating things that seem hardly worth anything, if at all...
Click to expand...



I'm sure the bromide isn't bad at all in the trace amounts it might be in certan foods that I might eat once in a while, or for the occasional cough the robitussin company expects people to have, but I'm doing doses of 700-900mg of DXM HBr compared to the 30-60mg they expect people to do. I also weigh less than 120 so it's even more potent for me.

I've been re-evaluating all the dxm I've been doing and I think it would be in my best interest to prevent all kinds of adverse effects that could possibly harm me from doing dxm. I have a feeling that most of the long term effects could be from things other than the dxm itself, like how people drink shit loads of syrup and end up with kidney problems. It's probably the massive amounts of syrup rather than the dxm that is causing it. I might be being overly cautious, but I'll feel much better knowing I'm doing all I can to make it as safe as possible.
 
DXM = 271,4 g/mol
HBr = 80,91 g/mol and Br = 79,9
DXM HBr = 352,3 g/mol so 23% of it is the Br

Take 1000 mg and you'd get 230 mg Br

Toxic symptoms appear to be rarely seen under 50 mg/dl blood

Say you have quite a small amount of blood, 45 dl

That would give 2250 mg Br as a boundary to watch, as you can see with
the doses you take that is 10% of an amount you should even begin to
worry about it.
Of course chronic toxicity is always an issue but I think you would almost
have to be a (semi)daily user of 1000 mg DXM to achieve something like
it and even then it would be a feat indeed.

Fine I can't tell you that with a 100% certainty this would never ever be
a problem but like I said before if you do that much that often
you should focus on getting help!!! I don't care about what is scientifically
proven about the physical harm but not bromide but rather DXM itself will
seriously fuck you up.

If you still think that you will avoid nastiness by going through conversion
go right ahead but make sure that you work perfectly clean with solvents
otherwise you will have to deal with alternative kinds of toxicity.

I have also found a governments evaluation on bromide and they say a
person of 120 lb can safely ingest 60 mg daily. But bear in mind govern-
ments assume a ridiculously big margin of safety, no kidding. It's logical
they want to protect the people but its not exactly reasonable. 230 mg
still seems okay, still... keep some days in between because its just not
healthy at all to take DXM that often.

Ugh :|
 
Last edited:
dxm neurotoxicity was only shown intravenously in mice and has no application to oral use in a conscious human being
 
I'm not doing it that often, once a week usually but I'm taking a month long break.

Even if dxm doesn't cause neurotoxicity there is obviously something happening with chronic abusers, and I'm just thinking about all the things that could contribute to it that I could avoid. Like drinking a nice amount of water during the trip so it doesn't overload your kidneys, taking various supplements, avoiding others, taking the bromide out of it and the oil from the syrup/cough gels, taking a GABA agonist at the comedown.

Even if I'm being overly cautious about my health, I prefer it that way. I don't mind taking the extra effort to do these things.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top